Should differently able people have children?

theg81der · 26-01-2012 11:41PM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Sounds pretty judgmental to me.

Right again - can a 6/7/8/9/10 year old decide and consent to having a baby? because that to me equates to this woman, I cannot see how it is any different! There is a reason there is an age of consent and laws to protect children.

Stripey Cat · 27-01-2012 12:21AM

This woman is not that age though. She is a grown up the same as you.

Do you think people with learning difficulties and mental disabilities are effectively children?

northern lights · 27-01-2012 12:54AM

theg81der wrote: »

Right again - can a 6/7/8/9/10 year old decide and consent to having a baby? because that to me equates to this woman, I cannot see how it is any different! There is a reason there is an age of consent and laws to protect children.

With reference to this particular woman, she had IVF in order to conceive and thus both herself and her husband would have been assessed by the NHS before being deemed suitable to have the procedure.
She may have cognitive difficulties but having watched her there's absolutely no way I'd compare her to a 6/7/8/9/10 year old!

Liam Byrne · 27-01-2012 01:02AM

Define "differently able" though....

.....lots of people who don't have physical disabilities seem to be lacking in intellect or cop on or decency - or in some cases a wish to raise children properly.

What about those who have no interest in contributing to society and are all about taking what they can get ?

Should we ban them too? They are "differently able" to me!

Because those are the traits that will get passed on, whereas a physical or mental disability is rarely passed on, unless it's genetic.

Where do you draw the line ?

Seachmall · 27-01-2012 01:11AM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

This woman is not that age though. She is a grown up the same as you.

Do you think people with learning difficulties and mental disabilities are effectively children?

I would imagine mental/intellectual maturity is more important than physical maturity when raising children.

A 40 year old woman with the intellectual capabilities of a young child is, presumably, as capable to raise children as a young child would be.

mattjack · 27-01-2012 01:42AM

minnie me wrote: »

finally...someone makes sense...well said !!

who ? .....................hello ? anybody here ?

JustAThought · 27-01-2012 07:56AM

I remember " daring" to watch a documentary on this on C4 a few years back. I couldnt believe it had been allowed but watched it. It was brilliantly done , really insightful . Thou it painted a grim picture for the lifelong carers of those who were adamant they wanted babies when their families were adamant they couldn't cope & the burden would fall to them; again.
I think my take-away was that it depends on the individual circumstances & abilities .
Ans as some previous poster said; Not everyone can afford to pay for 10 or 14 years of home support . This is Ireland & not the nhs system. Look at the state the public health "if-you-dare" system in in. Listen to the terrible stories on medical cards & basic social care services for the most profoundly medically needy let alone mentally needy on the radio at the moment. Do you think this system can be trusted to take any more, or could be trusted with the potential out of hours support that a little baby might need.

Sittingpretty · 27-01-2012 08:23AM

Nothing of what you have said changes the fact that you are still merely speculating on this lady's ability. It was not made clear in the program, yet you have judged her to be lacking. Whether or not you like the label, this is judgemental.

I saw the program myself and in contrast I was very moved by it. Given the limited info it appeared to me that all was sound with the family and help was available when and if required.

Your comment that it made you feel "sick" would indicate to me that you are uncomfortable with disability. This is however an assumption on my part, totally open to correction. Would you feel the same way if heaven forbid your own child had a disability?

The "sick" remark actually made me feel a little sick. I think maybe you expected a lot more people to share your abject horror.

Sittingpretty · 27-01-2012 08:35AM

northern lights wrote: »

Peanut2011 wrote: »

OP,

After reading your post I could not help but post back. You are passing the judgement on someone who appears to have difficulties in speaking. You have no idea how mentally capable she is.

From what I have seen, she has no problems getting her message across. Might not be as quick as you might be but that does not say she won't be able to look after the child.

Oh boy, where do I start here! So you are saying that she should not have a child just cos she can't manage it herself? "What if something happened to the husband?"

HANG on! Are you saying than that single parents also should not be allowed?? What if something happens to that ONE parent?

If she was on her own having this baby I would say she would need to think hard if she could do everything herself, but you have 2 parents here who are more than willing to bend backwards to have this child and would do anything they could for it.

I would say they will probably give more to that child than many of the parents out there. How many times we see people who are proper unfit to have kids, just cos they are "healthy" in your eyes it seems it's ok to have the kids.

If anyone could show how this child would be in any more of a danger than any other family I could understand the reactions. There is no proof they can't handle this.

I would even say they should be an example of people who are so determined to live the lives to the full and after all they have gone trough for the past 20 years they are still together and never gave up hope!

They are doing all they can to ensure this child will be looked after!

What is wrong with the society today?? People like this are judged like they are for what reason??

I am very disappointed to see how people are very quick to jump to judging them. How many children are born every year across the world to alcoholics, drug addicts and people who are generally not fit to look after them, but hey these people appear "normal" and no one even looks at them twice. How many kids are abused in their own homes because of the parents who would not do half as much as these are doing to ensure the child gets all the care it needs, but yet, no one ever finds out as again they appear "normal" in public.

I really hope people can step back and try to put themselves in the other peoples shoes before passing judgement.

What if you had a child tomorrow and was in the car accident that left you disabled in some way shortly afterwards. Would you say you are unfit to look after the child even if your husband could and ask social services to take the child away??

Couldn't have put it more succinctly myself, great post peanut2011.

Have to admit I'd tears in my eyes watching that last night, fair play to both of them. What a devoted, loving and commited couple. Have no doubts at all that their daughter will grow up knowing she's very much loved and wanted unlike the other couple in the same show whose disappointment at having another daughter was so sad to see. To ring your son on and apologise to him for having another sister was awful imo.
I know whose child I'd much rather be when, as a grown-up, I look back at that programme...

Absolutely agree, their disappointment at having a girl was palpable, I'm sure the child will be much loved but when she was born there was an overwhelming sense of "oh no", it was very very hard to watch.

Jimmy Garlic · 27-01-2012 09:01AM

TheZohan wrote: »

This: (NSFW)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCJ4KfePYQU

Catchy tune.

theg81der · 27-01-2012 09:11AM

Sittingpretty wrote: »

Nothing of what you have said changes the fact that you are still merely speculating on this lady's ability. It was not made clear in the program, yet you have judged her to be lacking. Whether or not you like the label, this is judgemental.

I saw the program myself and in contrast I was very moved by it. Given the limited info it appeared to me that all was sound with the family and help was available when and if required.

Your comment that it made you feel "sick" would indicate to me that you are uncomfortable with disability. This is however an assumption on my part, totally open to correction. Would you feel the same way if heaven forbid your own child had a disability?

The "sick" remark actually made me feel a little sick. I think maybe you expected a lot more people to share your abject horror.

I don`t know if you have experience with people with mental disabilities but I do so certainly not uncomfortable with them actually love them they`re straighter than most people. I`m not purely speculating on her mental capacity, its an educated guess, and that is why it makes me sick. The same way that if my 12 year old stepdaughter, who I would safely say has more cop on than this lady, came home pregnant I would vomit and be extremely angry if everyone thought this was fine!

Just because social workers etc play along doesn`t mean anything in the world of common bloody sense. As I said earlier the relative I care for left to make her own decision, which is what the social workers say is right, would not urinate, eat, sleep, move, wear clothes, drink, wash.... but she would pull her toenails out and get an infection and probably die.

JustAThought · 27-01-2012 09:19AM

Common sense : )

Now there's a straightforward concept that PC has left long behind.
I doubt that the country would be in the state it is in now if common sense had been applied to a lot of basic concepts.

Good luck !

Fair dues to you for looking after your disabled relation ; that's a big undertaking. : )

tfitzgerald · 27-01-2012 09:25AM

differently abled. I had to read the post to see what that meant, I nearly choked on my black pudding , sorry I mean my african Irish pudding:)

seamus · 27-01-2012 10:35AM

Haelium wrote: »

Eventually we will have to address the issue of degeneration of the human species, the sooner the better.

Do we? What evidence do you have for "degeneration" of the species?

One of the things that evolution gave us human beings is this wonderful sense of superiority. It's great, it's the reason that we take risks, that we push boundaries, that we innovate - because we have an inflated sense of our own self-importance.

This notion that "man is playing God" with his genetics is part of this misplaced superiority complex. We seem to think that we have "disrupted" evolution for human beings. Instead the fact is that this is evolution of human beings. Evolution is a natural process infinitely older than humanity. It is not disruptable or avoidable and cannot be overcome. Evolution acts on species as a whole, not on individuals. If more genetically "inferior" people are surviving today, that's a product of human evolution, not a distortion of it.
Our technological advancement, medical advances, all of it, that's evolution. It's not "playing God" or "interfering with the natural way".

On a slightly related note, though not specifically aimed at your post, the ancient civilisations believed that humans were "de-evolving". The philosophers/naturalists at the time took it as a fact that things were always better in the past. This is a natural human cognitive biaise and fallacy. We always think that things were better in the past, even though they weren't. But they thought that since everyone felt that things were better in the past, then common sense says they must have been. Cognitive biaises were unknown back then - you trusted everything that your brain told you.

They extrapolated this idea back in time, which gave rise to things like the Eden story - since everything is steadily getting worse, then logically at some point in the past, everything must have been perfect. It also gave rise to the "fact" that humans used to be giants - 10 to 15 feet tall - with exceptionally long lifespans of hundreds of years. But since no-one had ever actually seen a giant, they believed that humans were on their downward ebb - small, weak and short-lived and destined to become smaller, weaker, and shorter-lived.

What further cemented this idea was the discovery of prehistoric fossils. Mammoths and the like usually, but occassionally dinosaurs. Since they were unaware of evolution, they didn't even consider that these bones could belong to an ancient animal - as far as they were concerned, every animal that ever existed was alive at that time.
So logically what could these enormous bones be, except the bones of giant men, the ancestors of modern men.

It really fascinated me because it illustrated just how our own beliefs can so strongly shape what we take as "fact" in the world, including the idea that man is "above" evolution and somehow has the power to interfere with it.

Stripey Cat · 27-01-2012 01:00PM

theg81der wrote: »

The same way that if my 12 year old stepdaughter, who I would safely say has more cop on than this lady, came home pregnant I would vomit and be extremely angry if everyone thought this was fine!.

Can I just ask again, do you really believe that people with mental disabilities are just like children?

Seachmall · 27-01-2012 01:15PM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Can I just ask again, do you really believe that people with mental disabilities are just like children?

Nowhere has theg81der implied that.

He(/she?) is talking about a specific case where the person may have the intellectual capacity of a 12 year old. The question being asked is whether that person is fit to raise children.

Some people with mental disabilities do have the mental maturity of children.

Stripey Cat · 27-01-2012 01:39PM

Do you think they have the emotional maturity of children, despite being adults?

Seachmall · 27-01-2012 01:41PM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Do you think they have the emotional maturity of children, despite being adults?

"They" implies you are referring to more than one person. This topic is about one specific instance.

Rephrase your question and someone might answer you, it'll avoid a whole lot of confusion down the line.

Not to mention the attacks of "generalisations" and discrimination that would be inevitable can be avoided right now.

Nyan Cat · 27-01-2012 01:46PM

What I would like to know is why people are assuming she has the mental capacity of a child. She clearly has problems with memory / which are not as bad as they used to be (the husband said) she has problems communicating but she gets herself across anyway. She has weakness on one side of her body. Why does this equate to a childs mental capacity?! There are lots of mental problems that do not relate to - for want of a better word - retardedness.
She seemed together in her head even if she isn't as eloquent as most might be.
She had a road accident at 13. She doesn't have something like downs. And if there is a word or an actual condition. We weren't told.

conorhal · 27-01-2012 02:05PM

newbie2 wrote: »

That lady became disabled after a RTA when she was young. She is perfectly able to communicate her wishes and have a proper conversation with anyone she interacts with. The decision to have a baby was probably a difficult one which herself and her husband discussed. Her husband took 3 months off work to assist her after the birth and they are planning to get a mothers assistant in too. The NHS is a lot better than our Health system and they will be both looked after and given any assistance they need.
She seemed very loving and the midwives had no concern of her parenting abilities.

IMO you can feel any way you like, but preventing people with mental difficulties/dissabilities having children is akin to 1930's central Europe.

I haven't seen the program so I can't comment on this individual persons case, but in the case of a person with Downs Syndrome or an individual who's mental capacity has been benchmarked at that of a child, surely it's wrong?

Be perfectly honest, would you be comfortable leaving a 10 or 12yr old look after your kids if you went on holidays for a week? Even if a supervising adult promised to drop around for a couple of hours a day to supervise the care she provides?

No?

When it comes to allowing the mentally disabled have children, I'm of the opionion that it constitutes little more then child abuse (in both the case of the baby and its parent).

seamus · 27-01-2012 02:13PM

conorhal wrote: »

Be perfectly honest, would you be comfortable leaving a 10 or 12yr old look after your kids if you went on holidays for a week?

No?

When it comes to allowing the mentally disabled have children I'm of the opionion that it constitutes little more then child abuse (in both the case of the baby and its parent).

You're making the wild assumption that all mentally disabled people are only as able as a 10 to 12 year old. (Edit: Sorry, I see you've updated your post)

Some may be, some may be even less capable, some are far more capable, some are only barely disabled.

How do you devise a foolproof method of "measuring" someone's mental ability in order to determine if they're capable to have a child? "Benchmarking" isn't foolproof. It's an indicator. When you're talking about denying someone's human rights, you need to be a little more certain than an indicator.

I really don't think the issue of disabled people having children is something that society needs to be worrying itself about. Is it causing any social problems? Where are the legions of "damaged" children of disabled parents?

(FWIW the woman in that program was way above a child or a teenager. She had memory difficulties and clearly had no inhibitions - when she spoke, she just said what she thought - but was as mentally together as anyone else).

Show Time · 27-01-2012 02:29PM

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

You would have fitted in quite well in Germany back in the time of the Nazi with an attitude like that. God help your child is all i can say.

Cat Melodeon · 27-01-2012 02:38PM

theg81der wrote: »

I don`t know if you have experience with people with mental disabilities but I do so certainly not uncomfortable with them actually love them they`re straighter than most people. I`m not purely speculating on her mental capacity, its an educated guess, and that is why it makes me sick. The same way that if my 12 year old stepdaughter, who I would safely say has more cop on than this lady, came home pregnant I would vomit and be extremely angry if everyone thought this was fine!

If you are actually qualified in the area of mental disability, you will know that there is no such thing as an educated guess when it comes to acquired brain injury. You will know that a person's mental capacity cannot be assessed based on a tv program of 48 minutes length in which her story takes up less than half of the screen time. You will accept that you cannot possibly evaluate what her abilities are without full access to her medical files and actual interaction with her. But of course you know all that, as someone with experience mental disabilities.

Acquired brain injury can be compared in some respects to a stroke. A person may seem 'slow' or uncommunicative when in fact their reactions and responses are simply impaired. Rehabilitation is often possible. The effects do not always disappear. I thought that the way in which this woman expressed herself was along those lines. She possibly used elementary language (some might think childish language) because it is easy to use, first learned and last forgotten. Regardless, what she was saying was appropriate, suggesting that she had full understanding of events.

I think you are confusing 'childlike' with 'childish'. It is very easy to conflate disability with lack of cop on or judgement, but that is totally unfair. I'm guilty of it myself - I heard Colm Murray doing horse racing commentary earlier this year and joked that he must have spent too much time in the hospitality tent. I was pretty disgusted with myself when I realised he had motor neuron disease. If you've seen any video footage of Gabby Gifford, the US Congresswoman shot in the head last year, you would see someone who can barely talk or walk but who is still the woman she used to be behind those limitations. And as for IQ tests as a test of intelligence or parenting ability - they mean nothing, they're simply a test of how good you are at IQ tests.

As to your other question - are you being unPC - yes, you are being unPC but that sounds like a cop out on your part, as unPC doesn't quite cut it. You are being judgemental for assessing someone's abilities on the basis of a tv show, immensely rude for your response to it and pretty silly for suggesting that other people's less-than-ideal or otherwise complicated pregnancies are enough to make you actually throw up.

conorhal · 27-01-2012 03:01PM

seamus wrote: »

You're making the wild assumption that all mentally disabled people are only as able as a 10 to 12 year old. (Edit: Sorry, I see you've updated your post)

Some may be, some may be even less capable, some are far more capable, some are only barely disabled.

How do you devise a foolproof method of "measuring" someone's mental ability in order to determine if they're capable to have a child? "Benchmarking" isn't foolproof. It's an indicator. When you're talking about denying someone's human rights, you need to be a little more certain than an indicator.

I really don't think the issue of disabled people having children is something that society needs to be worrying itself about. Is it causing any social problems? Where are the legions of "damaged" children of disabled parents?

(FWIW the woman in that program was way above a child or a teenager. She had memory difficulties and clearly had no inhibitions - when she spoke, she just said what she thought - but was as mentally together as anyone else).

Aye, I did a quick edit to my post to clarify my position, it was far too sweeping a statement, we are of course talking about degrees of disability.

There aren't legions of "damaged" children of disabled parents because it’s generally pretty rare that intellectually disabled people actually have children. But there are those out there that would insist that a Down's adult has every right to have and raise their own children. Personally I think that's just wrong.
What I did see a couple of months back on the BBC was a documentary about ‘Brittan’s Youngest Carers’. It profiled children, often barely in their teens that functioned as their lone parents primary care provider, typically for adults with degenerative diseases. I was amazed at how mature, selfless and compassionate these young people were, but I the same time I was heartbroken for them. It seemed an awful burden to bare for a kid that should be out playing with other children.

Having read your description of the particular woman’s disability, I really don't know how her husband could have agreed to having children. What if somebody with memory impairment forgets that she has left a child in the bath? Or a person who's brain injury means that they have little of no impulse control shakes a baby to death in a fit of anger?
Whatever about an individuals human rights, children have rights too and I wouldn’t like to see the right of one supersede the other.
Personally I'd never consider having children myself in those circumstances, it would seem selfish to me.

theg81der · 27-01-2012 04:07PM

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Acquired brain injury can be compared in some respects to a stroke. A person may seem 'slow' or uncommunicative when in fact their reactions and responses are simply impaired. Rehabilitation is often possible. The effects do not always disappear. I thought that the way in which this woman expressed herself was along those lines. She possibly used elementary language (some might think childish language) because it is easy to use, first learned and last forgotten. Regardless, what she was saying was appropriate, suggesting that she had full understanding of events.

I think you are confusing 'childlike' with 'childish'. It is very easy to conflate disability with lack of cop on or judgement, but that is totally unfair. I'm guilty of it myself - I heard Colm Murray doing horse racing commentary earlier this year and joked that he must have spent too much time in the hospitality tent. I was pretty disgusted with myself when I realised he had motor neuron disease. If you've seen any video footage of Gabby Gifford, the US Congresswoman shot in the head last year, you would see someone who can barely talk or walk but who is still the woman she used to be behind those limitations. And as for IQ tests as a test of intelligence or parenting ability - they mean nothing, they're simply a test of how good you are at IQ tests.

I said earlier I have envigilated exams for several people with brain damage who, although they appear slow to others, I knew were not and I could tell the difference. It seems very obvious to me and its beyond me how the rest of you can`t tell but like you said this is a common mistake that you made yourself with Colm Murray - this is not a mistake I have ever made and usually am the one correcting other people when they mistakenly assume someone has consumed drugs or alcohol so I`m sorry if you think I`m judgemental I know I`m not. This lady is nothing like them at all, she does not fit into that category.

Showtime thats below the belt how dare you mention my child and insinuate I`m a nazi. God help your child if you live in dream land like you obviously do, this is just Pc-ness gone mad!never mind read over your previous posts and clearly no point bothering lol.

mattjack · 27-01-2012 04:58PM

theg81der wrote: »

I said earlier I have envigilated exams for several people with brain damage who, although they appear slow to others, I knew were not and I could tell the difference. It seems very obvious to me and its beyond me how the rest of you can`t tell but like you said this is a common mistake that you made yourself with Colm Murray - this is not a mistake I have ever made and usually am the one correcting other people when they mistakenly assume someone has consumed drugs or alcohol so I`m sorry if you think I`m judgemental I know I`m not. This lady is nothing like them at all, she does not fit into that category.

Showtime thats below the belt how dare you mention my child and insinuate I`m a nazi. God help your child if you live in dream land like you obviously do, this is just Pc-ness gone mad!never mind read over your previous posts and clearly no point bothering lol.

I appreciate what you're saying,but when you address us like the I've underlined you're going to get attacked.Most of us are no differant to you ,other than having differant opinions.

I can even see you may have had a bad experience with a social worker regarding your relative, I work occasionally with social workers,key workers etc and study with others and I see all kinds ..good and bad.

I didnt see the programme so I cant comment on it.

BTW best of luck with your new delivery.

Show Time · 27-01-2012 05:47PM

theg81der wrote: »

I said earlier I have envigilated exams for several people with brain damage who, although they appear slow to others, I knew were not and I could tell the difference. It seems very obvious to me and its beyond me how the rest of you can`t tell but like you said this is a common mistake that you made yourself with Colm Murray - this is not a mistake I have ever made and usually am the one correcting other people when they mistakenly assume someone has consumed drugs or alcohol so I`m sorry if you think I`m judgemental I know I`m not. This lady is nothing like them at all, she does not fit into that category.

Showtime thats below the belt how dare you mention my child and insinuate I`m a nazi. God help your child if you live in dream land like you obviously do, this is just Pc-ness gone mad!never mind read over your previous posts and clearly no point bothering lol.

You seem to be all for eugenics the way you come across as looking down your nose at people with learning difficulties or who are a bit less different then the social norn. I want to put this to you how would you like to be told within minutes of your child being born that they would have an IQ of less then 75 and it is best for the gene pool to remove your child's ability to procreate or better still just remove the child permanently so it won't be a burden on the state and all the hard working people who will have to pay for said child.
My posting history should have nothing to do with calling you out as knowing next to nothing on this subject. Also i was only using your own bundle of joy to be as an example much the same way as you held up that woman in the opening post as an example so nothing personal ok?

theg81der · 27-01-2012 06:04PM

Show Time wrote: »

You seem to be all for eugenics the way you come across as looking down your nose at people with learning difficulties or who are a bit less different then the social norn. I want to put this to you how would you like to be told within minutes of your child being born that they would have an IQ of less then 75 and it is best for the gene pool to remove your child's ability to procreate or better still just remove the child permanently so it won't be a burden on the state and all the hard working people who will have to pay for said child.
My posting history should have nothing to do with calling you out as knowing next to nothing on this subject. Also i was only using your own bundle of joy to be as an example much the same way as you held up that woman in the opening post as an example so nothing personal ok?

You can`t sum up a persons value in their IQ and the way I think of things maybe some people with mental disabilities could teach some of us a thing or two but of course this is never something anyone wants for their child. I will love my child no matter what and I believe you can judge a society based on how they care for the people not capable of caring for themselves.

There is a point however when common sense prevails. This lady doesn`t have a learning disability she is mentally disabled BIG difference.

Very personal I am an adult with the full capacity to make decisions so completely different and bearing no relationship to this discussion.

Cat Melodeon · 27-01-2012 09:05PM

theg81der wrote: »

I said earlier I have envigilated exams for several people with brain damage who, although they appear slow to others, I knew were not and I could tell the difference. It seems very obvious to me and its beyond me how the rest of you can`t tell but like you said this is a common mistake that you made yourself with Colm Murray - this is not a mistake I have ever made and usually am the one correcting other people when they mistakenly assume someone has consumed drugs or alcohol so I`m sorry if you think I`m judgemental I know I`m not. This lady is nothing like them at all, she does not fit into that category.

Seriously pet, invigilating exams? That's the basis of your experience and your 'educated guess' regarding the mental capacity of someone you have never met? Counts as zero in terms of medical diagnosis of a brain injury I'm afraid. Which just leaves you with an offensive opinion rather than an informed one.

theg81der · 27-01-2012 09:25PM

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Seriously pet, invigilating exams? That's the basis of your experience and your 'educated guess' regarding the mental capacity of someone you have never met? Counts as zero in terms of medical diagnosis of a brain injury I'm afraid. Which just leaves you with an offensive opinion rather than an informed one.

You really should read more than one post before you reply.

Should differently able people have children?

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