Should differently able people have children?

theg81der

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

Mr Benevolent

If she's legally able to get married she's able to have a baby. What makes it wrong, btw?

Max Power1

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

Un PC? Yes

Wrong - Totally not wrong IMO

stupidusername

It would probably depend on the type of disability,but tbh it sounds wrong. Not out of anything else but concern for her. And then of course the baby.can she take care of a baby? Can she even take care of herself?

Guill

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

:eek:


Are we saying that all mental disabilities are equal?

im invisible

Im double jointed, does that make me differently abled?

mikemac1

When I was a lad we said handicapped

Then it was disabled

Now it's differently abled it seems

Chuck Stone

As long as zee kinder has gut genetic heritage zen I cannot see vhat ze problem is.

theg81der

Guill wrote: »

:eek:


Are we saying that all mental disabilities are equal?

God no! My relative is clearly not capable of consent, this lady is more capable but just about, just something about it turns my stomach, it just seems wrong. Like if you saw a 10 year old in labour.

ElleEm

I saw a few minutes of the show last night and that woman seemed more about 6/7 cognitively . One thing is for sure, that baby will be so loved.

With added supports, most disabled People could successfully raise children.

Zulu

How very dare you.

El Weirdo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

As long as zee kinder has gut genetic heritage zen I cannot see vhat ze problem is.

Nicely slipped in there.;)

theg81der

ElleEm wrote: »

I saw a few minutes of the show last night and that woman seemed more about 6/7 cognitively . One thing is for sure, that baby will be so loved.

With added supports, most disabled People could successfully raise children.

Are you serious? How can it be a good thing? Is a 6/7 year old capable of consent?

mikemac1

Chuck Stone wrote: »

As long as zee kinder has gut genetic heritage zen I cannot see vhat ze problem is.

The USA were leaders and very enthusiastic when it came to eugenics back then

Don't single out one country

newbie2

That lady became disabled after a RTA when she was young. She is perfectly able to communicate her wishes and have a proper conversation with anyone she interacts with. The decision to have a baby was probably a difficult one which herself and her husband discussed. Her husband took 3 months off work to assist her after the birth and they are planning to get a mothers assistant in too. The NHS is a lot better than our Health system and they will be both looked after and given any assistance they need.
She seemed very loving and the midwives had no concern of her parenting abilities.

IMO you can feel any way you like, but preventing people with mental difficulties/dissabilities having children is akin to 1930's central Europe.

Seachmall

mikemac1 wrote: »

The USA were leaders and very enthusiastic when it came to eugenics back then

Don't single out one country

I do believe it was a subtle reference to a common internet joke.

I could be wrong, made me lol anyway.

El Weirdo

Seachmall wrote: »

I do believe it was a subtle reference to a common internet joke.

I could be wrong, made me lol anyway.

That's what I got, anyway.

stupidusername

It's fine saying the child will be loved,and the father took time off but all that means shag all if she cannot take care of the baby by herself. The assistant they'll get,how many hours a week is she assigned? If something happened the husband could she manage by herself? These are valid concerns for anyone having children,and should be considered bigger concerns for a mother with a mental disability

Stiffler2

No

Mink

I don't think your un-PC theg81der, it's a valid concern. I saw that show & from what I saw, my feeling is she'll be okay.

The hubby is all there mentally (as far as I could tell) & works ten mins away. I think the fact that he was off for 2-3 mths after the birth, he would then be in a position to judge how much she can care for the baby on her own and then organise mother assistants hours from there. He would be able to observe her all day during those weeks and see how she does. It's not like they are throwing her in the deep end and hoping for the best.

I think in the case of that show, there is enough of a support system there that it will work out fine. But I think if it were to come up with another mentally disabled person, it should be looked at on a case by case basis. There are so many varying degrees of disability that it would be so hard to judge what's a danger and what's not.

If there was a mentally disabled person living on their own and didn't have a full time carer (such as a partner who was all there mentally) then I think it would be very risky as they don't have that full time live-in support system.

And in line with what a poster said earlier, the NHS sure looks way better!!! Just the fact that they have birthing pool rooms in the hospital and the option is even there for mothers is amazing... sorry off topic!

I Heart Internet

I watched this show and certainly had concerns about how things would work out for them. Having watched it, I think:

1) They loved each other as any couple would - more than most - and were expressive about loving and caring for each other. They had been together 25 years.
2) They were very aware that it would be difficult to look after the baby. The lady was VERY aware of her own limitations - forgetfullness, physical handicaps, etc. She seemed very concerned "they" would take the baby off her.
3) The husband was a shy but sensible guy and knew he had a back up plan if his wife couldn't handle it. He was very clear that any assistance would "help her look after our baby - NOT look after the baby for her.
4) They had a lovely home and he had a full time job.

So, in the end I felt that the baby would be loved and looked after properly. I did feel a small bit sad for the husband - just because a lot of pressure was, naturally, on him to look out for both of them. I hope they have good family and friends but we weren't told about this. They both seemed smitten by their little girl.

So best of luck to them. No two cases would be the same I'd say but these two people seemed to be good eggs and would make good parents despite her disabilities.

I couldn't help think they were more prepared and better suited to parenthood than the txting, 18 y/o little girl who was in last week and her absent/idiot inseminator (it seemed like they they would have a problem picking each other out in a crowd tbh).

TheZohanS

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

This: (NSFW)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCJ4KfePYQU

Vanolder

There are degrees of disability , but I don't think people with severe mental disabilities should. It's not fair on the child , and who foots the bill only the tax payer in order for home help to be provided.

I was thinking about this issue, or at least the whole issue of caring for those that have disabilities recently... Now it was only a thought experiment, not my feelings, but is caring for people with physical and mental disabilities a drain on our society?

I was thinking about the animal world, and how survival of the fittest sustains and drives this world on and then I got to us and how out of sync we are with the natural world.

When you think of the time and money involved in caring and which could be used else where , and the already over populated world we live in, how exactly does caring for the disabled advance us as a species?

Again, just a thought experiment. Before I get an onslaught of abuse.

seamus

Vanolder wrote: »

There are degrees of disability , but I don't think people with severe mental disabilities should. It's not fair on the child , and who foots the bill only the tax payer in order for home help to be provided.

So where do you draw the line between "severe" and "mild" mental disability? How do perform a battery of tests and boil them down a "parental suitability score" which determines whether someone should be allowed to have a child?

And quite logically if you were apply criteria for child-rearing to disabled people, you would apply it to perfectly able people too. The woman on that programme last night was far more suitable to be a mother than many of the fully-able scrotebags you see dropping future wasters into the world.

When you think of the time and money involved in caring and which could be used else where , and the already over populated world we live in, how exactly does caring for the disabled advance us as a species?

How exactly does working nine to five in an office advance us as a species? How does paying the dole advance us as a species?

How do you define a disabled person as being a "drain on the species". Disabled doesn't mean "incapable of anything", it's simply a limitation which exists on that person. We all have limitations, every single one of us. Disabled people are just more severely limited than the rest of us. But that doesn't mean they're incapable of contributing equally to society.

I Heart Internet

Vanolder wrote: »

There are degrees of disability , but I don't think people with severe mental disabilities should. It's not fair on the child , and who foots the bill only the tax payer in order for home help to be provided.

I was thinking about this issue, or at least the whole issue of caring for those that have disabilities recently... Now it was only a thought experiment, not my feelings, but is caring for people with physical and mental disabilities a drain on our society?

I was thinking about the animal world, and how survival of the fittest sustains and drives this world on and then I got to us and how out of sync we are with the natural world.

When you think of the time and money involved in caring and which could be used else where , and the already over populated world we live in, how exactly does caring for the disabled advance us as a species?

Again, just a thought experiment. Before I get an onslaught of abuse.

Can I stop you right there? You're about two posts away from being called a this guy.

I see that you're playing devil's advocate here though - fair play. I think the society that would not look after its weakest members is not a society in which one would enjoy living in for long. I'm sure there are examples where we don't do this already and I think these examples are rightly perceived as injustices.

flanders1979

Its a bit of a risk. Anyone remember that terrible case in Wexford a few years back. I hate to draw comparison but nobody would like to see a repeat of that.

John Doe1

as long as they give birth in dachau.............I hear they have excellent midwives:)

fedor.2.

TheZohan wrote: »

This: (NSFW)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCJ4KfePYQU

Oh god:eek:

Peanut2011

OP,

After reading your post I could not help but post back. You are passing the judgement on someone who appears to have difficulties in speaking. You have no idea how mentally capable she is.

From what I have seen, she has no problems getting her message across. Might not be as quick as you might be but that does not say she won't be able to look after the child.

stupidusername wrote: »

It's fine saying the child will be loved,and the father took time off but all that means shag all if she cannot take care of the baby by herself. The assistant they'll get,how many hours a week is she assigned? If something happened the husband could she manage by herself? These are valid concerns for anyone having children,and should be considered bigger concerns for a mother with a mental disability

Oh boy, where do I start here! So you are saying that she should not have a child just cos she can't manage it herself? "What if something happened to the husband?"

HANG on! Are you saying than that single parents also should not be allowed?? What if something happens to that ONE parent?

If she was on her own having this baby I would say she would need to think hard if she could do everything herself, but you have 2 parents here who are more than willing to bend backwards to have this child and would do anything they could for it.

I would say they will probably give more to that child than many of the parents out there. How many times we see people who are proper unfit to have kids, just cos they are "healthy" in your eyes it seems it's ok to have the kids.

If anyone could show how this child would be in any more of a danger than any other family I could understand the reactions. There is no proof they can't handle this.

I would even say they should be an example of people who are so determined to live the lives to the full and after all they have gone trough for the past 20 years they are still together and never gave up hope!

They are doing all they can to ensure this child will be looked after!

What is wrong with the society today?? People like this are judged like they are for what reason??

I am very disappointed to see how people are very quick to jump to judging them. How many children are born every year across the world to alcoholics, drug addicts and people who are generally not fit to look after them, but hey these people appear "normal" and no one even looks at them twice. How many kids are abused in their own homes because of the parents who would not do half as much as these are doing to ensure the child gets all the care it needs, but yet, no one ever finds out as again they appear "normal" in public.

I really hope people can step back and try to put themselves in the other peoples shoes before passing judgement.

What if you had a child tomorrow and was in the car accident that left you disabled in some way shortly afterwards. Would you say you are unfit to look after the child even if your husband could and ask social services to take the child away??

Noopti

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

You should maybe consider getting all the facts before passing judgement on someone you saw on a TV programme having a baby. You have no idea of her mental age, you have no idea of her capabilities. Did you even watch the show to its conclusion? She seemed to be doing a pretty good job of looking after the baby to me, so what if she requires some assistance.

What is to stop me judging you unable to care for your future baby? Do you earn enough money? Are you intelligent enough to make proper decisions for it? Can you assure a good quality of life for your child forever? Will you always make the right decisions for your child?

I won't do that, and I suggest you reserve your judgement of the woman on that show before deciding to feel sick because she is having a baby.

hightower1

mikemac1 wrote: »

When I was a lad we said handicapped

Then it was disabled

Now it's differently abled it seems

Im all for being sensitive about handicapped people but this is going too far, stating the average handicapped person is differently abled as compared to the average able bodied person (by default being the majority) is simply gramatically incorrect. By and large comparing the physical abilities of the average handicapped person to the abilities of the average abled bodied person we will find that the abled bodied person can perform all the physical tasks a handicapped person can do and more meaning that gramaticaly .... the handicapped average is not "differently" abled but in fact "dis" abled.

My brother is hadnicapped and I would take more offence to someone saying he is "differenctly abled" as opposed to having a handicap. Dont sugar coat a physical disability and take away a sense of achievemnt they may have by beating any physical hadnicap by undermining that with flowery names like "differently abled" , give people who overcome a handicap the credit they diserve.

lastlaugh

It would be very unfair for the children if their parents had/were;

Down Syndrome
Very low IQ
Very emotionally immature

Being physically disabled would be very challenging for some, but a physical handicap is a completely different kettle of fish than an acute mental handicap...

Chuck Stone

mikemac1 wrote: »

The USA were leaders and very enthusiastic when it came to eugenics back then

Lots of countries were at it. The Swedish were still sterilising people in the mid 1970's. State eugenics programs and forced sterilisation are a shameful period in human history imo. Thankfully the Nazis stigmatized all things eugenics related.

Don't single out one country

I was killing two feeble-minded people birds with one stone i.e. the Godwin thing and Nazi eugenics program as was picked up by more astute readers.

What did you want me to do? Write out the same accented line for every country who partook in eugenics programs?

Edit: The whole area of deciding who gets to have children is an ethical nightmare.

44leto

We all have a disability, mine is grammar, but I am good at maths, so we are all differently abled.

Although absolutely unenforcible not everyone should be allowed have a child and I am talking about the very abled junkies and the likes.

whatdoicare

I'm very much in two minds about this - yes, she probably will get all the support she needs and fingers crossed there are no cuts in budgets and nothing ever happens the husband.

What I'm worried about is if all these things go wrong, what will happen the child? How will the mother cope if she's left to her own devices?

Also, another worry is when the child is growing up?

I know a few (a definite three) situations of adults my age where the mother wasn't mentally up to the mark -they would have been considered a bit slow in my time - not even as bad as the lady described in the tv show and all able bodied - all of these mothers had children on a nearly yearly basis - the average family being of six children.

From the outside all looks grand - no children dead and all now grown up and educated. But I know for a fact that it's not the case at all!

My own mother tells how if it wasn't for her and neighbours surrounding one mother that two of her children would be seriously hearing impaired and one would be dead as the poor woman failed to recognise when they were seriously ill and her husband was away at work pretty much all the time.

She often left the children as toddlers to mind themselves on the street locked out of the house while she disappeared off somewhere or into town for a few hours - my own grandad often saw this and used to have them sit and play in his car with us while he pretended to potter about the engine - he was terrified something would happen to them. (this was 30 years ago before social services and when everyone was terrified of institutions - the laundries were still up and running where I am for another ten years)

Another mother I know was widowed when the eldest child was fair young. Again, another family of six. The stories my friend tells me of the things that happened when they were growing up makes my jaw drop!

To this day her youngest children are suffering as they both have some kind of bi polar and she refuses to get help for them - my friend says that the older children do their best to get the youngest two help but the mother comes along and undoes it and she's legally entitled to.

All she wants is for the youngest to be home so she won't be alone and she's making a bad situation almost hellish. My friend, as you can imagine, is beyond frustrated! He himself went years not knowing he was dyslexic and he was well into his teens before it was spotted.


The third family had all the help in the world and got everything they needed but the children got bullied in school because mammy was slow - and children hear parents talk - and had a real tough time of it. I'm friends with the second youngest daughter and she talks about it being real tough not having a mother who, although she loves her, can't give her the support she needs.

She can't talk to her about anything and she just had a child of her own recently and couldn't rely on her mam at all - she was pretty much asking me and my mam for support - which is unfair and not everyone is lucky enough to make friends with people willing to give up their time to support a new mother.


So, looking at it from that perspective - although it's great the mother on the tv is getting support and all that - I still think it's unfair on the child, there's no way that the mother could give a child the emotional support it would need or be capable of spotting those little signs of everything not being okay with a child.

I see my neighbour, who has full mental capabilities, she has to be on her toes 24/7 to keep her kids out of trouble and to find out if something is bothering them. These things are important to a child growing up - no support staff is going to go above and beyond and be a mammy.

It's very tough to be a parent and I'm not convinced knowing the effects on adult children that someone who has mental disabilities is going to be able to fill that role.

seamus

lastlaugh wrote: »

It would be very unfair for the children if their parents had/were;
Down Syndrome
Very low IQ
Very emotionally immature

It's worth noting that Down's Syndrome almost universally makes men sterile. Down's women are significantly less fertile but also have bigger problems with neo-natal mortality and miscarriage.
It's actually not that big a discussion point with Down's because it so rarely comes up.

The argument with Down's can actually be applied to "normal" parents carrying a faulty gene. If they stand a 75% (or 100%) chance of a child being born with a fatal or severe abnormality, should they be allowed procreate?

Emotional maturity and IQ again is something which could be examined among the "healthy" population. Plenty of "normal" parents out there who lack the emotional and intellectual intelligence to raise a child.

It's a minefield because disabled people - physically or mentally - are humans like we are with all the equal rights therein. Therefore whatever criteria for restrictions we would apply to them, we must also apply to ourselves.

If we were to restrict them without applying the same tests on ourselves, then we would be making the claim that they are sub-human or otherwise undeserving of equal rights.

theg81der

Peanut and Noopti what qualifies you more than me to judge someone mental age or capacity? I`m not qualified in that area but I have envigilated exams for people with brain damage who have severe difficulty speaking but I knew that they were 100% mentally capable this lady is nothing like them.

I also have 2 relatives, 1 of whom I help to care for, who are mentally handicapped so have dealings with quite a few people with mental difficulties of differing levels this lady is not as good as some of the people who are in the so called "special" centres. I am used to judging where on the scale people from this community are its quite natural to me now.

Look it doesn`t sit well with me if your opinion differs thats fine but that doesn`t make my concerns based on my experience any less valid.

Dudess

The expressions "differently abled" and "less abled" seem pretty patronising IMO.

Duck's hoop

Dudess wrote: »

The expressions "differently abled" and "less abled" seem pretty patronising IMO.

You're right. They are.

Though 'handicapped' is just plain offensive I find, and is commonly used as a pejorative.

Totally acceptable in US it seems, and most people use it out of habit or something.

If there must be a label, 'disabled' or 'person with a disability' is just grand.

Susannahmia

A close family member of mine has an iq of 57. His girlfriend is also intelectually disabled (she's probably a bit smarter than him though).

This guy holds down a job, pays his bills and has never been unemployed. He is well able to go into the citizens relations and find out all his entitlements etc. Tbh although he is slow he is very socially intelligient and has good street smarts. He might only be able to read or do math at the level of an 8 year old but he has a lot more common sense.

They had a baby a few months ago and tbh I was pretty worried at the start. However as time goes on I'm becoming less and less. So far they are doing brilliantly. The child wants for nothing and is being very well looked after by the both of them.

My aunt has employed a woman to come in 4 times a week to help them with the baby and teach them how to care for him. They follow her to the letter and can ring if anything goes wrong. They get extra help and monitering by social services too. They have relatives checking in on them and thankfully they don't really have to worry about money.

So while obviously not the best situation, with help it's working for them. The baby is healthy and happy and couldn't be more loved.

Stripey Cat

All of us are descended from mutants, if you think about it.

Susannahmia

Stripey Cat wrote: »

All of us are descended from mutants, if you think about it.

Just because someone is intellectually disabled doesn't necessarily mean it's genetic. :mad:

Haelium

Stripey Cat wrote: »

All of us are descended from mutants, if you think about it.

Without constant danger to weed out the weak(Physically or mentally) this could be a problem. Eventually we will have to address the issue of degeneration of the human species, the sooner the better. Unfortunately it's a dangerous area ethically to say the least.

benagain

theg81der wrote: »

Hi All

Being pregnant I`m watching one born every minute religiously. Just watching Wednesdays episode now and theres a clearly mentally disabled lady having a baby - she`s married and her hubbys there. I honestly feel sick, its just not right. Obviously completely not talking about physical disabilities just in case anyone thinks this. She seems mentally maybe 10/11 if that.

I have a mentally disabled relative who I help care for and her becoming pregnant is our biggest fear.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Am I un-PC?

the fact u were allowed to post that question is ur answer ???????? omg.

Haelium

benagain wrote: »

the fact u were allowed to post that question is ur answer ???????? omg.

Care to elaborate?

Son Of A Vidic

theg81der wrote: »

I honestly feel sick, its just not right.

Not right? Of course it's not right for you to decide upon who can and can't have children. The Nazi's tried that once and it's a bit of a slippery slope, so let's just stay well back from the edge.

mattjack

I know a young couple who are both intellectually disabled and have a child.They live in supported accommodation and have support workers at various levels helping them get through life.

I deal with them occasionally from time to time , every single day they have challenges to overcome, challenges that you and me would be mundane and ordinary,boring even ..cooking,budgeting their money, travel etc ... their child is cherished, valued and loved so much .

They have zero understanding of the recession,no idea who is in government,nothing concerns them other than their child. ....yet the zest for life they have is incredible, all down to having a child.

benagain

no havnt the mental capasity . ffs

Seachmall

mattjack wrote: »

I know a young couple who are both intellectually disabled and have a child.They live in supported accommodation and have support workers at various levels helping them get through life.

I deal with them occasionally from time to time , every single day they have challenges to overcome, challenges that you and me would be mundane and ordinary,boring even ..cooking,budgeting their money, travel etc ... their child is cherished, valued and loved so much .

They have zero understanding of the recession,no idea who is in government,nothing concerns them other than their child. ....yet the zest for life they have is incredible, all down to having a child.

How is the child?

If it's similarly disabled that could cause issues as it gets older.
If not, then that's a lot of responsibility for a child when they grow up.

I'm not trying to say anything other than there are issues at hand aside from their happiness (not that that's what you were suggesting, I just think it provides a good example for the point).

benagain

no ?? do you

mattjack

Seachmall wrote: »

How is the child?

If it's similarly disabled that could cause issues as it gets older.
If not, then that's a lot of responsibility for a child when they grow up.

I'm not trying to say anything other than there are issues at hand aside from their happiness (not that that's what you were suggesting, I just think it provides a good example for the point).

That's a fair point, there is more than one issue,the child is apparently very bright,doing very well in school and you are right their happiness shouldn,t necessarily be the most relevant point.

They live in supported secure accommodation and the support is for the child as well.