Laws Question? Ask here!

crisco10 · 22-01-2012 01:14PM

Question inspired by Hines' penalty for holding Ferris yesterday.

The call was made by the touch judge and not spotted by the ref for awhile. What if, the referee didn't realise the touch judge was calling for an infringement and in the mean time awarded Clermont a try?

Can the referee "unaward" the try, if on consulting his touch judge, it is apparent Clermont infringed? and then go on to award Ulster the penalty or whatever?

I kind of think that even if the ref CAN do it, he would very rarely do it. But would be nice to know the law on it.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 01:17PM

Shelflife wrote: »

then reform the scrum, by telling them to move it he was putting them at a disadvantage surely ?

Not really, he is just telling them to play it before he resets so if anything it's an advantage of sorts. I'd call it a smart call myself. Don't forget, a scrum is just a way to restart a game; any time spent on reforming and retting a scrum is playing time wasted for both teams.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 01:27PM

crisco10 wrote: »

Question inspired by Hines' penalty for holding Ferris yesterday.

The call was made by the touch judge and not spotted by the ref for awhile. What if, the referee didn't realise the touch judge was calling for an infringement and in the mean time awarded Clermont a try?

Can the referee "unaward" the try, if on consulting his touch judge, it is apparent Clermont infringed? and then go on to award Ulster the penalty or whatever?

I kind of think that even if the ref CAN do it, he would very rarely do it. But would be nice to know the law on it.

An assistant referee will hold out his flag until such time as a referee sees it. Before a try is awarded, a referee usually glances at both assistants to ensure that a flag isn't up for any reason before awarding a try. If there is cause to bring up foul play then it's done here before proceeding And yes, it does and has happened in the past but it is rare.

Shelflife · 22-01-2012 04:17PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Not really, he is just telling them to play it before he resets so if anything it's an advantage of sorts. I'd call it a smart call myself. Don't forget, a scrum is just a way to restart a game; any time spent on reforming and retting a scrum is playing time wasted for both teams.

I dont know losty, to me a ref shouting to use it implies that you will lose it if you dont play it. if its just a reset the ref has no right to dictate that the ball must be played to the backs when the team has a clear advantage in the forwards.

to me its not a smart call, its a cop out by the ref, its either a reset or a pen for standing up, its not up to the ref to dictate tactics.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 04:30PM

Shelflife wrote: »

I dont know losty, to me a ref shouting to use it implies that you will lose it if you dont play it. if its just a reset the ref has no right to dictate that the ball must be played to the backs when the team has a clear advantage in the forwards.

to me its not a smart call, its a cop out by the ref, its either a reset or a pen for standing up, its not up to the ref to dictate tactics.

The ref isn't dictating how you play it; he is just telling you to use it before a reset results. The laws request that a ball at the base is played ASAP, I'd consider it good management to talk players out of a stop start game. If it's a penalty then it will be called. Well, it ought to be, at least

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-01-2012 10:03PM

Maybe the ref should have called out (scrum) advantage then use it and if the ball didn't come out gone back for the (reset) penaly

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 10:49PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Maybe the ref should have called out (scrum) advantage then use it and if the ball didn't come out gone back for the (reset) penaly

No reason to call an advantage as there is no infringement here, Ciaran.

Shelflife · 22-01-2012 11:06PM

Losty im not aware of any rule that requires the ball to be played asap, if that was the case there would never be a push over try.

My point is by shouting USE IT when there is no obligation to do so is wrong.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 11:09PM

Shelflife wrote: »

Losty im not aware of any rule that requires the ball to be played asap, if that was the case there would never be a push over try.

My point is by shouting USE IT when there is no obligation to do so is wrong.

The rule is there; it's 20.4.

Shelflife · 22-01-2012 11:21PM

Thank you losty but under the same rule

(g) If a scrum collapses or lifts up into the air without sanction a further scrum will be ordered and the team who originally threw in the ball will throw the ball in again.
If a scrum has to be reformed for any other reason not covered in this Law the team who originally threw in the ball will throw the ball in again

so in the instance that i spoke of the front rows had stood up without sanction so its a reset, calling on them to use it is still wrong.:)

It was in monts interests to have a reset , the ref telling them to do otherwise is not within his remit.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 11:29PM

Shelflife wrote: »

Thank you losty but under the same rule

(g) If a scrum collapses or lifts up into the air without sanction a further scrum will be ordered and the team who originally threw in the ball will throw the ball in again.
If a scrum has to be reformed for any other reason not covered in this Law the team who originally threw in the ball will throw the ball in again

so in the instance that i spoke of the front rows had stood up without sanction so its a reset, calling on them to use it is still wrong.:)

It was in monts interests to have a reset , the ref telling them to do otherwise is not within his remit.

To be honest, I'd trust Neil Patterson's call on this one more than mine or yours

If he didn't see cause to sanction either team or to call a reset then no penalty can be called and no team can gain an advantage from same.

Getting away from the specific incident, there is a big problem in the game today with scrums popping up and forming badly and it's something that the IRB need to address soon.

Shelflife · 22-01-2012 11:36PM

Fair enough losty

, its a bit of a bugbear of mine.

Problem in the scrums is that the refs havent a clue whats going on, need a few more props going in to the refs ranks.

Losty Dublin · 22-01-2012 11:38PM

Shelflife wrote: »

Fair enough losty , its a bit of a bugbear of mine.

Problem in the scrums is that the refs havent a clue whats going on, need a few more props going in to the refs ranks.

Agreed.

90% of refs never played in the pack so they have no idea about scrumming.

The other 10% did and turn a blind eye to all the dirtbag tricks going on

FrPhelimYoung · 28-01-2012 08:23AM

We have a play off scrum time going right to left where we run our 12 short and direct off a pass from the base from 9. The 12, running hard, will hit the No. 8 coming off the scrum with a pivot pass.

To maximise effect the 12 does encroach inside our "5 metre offside area" off the scrum. Is this in effect an offside issue for attack off the scrum and therefore a penalty for the defensive team??? We've tried it a few times with no issue from refs but I'd like some opinions from the knowledge on here.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 01:08PM

FrPhelimYoung wrote: »

We have a play off scrum time going right to left where we run our 12 short and direct off a pass from the base from 9. The 12, running hard, will hit the No. 8 coming off the scrum with a pivot pass.

To maximise effect the 12 does encroach inside our "5 metre offside area" off the scrum. Is this in effect an offside issue for attack off the scrum and therefore a penalty for the defensive team??? We've tried it a few times with no issue from refs but I'd like some opinions from the knowledge on here.

If a player is not 5 metres back from the offside line at scrum time then they are in an offside position and liable to be called. Nobody may encroach beyond the 5 until the scrum is over.

Reloc8 · 30-01-2012 10:02PM

Bit like the attacking team off a lineout coming within 10 metres - almost never called and would probably have to be very blatant.

Chuck Stone · 02-02-2012 06:09PM

When we played Wales the last time I think we were beat by the quick anticipatory rush up by the Welsh team when our scrum half was clearing out from behind the scrum.

With the above in mind is the scrum half allowed to dummy throw then actually throw in an attempt to deliberately catch the other team offside and stop encroachment?

I understand that the Welsh probably won't employ this tactic again but was just wondering.

kensutz · 02-02-2012 06:12PM

Scrum half isn't allowed dummy a play from a ruck if that's what you're asking. Result is a free kick to the opposition.

castie · 03-02-2012 06:30AM

kensutz wrote: »

Scrum half isn't allowed dummy a play from a ruck if that's what you're asking. Result is a free kick to the opposition.

This isnt a ruck thought its a scrum.

Chuck Stone · 03-02-2012 09:57AM

castie wrote: »

This isnt a ruck thought its a scrum.

I meant ruck but is it the same for a scrum is another question (although if a scrum is making ground there's little reason to dummy the ball out to the backs).

kensutz · 03-02-2012 01:59PM

castie wrote: »

This isnt a ruck thought its a scrum.

Yeah sorry, didn't read it properly but same applies for scrum. He can't dummy a pass attempt from the base of a scrum.

castie · 03-02-2012 05:10PM

kensutz wrote: »

Yeah sorry, didn't read it properly but same applies for scrum. He can't dummy a pass attempt from the base of a scrum.

Not saying your wrong but is there a law for this?
Or does the same law as rucks apply?

Cant find the exact law at the moment.

kensutz · 03-02-2012 05:14PM

Yes there is a law.

16.4 (f) A player must not take any action to make the opposing team think that the ball is out of
the ruck while it is still in the ruck

I remember one of my first games I reffed, someone tried it and I pinged them for it. The scrum half was baffled and I told him he tried to get the opposition in an offside position from dummying a play and free kick was going against him.

castie · 03-02-2012 05:53PM

kensutz wrote: »

Yes there is a law.

16.4 (f) A player must not take any action to make the opposing team think that the ball is out of
the ruck while it is still in the ruck

I remember one of my first games I reffed, someone tried it and I pinged them for it. The scrum half was baffled and I told him he tried to get the opposition in an offside position from dummying a play and free kick was going against him.

It specifically says ruck though.
So cant be applied to a scrum in my opinion

Losty Dublin · 03-02-2012 06:13PM

castie wrote: »

It specifically says ruck though.
So cant be applied to a scrum in my opinion

There is the same offence at a maul (17.3.b) and a scrum (20.9.f).

castie · 04-02-2012 05:32AM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There is the same offence at a maul (17.3.b) and a scrum (20.9.f).

Thanks.

For anyone looking it up later its 20.9.h on the irb site.

(h) Scrum half: Dummying. A scrum half must not take any action to make the opponents think that the ball is out of the scrum while it is still in the scrum.
Sanction: Free Kick

MyKeyG · 10-02-2012 08:24PM

Can someone point out the law that precludes tipping the ball over an opponents head as being classified a knock on? I just saw it in Ulsters first try. I scanned through the thread so if it was mentioned already apologies.

PS: What a good second try!!!

Losty Dublin · 10-02-2012 09:09PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Can someone point out the law that precludes tipping the ball over an opponents head as being classified a knock on? I just saw it in Ulsters first try. I scanned through the thread so if it was mentioned already apologies.

PS: What a good second try!!!

Law 12 is where it's at

MyKeyG · 10-02-2012 10:05PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Law 12 is where it's at

Well that's my point. According to law 12:

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes
forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the
ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or
another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

EXCEPTION
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or
immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel
forward.

By definition to tip the ball over your opponents head should be a knock on. So I return to my original question seeing as how Law 12 isn't in fact where it's at.

Losty Dublin · 10-02-2012 10:13PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Well that's my point. According to law 12:

By definition to tip the ball over your opponents head should be a knock on. So I return to my original question seeing as how Law 12 isn't in fact where it's at.

The crucial part is the end of the definition... "and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

It is not as well worded as it ought to be and it can be easily read wrong.

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