Taoiseach speech in Davros

paddyandy · 27-01-2012 01:19AM

Enda was correct and there was two to blame the borrowers and the lenders . Bertie was ignoring warnings too... so a trio ?

Wider Road · 27-01-2012 02:04AM

kbannon wrote: »

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

I wonder which of the above does Enda himself believe?
Both can't be true, so which is it?
Gilmore will be a crucial figure over the next couple of weeks.

loldog · 27-01-2012 10:05AM

Well it's no mystery, the crowd at Davos know well it was just an ordinary traditional property bubble.

The problem with the Taoiseach's analysis though is that everybody, not just those who "went mad" will be forced to bear the burden of the collapse, which is unjust and may have serious societal consequences further down the road.

.

quietriot · 27-01-2012 10:18AM

His only significant mistake was that he neglected to say some, and seemed to blame everyone for the acts of what will certainly be the few.

The fact that this statement will cause outrage amongst the plebs is more proof, if ever needed, that we've a significant amount of people living in denial, refusing to accept personal responsibility or outright lying over the state we now find ourselves in.

I've found it very hard to find two things in this country in the last few years:
A: People who will admit to having voted for Fianna Fail. I've said elsewhere, nobody seems to have voted for them! Just like George Bush Jnr. I know some people who absolutely voted for him, yet will get quite aggressive in denying it now.

B: People who will admit to having borrowed stupidly, and that they shouldn't have done it. I know plenty of people in negative equity with huge mortgages on tiny apartments and houses that nobody with a bit of sense would have purchased, yet they did in the rush to "own" a property or two, and are now struggling to pay their mortgages and live life. People burdened down with €50k+ personal loan debt that they're struggling to pay. Yet, I find, these people blame the government for the situation they're in and don't see that they've only themselves to blame. They'll happily point the finger at the banks, developers and Government while acting like they'd no part in any of it. Some of the same people, when asked why they bought such properties for such stupid money, when it was obvious they weren't worth anything near it, get aggressive and spout nonsense like "WELL I HAD TO PUT A ROOF OVER MY HEAD DIDN'T I? YOU'D PREFER I WAS HOMELESS HUH!?". The very same gob****es who were spouting that rent was dead money and advising me to buy a property when I just finished the leaving cert. You can only laugh.

There is this push to refuse any personal responsibility in what has went down in this country and as opposed to saying "yeah, I ****ed up", they're calling for the heads of the developers and banks who were, at the end of the day, supplying in reaction to the demand for credit and property.

The banks and their handling was stupid down to the bank retail staff being commissioned and given bonuses for handing out credit wherever they could, in a deregulated environment that was left hanging on a needle point and would topple at the slightest push. However, nobody forced people to take out loans. Nobody.

In fact, they forced themselves or they were "peer pressured" into it. They saw others doing it and went crazy pursuing credit to get what they saw other people getting - an extremely expensive 1 bed apartment in...stepaside!A bmw that was twice the price of those a hop and skip across the water!etc etc.

At the end of the day, some people were absolute fools with their personal finances and the country is now in a terrible state as a result. Yes, there was an overall culture of greed, and the banks and developers went mad trying to make money off this push amongst the plebs for fancy property and cheap credit, however the demand was driven by the consumer and nobody else.

Kenny was right in what he said except that he made it appear that everyone was in on it. Although, in hindsight, if he'd said "some", it would give the same morons with negative equity and debt they can't afford a reason to turn around and say "Yeah! Those bastards ruined the country! Thank God I wasn't one of them! My ridiculous spending was justified! I hope those greedy people going mad on credit get ****ed!". Mind you, from reading boards today, that already appears to be happening.

stackerman · 27-01-2012 10:26AM

For those of you that are saying "It was obvious that there was a bubble building etc etc" . . . . .

Fair play to you and well done. You had the courage of your convictions to not borrow, upgrade your home, move house, give your kids extra things, go on that holiday, change your car, save instead of spend etc etc
Right ?

In fact surely if you knew that there was a crash coming, you must have prepared yourself accordingly. You must have sold your home (if you had one) at the peak, saved your money, and now have cash to buy on the dip, right ??

Of coarse it was a crazy situation !
FYI I was advising young guys in my football club NOT to buy. Wait for the crash and try to buy then. BUT I warned them that they prob would not be able to borrow the money once we got to that place.

And to those smart arses going on about people who bought second houses as pensions. (I didn't FYI). I know a lot of my friends who were (note were) self employed and did just that. Why ? They were trying to take responsibility for their future, not expecting the Tax payer to look after them. S£*t the tax payer cant even do anything for them now, having been self employed. We all know that Pensions are a bloody joke in this country, unless of coarse your lucky enough to be public. Most bloody worthless, and the gov have been happy to sit back and let the companies rip us all off. That is most of the reason, SO many went out and bought a second property. Again, where was the gov regulation to protect the tax payer ?? So we are all at fault (I'll put my hand up and say I was, partly) but the Irish gov and the Banks were BY FAR more responsible. Due to the COMPLETE lack of regulation and care of it's people.
It's the one thing about Ireland now that drives me crazy, we are now a country of armchair economists ! And there are those on their high horses, whom I suspect, are not all that white :rolleyes:

Dempo1 · 27-01-2012 10:29AM

O Edna, Edna, sorry, Enda & you were doing so well.

He looked like a Muppet, sounded like a Muppet and behaved like a Muppet, I cringed at his performance and speech. Seems to me that he is loosing the run of himself with his apparent positive world status.

RichardAnd · 27-01-2012 10:45AM

What he's attempting to do, I believe, is imbue a manner of collective guilt into the populace so that it is easier for them to accept austerity. Unfortunately, what this venal bucolic that we call our leader fails to recognise with that remark, is that a great many of us did not behave in a thrifty manner.

EDIT: Let me just say that I'm not trying to hold myself up as financially astute, I simply was too young to get caught up in the book spending spree. However, I still manage my money well and I take offence at such generalisations.

quietriot · 27-01-2012 10:47AM

stackerman wrote: »

For those of you that are saying "It was obvious that there was a bubble building etc etc" . . . . .

Fair play to you and well done. You had the courage of your convictions to not borrow, upgrade your home, move house, give your kids extra things, go on that holiday, change your car, save instead of spend etc etc
Right ?

You can do a lot of those things without overextending yourself with debt and for quite a fortunate few, those could easily be done on the inflated salaries they received.

However, the big issue is that many overextended themselves with debt, probably to keep up with the spending of those who'd found their salaries rapidly increasing.

Personal spending wasn't the issue, we all have disposable income. Managing one's personal finances is a matter of self-control and just because someone goes "Want a credit card with €20k approved? It'll be niiice!", doesn't mean you should grab at it and then spend every cent of it, which is what we saw a significant amount of people do.

In fact surely if you knew that there was a crash coming, you must have prepared yourself accordingly. You must have sold your home (if you had one) at the peak, saved your money, and now have cash to buy on the dip, right ??

This is a weak argument. If someone had a home that they presumably bought pre-peak and could happily afford, that they were comfortable in and called "home" to their family, why would they take a gamble, sell it and go rent somewhere in the hope of making a few quid when they know they'll have it securely as their home forever?

David McWilliams, along with many others, were screaming that it was just a bubble and not to get caught up in it for quite some time before it all fell apart. Even in his 2006 production "In Search of the Pope's Children" he warned that everything was completely unsustainable and that we were in for trouble if we kept going down the path we'd chosen...and it happened.

People got caught up in the cheap credit and crazy spending lifestyle, they didn't want to listen to "killjoys" telling them not to indulge. That doesn't mean that those who did listen and took a more reasoned approach should have then went and speculated on their own home when they didn't actually need to.

Of coarse it was a crazy situation !

Not really, a bubble is a bubble.

FYI I was advising young guys in my football club NOT to buy. Wait for the crash and try to buy then. BUT I warned them that they prob would not be able to borrow the money once we got to that place.

Taking what you said above, then surely you've a massive stash of money available to invest in all the cheap property now that the market is starting to look like it's bottoming out? Because if I knew such a massive crash was coming, I'd have my money ready to purchase up all the cheap land and property knowing that I'd make a mint when things level off in a decade or two.

And to those smart arses going on about people who bought second houses as pensions. (I didn't FYI).

Sure you've kept all your spare dosh for snapping up the cheap property now haven't you?! Or else how could you let such accurate forecasting skills go to waste?! What is next, oh wise one, for the Irish economy? Or do your palms need to be crossed with silver first?

I know a lot of my friends who were (note were) self employed and did just that. Why ? They were trying to take responsibility for their future, not expecting the Tax payer to look after them. S£*t the tax payer cant even do anything for them now, having been self employed.

Yes well we all know the situation with self-employed people and their lack of entitlements is a joke. I know self-employed people who similarly sank quite a lot of money into what were regarded as safe investments, as a pension fund, only for it all to disappear. It's really unfortunate.

Most bloody worthless, and the gov have been happy to sit back and let the companies rip us all off.

The government are supposed to set the price of goods and services now? Or interfere in the market in such an active way?

I'm glad the Government had nothing to do with the pricing strategy of private companies. Relieved even.

That is most of the reason, SO many went out and bought a second property. Again, where was the gov regulation to protect the tax payer ??

Protect the taxpayer against what? Themselves?

So we are all at fault (I'll put my hand up and say I was, partly)

I'm not, I wasn't in a position to be during the good years.

but the Irish gov and the Banks were BY FAR more responsible. Due to the COMPLETE lack of regulation and care of it's people.

Are you saying that the Government should expect people to be incapable of controlling themselves financially and actively interfere with the financial lives and budgeting of individuals now?

On the one hand, we've a load of people raving over their freedoms being infringed upon now and how the government are fascists, while on the other we have people crying out "WHY GOVERNMENT?! WHY COULDN'T YOU STOP US BORROWING MONEY AND SPENDING IT ALL?!WWHHYYY!?".

It's up to the individual to control themselves and take the options they can afford. Banks and developers were only acting to provide the supply of property and credit that a proportion of a nation of greedy, careless people were indulging upon, nay, demanding that they receive.

Now the **** has hit the fan and people are going mad over not being able to get credit?! You couldn't make it up.

It's the one thing about Ireland now that drives me crazy, we are now a country of armchair economists ! And there are those on their high horses, whom I suspect, are not all that white :rolleyes:

So, er, non-whites shouldn't have input?

stackerman · 27-01-2012 11:35AM

Quietriot

Im glad you took the time to post, you see we agree on most of the above, if you read it again. The point I was trying to make is that most, flip, flop between both arguments depending on who they are talking to and in what context. But FEW accept responsibility for their own actions, and that includes Election time ! As one person pointed out, it's bloody hard to find someone who will admit the voted FF.

However the comment re "oh wise one" was a bit unnecessary

In fact I did buy in the bubble, but I don't mind. I borrowed what I can cover, and I couldn't care less that my house is in neg equity. I've no need/desire to sell, but then I'm one of the lucky ones. Ones house value is only an issue if you need or wish to sell.

Where I think we may differ, is in the regulation side of things. The government are NOT supposed to set the price of goods and services, nor would I want them to. However they SHOULD regulate the fees charged for running pension funds. They are outrageous, and most not up front and open. If they were, no one in their right mind would put their hard earned into them.

Yes the Gov need to protect the taxpayer, and yes sometimes from themselves. Low interest rates for example ! On one hand it encourages borrowing (thats why they are low) but this should also be backed by regulation. On the other hand, low interest rates kill those of us that do try to save, in the form of negative interest rates - Interest rates on deposits lower then inflation. Therefore you are actually loosing money, by leaving it on deposit. This is by design, to encourage people to spend, in order to get the economy moving. This is the very reason, so many are moving into commodities such as metals etc. Hedge against inflation. Because the Gov is not really looking after the people, it is looking after itself, it is and always has done.Why do you think half the "kicking the can down the road" is happening ? Because they all know that if they do the right thing the people will punish them for it !! So yes the people DO need protecting, from Gov that puts itself ahead of the taxpayer, that puts the public sector ahead of the tax payer, THAT EVEN PUTS BANKS ahead of the tax payer.

And for the record, endless printing (QE) is not the answer, but it IS what we are all going to get !! So prepare yourself for high (if not hyper) inflation.

bijapos · 27-01-2012 11:37AM

What FG supporters here seem to forget is that when "people went mad and borrowed", those very people are paying back their debts, in the vast majority of cases on time and on schedule. There are essentially three kinds of debt we are talking about here:

1. Public/State debt: We have a budget deficit of several billion every year, we need to borrow to make up that deficit in the short to medium term. Nothing new here, lots of countries borrow money, this will be paid back as its state guaranteed.

2. Corporate Debt (for want of a better word). This is the real problem. Enormous sums of money borrowed by individuals and corporations who speculated on land and house prices remaining high. This was fine until the bubble, as predicted, burst. Lending institutions, be they banks or whatever, who gave them money, be they Irish or foreign, should have taken huge losses on this, but they havent as of yet because as we know this has been guaranteed by the state. We have had to borrow money to guarantee this, the losses on this provisionally run into tens of billions.

3. Private debt. This is the one where Enda Kennys "we all borrowed like mad" comes into it. This includes mortgages, bank loans for cars, holidays, bling, debts on credit cards and so on. This runs into hundreds of millions. The thing is though, this money is, in the vast majority of cases, being paid back and on time. About 7-10% of people are in serious trouble with their mortgage, (about another 10% are struggling to pay it back). This still means 90%+ of people are paying their debts back.

Now even in a country as supposedly financially astute as Germany there are private citizens, in boom and in recession times, who cannot pay back their private debts, Ireland is no different. Most of the debt defaulters were paying the money back when they were employed, but at 14% unemployment it is obvious that some will run into trouble. Even so, corporations such as Visa know that a certain percentage of people won't pay back their debts and make allowances for this in their books, which is also reflected in their interest rates.

So the point is, it is not the ordinary people who are casuing the problem, it was the mismanagement of the tax revenue system, the fact that tax revenue so much depended on one industry and high personal spending that then collapsed that is partly to blame. And along with this the debts run up by a very small number of businesses who borrowed huge amounts of money to buy now almost worthless land who are responsible.

Not "people going mad" as Enda says. The fact that he wasn't specific is appaling imo, internationally he has now said as leader of this country that the ordinary people are to blame. This is wrong. He should apologise.

stackerman · 27-01-2012 11:45AM

bijapos wrote: »

What FG supporters here seem to forget is that when "people went mad and borrowed", those very people are paying back their debts, in the vast majority of cases on time and on schedule. There are essentially three kinds of debt we are talking about here:

1. Public/State debt: We have a budget deficit of several billion every year, we need to borrow to make up that deficit in the short to medium term. Nothing new here, lots of countries borrow money, this will be paid back as its state guaranteed.

2. Corporate Debt (for want of a better word). This is the real problem. Enormous sums of money borrowed by individuals and corporations who speculated on land and house prices remaining high. This was fine until the bubble, as predicted, burst. Lending institutions, be they banks or whatever, who gave them money, be they Irish or foreign, should have taken huge losses on this, but they havent as of yet because as we know this has been guaranteed by the state. We have had to borrow money to guarantee this, the losses on this provisionally run into tens of billions.

3. Private debt. This is the one where Enda Kennys "we all borrowed like mad" comes into it. This includes mortgages, bank loans for cars, holidays, bling, debts on credit cards and so on. This runs into hundreds of millions. The thing is though, this money is, in the vast majority of cases, being paid back and on time. About 7-10% of people are in serious trouble with their mortgage, (about another 10% are struggling to pay it back). This still means 90%+ of people are paying their debts back.

Now even in a country as supposedly financially astute as Germany there are private citizens, in boom and in recession times, who cannot pay back their private debts, Ireland is no different. Most of the debt defaulters were paying the money back when they were employed, but at 14% unemployment it is obvious that some will run into trouble. Even so, corporations such as Visa know that a certain percentage of people won't pay back their debts and make allowances for this in their books, which is also reflected in their interest rates.

So the point is, it is not the ordinary people who are casuing the problem, it was the mismanagement of the tax revenue system, the fact that tax revenue so much depended on one industry and high personal spending that then collapsed that is partly to blame. And along with this the debts run up by a very small number of businesses who borrowed huge amounts of money to buy now almost worthless land who are responsible.

Not "people going mad" as Enda says. The fact that he wasn't specific is appaling imo, internationally he has now said as leader of this country that the ordinary people are to blame. This is wrong. He should apologise.

Well said !

UDP · 27-01-2012 11:45AM

Enda is 100% correct here.

Greed from a large part of Irish society (and global too) was what caused the issues. It is people that run corporations thus a corporation itself that is not greedy - it is those running it that are.

Regular people getting loans were greedy
Those working in the banks approving the loans were greedy (although to be fair some staff were following the banks policies and rules but still they approved 100%+ mortgages)
Those high up in the management of the banks were greedy
Shareholders in the banks looking for large profits were greedy
Those representing the vulnerable were greedy (especially those looking for more social welfare assistance)
Unions were greedy
Corporations were greedy

The vast majority of Irish society (but not everyone) were greedy which resulted in the mess we are in. There were global influences too but our greed blinded us from protecting ourselves.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Like said earlier - nobody forced you to take a loan to buy a house that is only worth half of what you paid for it now. It was simply your greed and naivety.

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

quietriot · 27-01-2012 11:56AM

stackerman wrote: »

FEW accept responsibility for their own actions, and that includes Election time ! As one person pointed out, it's bloody hard to find someone who will admit the voted FF.

Yep, that person was me

Indeed, Irish people seem to want to distance themselves from any form of responsibility for...well...anything. Yet, the same people were rubbing "we're the richest in Europe" in people's faces only a few years ago, along with how good Fianna Fail were because they didn't try to tax children's shoes, a measure the previous FG government (who rescued the country) tried to implement.

There's a lot of people with short memories and a "I didn't do it" attitude and the developers and bank staff are just being targeted to point the finger at someone.

The banks are the worst with regards to responsibility though, with AIB suggesting that their new CEO take a €1m salary this year, after the huge amount of money their actions have cost the country. We've yet to hear about the redundancies they promised and I know for a fact that they're hiring now.

However the comment re "oh wise one" was a bit unnecessary
In fact I did buy in the bubble, but I don't mind. I borrowed what I can cover, and I couldn't care less that my house is in neg equity. I've no need/desire to sell, but then I'm one of the lucky ones. Ones house value is only an issue if you need or wish to sell.

Fair play.

Where I think we may differ, is in the regulation side of things. The government are NOT supposed to set the price of goods and services, nor would I want them to. However they SHOULD regulate the fees charged for running pension funds. They are outrageous, and most not up front and open. If they were, no one in their right mind would put their hard earned into them.

Private pension funds can charge whatever they like tbh and I don't think it's up to the government to say otherwise. If the charges aren't transparent then the company can be pursued legally however when it comes to optional, private expenditure it really is caveat emptor.

Government intervention in a free market is a pretty bad thing and once it begins there is no telling where the line is drawn.

Because the Gov is not really looking after the people, it is looking after itself, it is and always has done.Why do you think half the "kicking the can down the road" is happening ? Because they all know that if they do the right thing the people will punish them for it !! So yes the people DO need protecting, from Gov that puts itself ahead of the taxpayer, that puts the public sector ahead of the tax payer, THAT EVEN PUTS BANKS ahead of the tax payer.

When you say "puts < > ahead of the taxpayer", how do you mean? I certainly don't feel like someone has been put ahead of my concerns personally.

And for the record, endless printing (QE) is not the answer, but it IS what we are all going to get !! So prepare yourself for high (if not hyper) inflation.

Believe me friend, I haven't long left in Ireland and I've no intention of returning

stackerman · 27-01-2012 11:59AM

UDP wrote: »

It was simply your greed and naivety.

You were doing so well, until you wrote that.
Naivety, stupidity etc etc - maybe

But greedy ?? Harsh and unfair me thinks. Typical Irish attitude, try to better your, and your kids lives and your called greedy FFS. Sure look maybe these people you refer to should just give up working, trying to look after themselves and their family, and just let the tax payer foot the bill.

Naturally there are those who took the piss all together, but I honestly think these are few and far between.

Most people are not economists or accountants and trust the "system" to guide them in the right direction. They'll not make that mistake again though :mad:

27-01-2012 12:00PM

UDP wrote: »

Enda is 100% correct here.

Greed from a large part of Irish society (and global too) was what caused the issues. It is people that run corporations thus a corporation itself that is not greedy - it is those running it that are.

Regular people getting loans were greedy
Those working in the banks approving the loans were greedy (although to be fair some staff were following the banks policies and rules but still they approved 100%+ mortgages)
Those high up in the management of the banks were greedy
Shareholders in the banks looking for large profits were greedy
Those representing the vulnerable were greedy (especially those looking for more social welfare assistance)
Unions were greedy
Corporations were greedy

The vast majority of Irish society (but not everyone) were greedy which resulted in the mess we are in. There were global influences too but our greed blinded us from protecting ourselves.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Like said earlier - nobody forced you to take a loan to buy a house that is only worth half of what you paid for it now. It was simply your greed and naivety.

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

here, here!

stackerman · 27-01-2012 12:02PM

UDP wrote: »

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

Agreed, anything other than that is not capitalism.

fliball123 · 27-01-2012 12:02PM

antoobrien wrote: »

He's right, it's not the only reason but it is the primary reason.

There was no one person or step that could have stopped it all but the bottom line is that if people weren't willing to pay the prices being asked the bubble wouldn't have kept expanding.

Its b0ll0x and a con job the main reason we are up to your t1ts in debt is our over borrowing by the gov to pay for overpaid public servants and the dole..This is the single biggest contribution to our debt and deficit there are figures that various posters have put up on these boards that show the banks brought in less than 1/3 of the debt and deficit that we see ourselves in ...Kenny is deflecting this point away....Politicians in particular Fianna Fail are to blame for the 2/3s of our soveign deficit and debt for over spending the other 1/3 which is the banking clusterfcuk...Well Sinn Fein's Pierce Doherty has figures that only 180 people (individuals) got loans of more than 60billion..So for Kenny to say we all went mad is shamefull when you break it down..He should hang his head in shame he has betrayed the people who voted him in....He neglects to say how the media and governement of the time aggressively said there was no bubble that the houses would continue rising and that they should get in before they were out of reach..Thats one side..Then on the other side you had banks who were completely let off the leash and lent recklessly and then you had greedy developers who kept upping the prices..The average person who is none bank, PS , Gov or builder related who bought a house is not as culapable as Kenny would have you believe...If everyone was doing their job properly this would not of happened..END OF

grumpymunster · 27-01-2012 12:06PM

I bought late in the boom, I am saddled with a large mortgage and negative equitity. Whilst it is a hell of a struggle it is my responsibility and will do my level best to pay it back. That is where my responsibility ends why am I responsible for the gross errors of the banks, why do I have to pay that back. Why am I responsible for an over sized public service that the government do noes not have the balls to tackle?

Enda, to my mind, is grossly insulting. So far this government has been nothing but a disaster for this country, they would do well to reflect on what happened to FF at the last election. Insulting the hand that feeds you not a clever move.

And for those with the benefit of hindsight do they remember Bertie's speech at City West and still claim no governmental input.

stackerman · 27-01-2012 12:07PM

quietriot wrote: »

Believe me friend, I haven't long left in Ireland and I've no intention of returning

I assume you meant "Have" long left

Im afraid the inflation will not be limited to Ireland, or the EU. Not too many places will be "safe" when the can stops.

ATB

antoobrien · 27-01-2012 12:09PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Its b0ll0x and a con job

What about the €550 billion that was borrowed to buy houses in Ireland over the past 10 years - several times more than what the government borrowed.

Face it, we got far too big for our boots and now are paying the price.

We were happy to ignore the buildup of debt while things were going well - to the point of confusing debt with wealth (Quinn's loans were most of the €4 billion personal fortune after all) - but now that the truth is being pointed out to us, we refuse to accept it.

fliball123 · 27-01-2012 12:17PM

antoobrien wrote: »

What about the €550 billion that was borrowed to buy houses in Ireland over the past 10 years - several times more than what the government borrowed.

Face it, we got far too big for our boots and now are paying the price.

We were happy to ignore the buildup of debt while things were going well - to the point of confusing debt with wealth (Quinn's loans were most of the €4 billion personal fortune after all) - but now that the truth is being pointed out to us, we refuse to accept it.

Which to date has not been written off and is still being repaid or house (collateral) for which is being repossessed...hows about dealing with my post in full and not just taking one bit out to suit your own argument...If the banks did there job with the regulator (as they are doing now) this would not of happened..We pay good money to public servants to put water on the fire when the ecconomy is over heating but they badly failed us and what do governments do to these people?? do they get the sack?? NO they get promotions, or a nice golden handshake and a nice pension package...Now having said that no one did put a gun to the persons head to go in and get that loan but the counter to this is no one put the gun to the bankers head and made them ask the question "why are we giving a loan to billy or joan of 400k whos on 30k a a year" Doesnt and never made a lick of sense I bought in 2004 and I was offered nearly double what I was looking for the banker told me I could keep a lot of my deposit and have it for a rainy day..Thank god I didnt take him up on this offer as tempting as it was at the time...

UDP · 27-01-2012 12:19PM

stackerman wrote: »

You were doing so well, until you wrote that.
Naivety, stupidity etc etc - maybe

But greedy ?? Harsh and unfair me thinks. Typical Irish attitude, try to better your, and your kids lives and your called greedy FFS. Sure look maybe these people you refer to should just give up working, trying to look after themselves and their family, and just let the tax payer foot the bill.

Naturally there are those who took the piss all together, but I honestly think these are few and far between.

Most people are not economists or accountants and trust the "system" to guide them in the right direction. They'll not make that mistake again though :mad:

There were two sides at fault here. The banks for giving loans to people who could not repay them (or who would struggle to) and those that took the loans. Both sides were being greedy so enda was correct in that it was greed. Then you have the government who were incompetent in putting basic protections in place when they knew this was going on - but that was not just incompetence either, it also was as a result of greed.

LordSutch · 27-01-2012 12:19PM

femur61 wrote: »

Davros

http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/1/12/Davros2.jpg

RichardAnd · 27-01-2012 12:20PM

antoobrien wrote: »

What about the €550 billion that was borrowed to buy houses in Ireland over the past 10 years - several times more than what the government borrowed.

Face it, we got far too big for our boots and now are paying the price.

I don't mean to have a go at you personally but I just don't agree with your use of the word "we". You're referring to the Irish populace, some five million people, as one entity, as if they were a small group with a shared agenda. This simply isn't true.

Hundreds of thousands of people never took out a single loan during the boom but they are no suffering the ill effects of austerity simply because they were born and reside in the same country as those that did borrow heavily. What those born in the last 20 to 25 years? Are they entitled to a share of this collective blame?

UDP · 27-01-2012 12:27PM

grumpymunster wrote: »

I bought late in the boom, I am saddled with a large mortgage and negative equitity. Whilst it is a hell of a struggle it is my responsibility and will do my level best to pay it back. That is where my responsibility ends why am I responsible for the gross errors of the banks, why do I have to pay that back. Why am I responsible for an over sized public service that the government do noes not have the balls to tackle?

Why should I have to bail your bad debt out if it comes to that?

This is the problem, where do we draw the line on personal responsibility and bailing someone/something out?

Those who were greedy and bit off more than they could chew (both the person taking out the loan and the bank for giving it) now are relying on those who were not as greedy to bail them out effectively.

The problem is that because the government bailed the banks out (and give not enough in return) now where do we draw the line on who gets bailed out - it makes it unfair no matter what now.

grumpymunster wrote: »

Enda, to my mind, is grossly insulting. So far this government has been nothing but a disaster for this country, they would do well to reflect on what happened to FF at the last election. Insulting the hand that feeds you not a clever move.

I think they have been as good as it is possible for an Irish government to be since we the Irish are pretty bad at managing ourselves anyway.

I do think they should have had more balls to stand up to europe though and refuse to pay back unguaranteed debt.

PeadarCo · 27-01-2012 12:30PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't mean to have a go at you personally but I just don't agree with your use of the word "we". You're referring to the Irish populace, some five million people, as one entity, as if they were a small group with a shared agenda. This simply isn't true.

Hundreds of thousands of people never took out a single loan during the boom but they are no suffering the ill effects of austerity simply because they were born and reside in the same country as those that did borrow heavily. What those born in the last 20 to 25 years? Are they entitled to a share of this collective blame?

We live in a democracy, unfortunately majority rules. The majority of people voted for Fianna Fail and/or bought houses at crazy prices. A minority didn't but since we live in a democracy the minority have to deal with the consequences of the majorities decsions. It isn't exactly fair but thats how democracy works.

quietriot · 27-01-2012 12:36PM

grumpymunster wrote: »

Enda, to my mind, is grossly insulting. So far this government has been nothing but a disaster for this country, they would do well to reflect on what happened to FF at the last election. Insulting the hand that feeds you not a clever move.

I can't recall being so happy with a Government in my lifetime. I'm only mid-twenties, but I can't remember having such a good leader represent us on the international stage, and a government that for the most part has shown it has the balls to make the tough decisions despite the fact it'll cost them their position in a few years time.

I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned he's Mr.Charisma compared to the B-b-b-boortie's, Charlie's and Cowen's that we're used to.

stackerman wrote: »

I assume you meant "Have" long left

Im afraid the inflation will not be limited to Ireland, or the EU. Not too many places will be "safe" when the can stops.

ATB

I sure hope not, if I could pack up and get on a plane out of here today, I damn well would

RichardAnd · 27-01-2012 12:51PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

We live in a democracy, unfortunately majority rules. The majority of people voted for Fianna Fail and/or bought houses at crazy prices. A minority didn't but since we live in a democracy the minority have to deal with the consequences of the majorities decsions. It isn't exactly fair but thats how democracy works.

I know. It's a prime example of the big failing of any democratic system summed up by the words:

51% of people can vote to enslave the other 49%.

As it often the case, this translates into the prudent and innocent paying for the mistakes of the reckless.

PeadarCo · 27-01-2012 01:04PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

I know. It's a prime example of the big failing of any democratic system summed up by the words:

51% of people can vote to enslave the other 49%.

As it often the case, this translates into the prudent and innocent paying for the mistakes of the reckless.

I would agree but until someone comes up with a better idea we are stuck with it.( The type of democractic system we have could be improved)

The other problem is politicans will do ultimately what the people want them to. Had Fianna Fail done what people in hindsight now feel they should have done they would have been booted out for not doing what people wanted at the time.

RichardAnd · 27-01-2012 01:11PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

I would agree but until someone comes up with a better idea we are stuck with it.( The type of democractic system we have could be improved)

The other problem is politicans will do ultimately what the people want them to. Had Fianna Fail done what people in hindsight now feel they should have done they would have been booted out for not doing what people wanted at the time.

Yeah, I would have loved to have seen the back lash if Bertie tried to keep the budget in check back in 2002.

Taoiseach speech in Davros

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