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Occupy Galway Promoting Freeman Pseudo-law

124678

Comments

  • #92
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    Inclusion wrote: »
    ''if I am alone in my tent''
    I knew eventually you would trip yourself up - we all know the tents are 99% empty - I happen to think you are alone there anytime you do stay- so straight from the horses mouth so to speak there's NOBODY IN THE TENTS ,
    (Occupy Galway facebook posts dated 5th and 6th of January)

    For crying out loud! I really am trying to keep my patience but I think today will have to be my last day on boards, at my age I need to watch my blood pressure!
    I shall type this slowly for you...I sleep alone in my tent, it is a one man tent (poss 2 if you wanted to get cosy but my husband doesn't stay at camp so I sleep alone). Other people sleep in their tents. Why would you assume that I would continually stay there alone in the camp? That is a ridiculous suggestion!
    If I am alone in my tent I want to be fairly sure that people who are passing it on their way to and from their own tents are people like myself, good people, rather than someone with malicious intentions.
    And to be honest, I don't care if you think that that makes me, or the group, exclusive. We are breaking no laws in being there and we have a right to look out for our own safety.


  • #93
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    20Cent wrote: »
    She clearly was saying alone in her tent not that she was alone in the camp. You really are clutching at straws. Herranguing a grandmother classy act you are. Doubt they ever thought anyone would want their accounts posted online! She clearly said it was handwritten, expecting them to type them up or scan them in for some randomer on the internet! If you are accusing them of stealing or scamming why don't you just say so?

    Why does Occupy Galway annoy you so much/ its just people camping, the only inconvenience is if you want to use walk in that part of the park with the tents!

    Do you know what is happening on Wednesday? Does that also make you angry?[/QUOT

    'randomer' been called that here before - I subsequently dismissed that - this page is about OG's facebook promotions and posts in an attempt to find a common ground actually , you might be surprised to find we are all on the same side i.e. the 99% but I draw the line at you lot faking and jumping onto the Occupy Wall Street bandwagon and in doing so have poisoned totally the concept behind it - you know what ? I couldn't care less what OG do up there , if none of you ever stayed in any of your tents or anything else you do there - what I do object to are your FALSE PRETENCES - I don't think Hippygran should be left on here to defend other people's actions in the camp the others obviously don't give a s*** about the hard time she is getting on here , not about her or about anyone wishing to enter into a debate with them - this again defeating the spirit of 'Occupy'

    Occupy Galway have managed to divide the 99% and that's about all they've done so far.


  • #94
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Ah we appreciate you answering questions, etc. These threads have been going on awhile now, mainly weighted heavily on the side of skeptics of the Occupy movement.


    However I would like to know what are the stated grievances of the occupy (galway) movement and what are their proposed solutions or workarounds to these grievances/issues.

    I have read through the minutes of nearly every Occupy movement, including Dame Street and I cannot find any answers to these simple yet crucial questions
    http://www.occupydamestreet.org/category/minutes


    In several hundred posts on the issue I have yet to see a clear answer (or any answer) on that.

    Try not to take it as disrespect but many posters (myself included) either are or have become very jaded and cynical of the occupy movement because of this lack of clarity on the issue.

    No, I don't take it as disrespect at all, it is nice to be asked a question that is framed in a non-aggressive and polite manner for a change :)

    The grievances are, primarily, the massive payments to unsecured bondholders coupled with budget cuts that are affecting the most vulnerable in society. Last February Enda Kenny said that 'not another cent of taxpayers money should be paid to Anglo Irish' and Michael Noonan described the payments as 'indefensible' and 'obscene'. On Wednesday a further 1.25 billion will be paid on unsecured bonds, bonds that another minister said we had 'no legal or moral obligation to pay'. Yesterday there was a huge demonstration in Dublin with hundreds of schoolchildren, teachers and parents protesting because they are to lose teachers from their schools because of education cuts.
    The Occupy movement in Ireland is making sure that this stays at the forefront of peoples minds, talking to people, holding protests, making posters listing the payments that are going out, and the cuts that are being made. There is also a campaign going online notourdebt.org, I think..that has sprung out of the movement and is gaining momentum.

    I agree that things do get muddled sometimes, and there does appear to be a lack of clarity. This is, in my opinion, because there are so many different types of people involved and because there are so many other things going on in the world that are worrying people as well. Also, because most of us are ordinary people not politicians so we may not express ourselves well.

    What I have seen happening in my time in the camp is that it has become a hub of sorts for all sorts of campaigns, and for networking. I see people with different areas of interest, or different expertise, exchanging email addresses and phone numbers. Groups such as amnesty international, who were protesting against Guantanamo bay last week in Galway, drop in and leave a pile of flyers for us to distribute, as have the ShelltoSea group in Rossport and others. It is giving people somewhere to go to share information and learn and discuss, and sometimes just to vent their disgust at what is happening. A lady came in one day last week furious because her 12 year old granddaughter, who is almost completely blind, has been told she can't have a special needs assistant when she starts secondary school, or braille lessons, because the money isn't there. She had a cup of tea and a chat and went away determined to make as much of a fuss about it as possible, starting with her local TD. I realise this isn't changing the world, but it's a start.

    I,personally, think maybe the camp side of it will fizzle out in due course. It was a statement, it was a great idea in that it got peoples attention. It wasn't a new idea, by the way, it was done in the early 1920s by a group of soldiers in the US who didn't get pay they were owed after ww2. They camped on the riverbank in Washington apparently. They also got a lot of support from local people and a lot of abuse and aggression from others. But they did get their pay in the end. Greenham Common in the UK as well, of course.
    It is bloody hard work staying there though, to be honest, and I for one won't be completely sorry when sleeping-in-tent ends. I think the councils will start to find a way to move the camps but I don't think that will matter too much. People are forming groups, they are starting to specialise and focus on particular issues, and income inequality and social injustice are at the forefront of political discussion these days.

    With regards to proposed solutions, I am not sure that we, as a group, need to have any. It is something that has been discussed a lot..both what the solutions may be, and whether we need to propose any. If my shower breaks I call a plumber, I don't have to be able to tell him how to fix it, just that it's broken. It is his job to fix it, it's what I'm paying him for. Our government are getting large salaries to run our country for us.

    There are people, economists, political parties, etc that have suggestions..these should be looked at. Not paying Anglo Irish would be my first obvious suggestion, and it seems that this is now being considered following the meeting with Troika a couple of days ago. However, for this to be of use to us the money saved needs to be put back into the country in the form of job creation or spending in health or education. It seems the IMF is happier for the govt to do that than the ECB is. Maybe with enough people out protesting and upsetting the powers that be, our government will grow a pair and put their people before the bankers?

    This is of course just my views on it, I daresay other people involved have different views. My side of it when I am there is mostly welcome person..talking to passers by, making tea, listening etc so I probably see it differently from those who are planning protests, researching facts and other things.
    Sorry for rambling but I don't intend on spending much more time on this site so I tried to answer as comprehensively as possible. I realise it is probably still not the soundbite political responses that some people would like to hear.
    As far as I know, not many other fellow occupiers bother with boards much, but maybe someone else will give you their take on it sometime.


  • #95
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    Inclusion wrote: »
    20Cent wrote: »
    She clearly was saying alone in her tent not that she was alone in the camp. You really are clutching at straws. Herranguing a grandmother classy act you are. Doubt they ever thought anyone would want their accounts posted online! She clearly said it was handwritten, expecting them to type them up or scan them in for some randomer on the internet! If you are accusing them of stealing or scamming why don't you just say so?

    Why does Occupy Galway annoy you so much/ its just people camping, the only inconvenience is if you want to use walk in that part of the park with the tents!

    Do you know what is happening on Wednesday? Does that also make you angry?[/QUOT

    'randomer' been called that here before - I subsequently dismissed that - this page is about OG's facebook promotions and posts in an attempt to find a common ground actually , you might be surprised to find we are all on the same side i.e. the 99% but I draw the line at you lot faking and jumping onto the Occupy Wall Street bandwagon and in doing so have poisoned totally the concept behind it - you know what ? I couldn't care less what OG do up there , if none of you ever stayed in any of your tents or anything else you do there - what I do object to are your FALSE PRETENCES - I don't think Hippygran should be left on here to defend other people's actions in the camp the others obviously don't give a s*** about the hard time she is getting on here , not about her or about anyone wishing to enter into a debate with them - this again defeating the spirit of 'Occupy'

    Occupy Galway have managed to divide the 99% and that's about all they've done so far.

    I am not being left on here to defend other peoples actions..I choose to come on here, though god only knows why, and I certainly won't be for much longer. As far as I am aware, a lot of the other camp participants aren't even aware of boards.ie..and especially not of these threads. I have mentioned them to a few people, some dismiss them readily. I am afraid that boards.ie as a discussion forum doesn't have much respect amongst some of the 'hippies' and 'lefties' out there!
    Some of the people who are at the camp almost constantly, such as Ms Borg, don't even use Facebook (shock, horror)..she just has email. She doesn't feel that she is obliged to keep up with things online, she talks to people in camp and gets information the old fashioned way.
    You talk about 'the hard time I am getting on here' as if you care, yet you have been one of those giving me a hard time. If I was a weaker person I would see your manner of 'debating' as bullying.
    I am going back to camp for a few days tomorrow, if you like I will spread the word and ask for as many people as possible to come on here and 'debate' with you. Maybe some of them can spare a bit of time, or maybe they won't think it important enough, but I can ask.


  • #96
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    That's all well and good, but let's put it bluntly:

    1) is OG in line with ODS in saying EU/IMF out?
    2) if so, how do we fund ourselves?
    3) who promotes or controls the OG Facebook?
    4) why are they promoting freeman pseudo law?
    5) why, when informed they are doing so, was this position defended and the post remained up - I could understand an error, but when brought to their attention they defended it.



    Everything else is redundant. You think we want to make all these cuts? They are unfortunately necessary.


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  • #97
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    However I would like to know what are the stated grievances of the occupy (galway) movement and what are their proposed solutions or workarounds to these grievances/issues.

    From even a cursory look at them it is clear that their grievances are the mismanagement of the economy and the disparity of wealthdistribution. Their proposal at present is to raise peoples awareness of these issues and presumably they are in favour of better management of public funds, less redistribution of wealth to large corprate interests and greater redistribution towards those on very low incomes in the developing world.

    This "I don't understand what their about" type criticism is getting quite tiresome to be honest. You may not agree with their view, that's fine. But why keep repeating that you don't understand and complaining that they don't illuminate you?


  • #98
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    From even a cursory look at them it is clear that their grievances are the mismanagement of the economy and the disparity of wealthdistribution. Their proposal at present is to raise peoples awareness of these issues and presumably they are in favour of better management of public funds, less redistribution of wealth to large corprate interests and greater redistribution towards those on very low incomes in the developing world.

    This "I don't understand what their about" type criticism is getting quite tiresome to be honest. You may not agree with their view, that's fine. But why keep repeating that you don't understand and complaining that they don't illuminate you?

    Because its just collectivized moaning and complaining. So instead of sitting in a taxi having a good old moan about the economy, the politicians and the traffic, there are people sitting in tents doing it, for weeks.

    One giant weakly diluted moan with no solutions - its crap in almost every way.

    The whole thing is badly thought out, the "occupying" part is self-defeating, the message is almost incomprehensible and there are no aims - except to "highlight" the "message" to others and gain more members

    Its got more in common with some rudderless religion than any sort of successful movement in the past.

    Sorry to be so scathing, but it needs a serious overhaul/rethink/planning/strategy to be in any way effective.


  • #99
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Because its just collectivized moaning and complaining. So instead of sitting in a taxi having a good old moan about the economy, the politicians and the traffic, there are people sitting in tents doing it, for weeks.

    One giant weakly diluted moan with no solutions - its crap in almost every way.

    The whole thing is badly thought out, the "occupying" part is self-defeating, the message is almost incomprehensible and there are no aims - except to "highlight" the "message" to others and gain more members

    Its got more in common with some rudderless religion than any sort of successful movement in the past.

    Sorry to be so scathing, but it needs a serious overhaul/rethink/planning/strategy to be in any way effective.

    Well look you clearly have a lot of anger and want to dismiss their views as moaning, and that's fine. But stop asking rhetorically what their views are because you know what they are you just choose to dismiss them.


  • #100
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    wayne jobless wrote: »
    Dont take what im about to type as misinformation cause its not,I have no problem with the occupy movement itself but with a Certain individual who was on the cover of last weeks Galway Advertiser claiming to be the spokesman for ye're movment (he has a scruffy looking beard and wears wellington boots),set the alarm bells ringing in my mind.

    Cause why? from what Ive been told and shown by various people who were worried about this individual and told me he's the complete opposite of what he appears to be and in fact they insist he's a danger to the public if any other people know who I am talking about please respond to this cause I know their are alot more of you and we an let everybody know what the real truth is.

    Thanks for reading this!

    Your suspicions have been noted. I must say that if he is what you say he is he's certainly putting a lot of time and work into the cause nevertheless! I would say, though, that it was suggested on one of our pages that I was an agent of some sort, which I know is ridiculous, these rumours abound for some reason. From what people say about us on these forums, nobody takes us seriously anyway, so I think it is unlikely they would go to those lengths to watch us. They would only have to wander into camp and have a chat, after all.


  • #101
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    hippygran wrote: »
    Your suspicions have been noted. I must say that if he is what you say he is he's certainly putting a lot of time and work into the cause nevertheless! I would say, though, that it was suggested on one of our pages that I was an agent of some sort, which I know is ridiculous, these rumours abound for some reason. From what people say about us on these forums, nobody takes us seriously anyway, so I think it is unlikely they would go to those lengths to watch us. They would only have to wander into camp and have a chat, after all.

    I would also like to add that if you are going to make potentially libellous accusations, you should probably do it in person or at least under your own name.


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  • #102
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    wayne jobless wrote: »
    Dont take what im about to type as misinformation cause its not,I have no problem with the occupy movement itself but with a Certain individual who was on the cover of last weeks Galway Advertiser claiming to be the spokesman for ye're movment (he has a scruffy looking beard and wears wellington boots),set the alarm bells ringing in my mind

    Thanks for reading this!

    Rapidly followed up by.....
    Hippygran: Your suspicions have been noted. I must say that if he is what you say he is he's certainly putting a lot of time and work into the cause nevertheless! I would say, though, that it was suggested on one of our pages that I was an agent of some sort, which I know is ridiculous, these rumours abound for some reason. From what people say about us on these forums, nobody takes us seriously anyway, so I think it is unlikely they would go to those lengths to watch us. They would only have to wander into camp and have a chat, after all.

    Crikey,what have I wandered into here ?

    Perhaps Mr Chopra and the other learned and respected financial panjandrums might be better actually takin the time to visit Galway and immerse themselves in this culture of resistance...it sure sounds better than dull,boring oul graphs and pie-charts....:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #103
    wayne jobless
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭wayne jobless


    Hi there I wasn't saying you obvioulsy, i cant name any names but people have come to me and told me about this but Im not going to say anymore Ill leave it there, but i was told some things then asked to check out some things and altogether i found this not to make any sense and very disturbing, ae ye know people have the right to know the truth especially from someone who asks for the truth. Thanks.


  • #104
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    That's all well and good, but let's put it bluntly:

    1) is OG in line with ODS in saying EU/IMF out?
    2) if so, how do we fund ourselves?
    3) who promotes or controls the OG Facebook?
    4) why are they promoting freeman pseudo law?
    5) why, when informed they are doing so, was this position defended and the post remained up - I could understand an error, but when brought to their attention they defended it.



    Everything else is redundant. You think we want to make all these cuts? They are unfortunately necessary.

    1)Yes, I think I can safely say that we are in line with ODS on that issue and 2)it's not about how we fund ourselves, it's about the amount of control they have over our affairs. If you had a loan from the bank you wouldn't expect the bank manager to then be able to come into your house and tell you exactly what expenditure you should cut in order to repay it would you? You would expect to be able to make those decisions for yourself. Also, as stated in my previous post, if we weren't paying billions to Anglo Irish we would have more funds.
    3) Again, as previously stated, there are several admins on the OG Facebook. I know who most of them are, but don't intend on giving you a list.
    3,4 and 5) I suggest you go onto the OG Facebook page, comment on the post itself and ask these questions. I am not an admin and have already told you what I think about the freeman matter, which I still haven't had chance to look into.

    Is that blunt enough for you. With regard to funding, cuts etc, I would also like to draw your attention to this article, and ask you to note the list of signatories to this. There are people more intelligent and accomplished than you or I that believe there is another way through this mess...the cuts don't have to be necessary, just because the government says they do! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0120/1224310515186.html


  • #105
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Well look you clearly have a lot of anger and want to dismiss their views as moaning, and that's fine. But stop asking rhetorically what their views are because you know what they are you just choose to dismiss them.

    Please read my posts.

    With respect I was asking for their Views/grievances and their proposed solutions. Note the "and" in there.

    What are the OWS views and grievances? - varies with every single answer
    What are their proposed solutions to these grievances? - silence

    Anyone from any anti-war movement, equality movement, civil rights movement, etc could answer these questions clearly and directly. Its a fundamental basis for any kind of movement.

    The Occupy movement does not adhere to this. Everything about the modus operandi of the movement is (I believe) fundamentally flawed and wrong. I don't disagree with the majority of their many grievances/issues/etc, I just strongly disagree with their whole approach to "protesting" it.

    They seem much more interested with setting up Tomy's my first protest tent city, gathering members and tweeting about police encounters than actually genuinely tackling any single issue they have (and I'm not talking about toilet and tent related issues that seem to dominate their agenda)

    Again I am sorry for being scathing and critical, this is just my opinion.

    Democracy and capitalism are flawed and not perfect. Occupy are a movement who point out, complain and apportion blame for these flaws and imperfections yet don't take it on themselves to actually propose workable viable solutions. In my job, if we have a complaint, we are given all the tools we need, have a meeting and attempt to solve it. Sitting there, pointing out the problem and complaining about it certainly isn't going to solve it. Someone has to do it.

    And no, listening to John Lennon, legalising hemp and tearing down capitalism are not exactly viable realistic workable solutions :)

    /rant over


  • #106
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Firstly, thanks for replying. I just posted in the OG thread in Galway City forum because I perceived I may get a response there.
    hippygran wrote: »
    1)Yes, I think I can safely say that we are in line with ODS on that issue and 2)it's not about how we fund ourselves, it's about the amount of control they have over our affairs.
    Of course it is about how we fund ourselves. With the EU/IMF out, we would have no money. Could you explain where we get money if not from the EU/IMF?
    If you had a loan from the bank you wouldn't expect the bank manager to then be able to come into your house and tell you exactly what expenditure you should cut in order to repay it would you? You would expect to be able to make those decisions for yourself.
    No, I wouldn't, you are absolutely correct. To follow your analogy or tease it out; the usual procedure we follow to get funding (as do almost all other countries) is that we go to the "bank" and take a loan. The "bank manager" does not come in an tell us what to do - we just use the money as we wish and make the repayments (usually by taking another loan when the bonds mature or become due).

    What has happened to us is that we have gone to the "bank" and they have said that they will lend us money, but they will demand an interest rate on that loan of 14.04% on 10 year bonds. We simply could not accept that.
    So what we did was went to a lender of last resort, the Troika, who have offered to give us the loan at a 3.7% average interest rate. The condition is that they look at our books and say you need to make cuts in these areas and implement x, y, z.
    They do not say what specific cuts need to be made, that is our government, they simply say x% reduction in public expenditure, x% in bla bla bla... they do not say cut your jobseekers benefit by €10 or whatever.

    On the 13th of January our interest was 7.84% on bonds redeemable in 2020, still a significant amount above our current rate from the Troika. If we want the money we must fulfil the conditions, simples.

    The above is obviously a gross oversimplification but I think it's useful in illustrating the concept.
    Also, as stated in my previous post, if we weren't paying billions to Anglo Irish we would have more funds.
    Not necessarily, see here.
    3) Again, as previously stated, there are several admins on the OG Facebook. I know who most of them are, but don't intend on giving you a list.
    I ask that because another poster is attempting to say there is a disconnect between Facebook and the OG movement. I don't give a toss about who the "admins" are, once you are confirming it is the "official" OG account?
    3,4 and 5) I suggest you go onto the OG Facebook page, comment on the post itself and ask these questions. I am not an admin and have already told you what I think about the freeman matter, which I still haven't had chance to look into.
    I did ask and got no answer. Just change of topic and avoidance. I missed what you said about the Freeman matter (perhaps you could direct me to the post, even just tell me the post number).
    Is that blunt enough for you. With regard to funding, cuts etc, I would also like to draw your attention to this article, and ask you to note the list of signatories to this. There are people more intelligent and accomplished than you or I that believe there is another way through this mess...the cuts don't have to be necessary, just because the government says they do! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0120/1224310515186.html
    I wouldn't imagine there are any people on that list that are more intelligent than myself actually. I would tend to agree with some of the things they say; they are not thinking out the burning of bondholders though... and I have a significant problem with the concept of "redistribution" of wealth and assets.

    There is another way through the mess, but the occupy movement has it wrong.


  • #107
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Please read my posts.

    With respect I was asking for their Views/grievances and their proposed solutions. Note the "and" in there.

    What are the OWS views and grievances? - varies with every single answer
    What are their proposed solutions to these grievances? - silence

    Anyone from any anti-war movement, equality movement, civil rights movement, etc could answer these questions clearly and directly. Its a fundamental basis for any kind of movement.

    The Occupy movement does not adhere to this. Everything about the modus operandi of the movement is (I believe) fundamentally flawed and wrong. I don't disagree with the majority of their many grievances/issues/etc, I just strongly disagree with their whole approach to "protesting" it.

    They seem much more interested with setting up Tomy's my first protest tent city, gathering members and tweeting about police encounters than actually genuinely tackling any single issue they have (and I'm not talking about toilet and tent related issues that seem to dominate their agenda)

    Again I am sorry for being scathing and critical, this is just my opinion.

    Democracy and capitalism are flawed and not perfect. Occupy are a movement who point out, complain and apportion blame for these flaws and imperfections yet don't take it on themselves to actually propose workable viable solutions. In my job, if we have a complaint, we are given all the tools we need, have a meeting and attempt to solve it. Sitting there, pointing out the problem and complaining about it certainly isn't going to solve it. Someone has to do it.

    And no, listening to John Lennon, legalising hemp and tearing down capitalism are not exactly viable realistic workable solutions :)

    /rant over

    I don't think I can add much to this that I didn't say in my previous post. However, I would like to point out that we don't 'sit there pointing out the problem and complaining about it', we sit there, point out the problem and discuss it. Maybe this will lead to solutions, who knows?
    I appreciate that you don't agree with the way in which the protest is being held and I do understand why, that is your perogative of course. However, I fail to see how it really inconveniences you. Can't you just agree to live and let live?
    I'm not a great fan of John Lennon and I don't want to tear down capitalism. Legalising hemp would be a good idea of course, but the oil industry would take some persuading to allow that!


  • #108
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Please read my posts.

    With respect I was asking for their Views/grievances and their proposed solutions. Note the "and" in there.

    What are the OWS views and grievances? - varies with every single answer
    What are their proposed solutions to these grievances? - silence

    Anyone from any anti-war movement, equality movement, civil rights movement, etc could answer these questions clearly and directly. Its a fundamental basis for any kind of movement.

    The Occupy movement does not adhere to this. Everything about the modus operandi of the movement is (I believe) fundamentally flawed and wrong. I don't disagree with the majority of their many grievances/issues/etc, I just strongly disagree with their whole approach to "protesting" it.

    They seem much more interested with setting up Tomy's my first protest tent city, gathering members and tweeting about police encounters than actually genuinely tackling any single issue they have (and I'm not talking about toilet and tent related issues that seem to dominate their agenda)

    Again I am sorry for being scathing and critical, this is just my opinion.

    Democracy and capitalism are flawed and not perfect. Occupy are a movement who point out, complain and apportion blame for these flaws and imperfections yet don't take it on themselves to actually propose workable viable solutions. In my job, if we have a complaint, we are given all the tools we need, have a meeting and attempt to solve it. Sitting there, pointing out the problem and complaining about it certainly isn't going to solve it. Someone has to do it.

    And no, listening to John Lennon, legalising hemp and tearing down capitalism are not exactly viable realistic workable solutions :)

    /rant over

    Their solution is that people take a more active interest in what their politicians are doing, which is a good thing and if more people paid closer attention to what's going on then it reduces the chances of things repeating themselves.

    Of course, some people think that a solution has to be some radical new form of government, usually ending in ism and likewise with many different versions of what the doctrine means e.g. communism, libertarianism etc


  • #109
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Firstly, thanks for replying. I just posted in the OG thread in Galway City forum because I perceived I may get a response there.


    Of course it is about how we fund ourselves. With the EU/IMF out, we would have no money. Could you explain where we get money if not from the EU/IMF?

    <text deleted to save page length>

    I did ask and got no answer. Just change of topic and avoidance. I missed what you said about the Freeman matter (perhaps you could direct me to the post, even just tell me the post number).


    I wouldn't imagine there are any people on that list that are more intelligent than myself actually. I would tend to agree with some of the things they say; they are not thinking out the burning of bondholders though... and I have a significant problem with the concept of "redistribution" of wealth and assets.

    There is another way through the mess, but the occupy movement has it wrong.

    This is what I said about the freeman matter..it is on page 6. We have several admins on our facebook page and someone thought this was interesting enough to post, I don't think sharing a page really counts as promoting, but I do see your point. I don't know anything about this subject really, it is something I have heard mentioned a lot lately but I haven't looked into it. It sounds like an interesting idea, if only from an academic point of view, and a good subject for discussion but, in my opinion, it shouldn't be published under the group name. It is something I will raise for discussion when I am back at camp.
    Beyond that, I can't help you on this matter.

    With regard to the rest of your post, I don't feel qualified to disagree with you and I daresay your facts are correct. All I could do is try to find some of the articles that I have read that have led me to believe we don't have to be in the mess we are in, and that the wrong people are suffering to repay bankers mistakes, but I don't have time for that.
    Maybe I am wrong, I am always willing to revise my opinion based on new facts. I will look into the things that you have said on this post, but I don't have the time to do that now. I am not avoiding answering your points, just admitting that you are more knowledgeable than me and I am unable to debate the matter with you.

    You may also be right about the occupy movement having it wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it has caught people's attention and has provided an opening for discussion..and the people who might have the right ideas will rise to the forefront in time, I suspect.


  • #110
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    hippygran wrote: »
    This is what I said about the freeman matter..it is on page 6. We have several admins on our facebook page and someone thought this was interesting enough to post, I don't think sharing a page really counts as promoting, but I do see your point. I don't know anything about this subject really, it is something I have heard mentioned a lot lately but I haven't looked into it. It sounds like an interesting idea, if only from an academic point of view, and a good subject for discussion but, in my opinion, it shouldn't be published under the group name. It is something I will raise for discussion when I am back at camp.
    Beyond that, I can't help you on this matter.

    With regard to the rest of your post, I don't feel qualified to disagree with you and I daresay your facts are correct. All I could do is try to find some of the articles that I have read that have led me to believe we don't have to be in the mess we are in, and that the wrong people are suffering to repay bankers mistakes, but I don't have time for that.
    Maybe I am wrong, I am always willing to revise my opinion based on new facts. I will look into the things that you have said on this post, but I don't have the time to do that now. I am not avoiding answering your points, just admitting that you are more knowledgeable than me and I am unable to debate the matter with you.

    You may also be right about the occupy movement having it wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it has caught people's attention and has provided an opening for discussion..and the people who might have the right ideas will rise to the forefront in time, I suspect.

    for God's sake people were discussing the economic situation etc long long before ye arrived on the scene ..and we'll be a long long time waiting for anyone to 'rise' from OG - thanks for the laugh tho'


  • #111
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    ...and again i get no response. For a group that claim to represent "the 99%" you only seem to be focused on the views of the 0.00000whatever% in Occupy.


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  • #112
    hippygran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭hippygran


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    wow I deliberately ignore the Occupy Galway/Dame St. groups for about 2 months and absolutely nothing has changed with them. Still they are unable to outline what they wish to achieve in a clear articulate manner, still they speak in general terms and refuse to live by the basic principals of what they say and still they go on the offensive when criticised. somebody used the term self righteous a few posts up and I couldnt agree more. I put it to you hippygran or any other OG protester, what have you achieved via occupy Galway? when do the effects become visible?

    I have talked to a protester in Galway face to face and I didnt get any answers, hopefully someone can change that

    I am sorry but I have explained myself as much as I am going to and as clearly as I can, if my answers still don't satisfy you then that's your problem not mine anymore. I am not breaking any laws by being part of OG, we are causing no problems as confirmed by the garda in two separate newspaper articles. I am tired of being cross examined on these forums and being told that I am not responding when I have explained at length, and your 'tone' in your post is exactly what I am not prepared to put up with any more. 'I put it to you'! Who the f... do you think you are?


  • #113
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    I know I am a small particle of irish society, an opinion, a particle of the "99%", I am angry with the way the country has been run and is being run, similar to the occupy movement.

    I don't however think that occupy is illegal so I will ignore that part of your post. I also don't think occupy holds the answers, which is the main reason I am posting. The group are so fond of spouting their holier than thou attitude towards everyone else but dont like being on the recieving end of scrutiny.


  • #114
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    hippygran wrote: »
    I am sorry but I have explained myself as much as I am going to and as clearly as I can, if my answers still don't satisfy you then that's your problem not mine anymore. I am not breaking any laws by being part of OG, we are causing no problems as confirmed by the garda in two separate newspaper articles. I am tired of being cross examined on these forums and being told that I am not responding when I have explained at length, and your 'tone' in your post is exactly what I am not prepared to put up with any more. 'I put it to you'! Who the f... do you think you are?
    ''I put it to you'' is a much more acceptable way of directly asking you a question, your colleague eireman was outright rude and ignorant on here, explain storming the chambers and intimidating people - ok they were councillors - Ollie Crowe is an idiot coming out with that statement - he opens his mouth and invariably out comes a stream of verbal diarrhoea we can all agree - but Hippygran this is the point I've made all along - I object to you in my hometown Square because your 'occupation' is based on half truths and deception , you have successfully divided the 99%- and you go on and on circling the issues you say you don't fully understand- Freeman bs is being promoted on your fb page - I put it to you - do ye not talk to each other in that camp at all???? Seems the hidden agenda is concealed even from yourself....and is there no support at the camp for your good self either??
    And you can scan the accounts of where public donations have been spent - no need to type them up - still waiting....


    Oh and Ms Borg most certainly has an online presence - her fb profile was taken down shortly after establishing OG - but that's not the only profile visible... More bs from her. How convenient for her,!!
    Fact is, for you tho' Hippygran, you're on your own here on boards....a fact I would admire you for except that your answers do more to fudge the issues than shed any light on our queries.
    Scan the accounts you don't have to type them up - what's the problem there - well of course if you can't account for the spending then there is a BIG problem.....
    Occupy Wall Street received large amounts in donations , over 400,000, it's possible OG is receiving one or two hundred a week - this issue has been ongoing since November when one of your own posted on OG fb page about members partying at the camp and stated ON OG'S FACEBOOK PROFILE PAGE that the 'finances are a mess' of course these posts were deleted. Do you think we have such a short memory OG?? Also this issue was on Twitter - until OG tried to put it down to their a/c being hacked .

    Scan the accounts - be transparent !!

    And yes, I did donate on three separate occasions , at least 45 euro!! I posted this before!!!


  • #115
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    c_man wrote: »
    Well there's nothing much to say to that. You believe that it's okay for an extreme minority to take that which belongs to all the people, the 99% if you will. That's that.

    +1


  • #116
    Lockstep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Debate raging about OG on the Galway Advertiser page


  • #117
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    Occupy Galway's venture into 'fundraising' is somewhat bizarre - searching their fb page there is no reference to how much was raised, I thought this would have been a perfect opportunity for them to publish and promote the monies raised seeing as it might have polished a tarnished reputation for themselves regarding their failure to account for public donations received into their camp to date.
    Pity to have to enquire about this - but it's just another perfect example of their policies - Freeman philosophy - 'what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine'

    They will continue to take and give absolutely nothing in return.

    They will give one thing tho' - bad hygiene - what toilet / washing facilities are they using???

    How can they offer 'cups of tea' to the public in an environment where there are absolutely no washing facilities?

    yuk


  • #118
    GV2012
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭GV2012


    Inclusion wrote: »
    Occupy Galway's venture into 'fundraising' is somewhat bizarre - searching their fb page there is no reference to how much was raised, I thought this would have been a perfect opportunity for them to publish and promote the monies raised seeing as it might have polished a tarnished reputation for themselves regarding their failure to account for public donations received into their camp to date.
    Pity to have to enquire about this - but it's just another perfect example of their policies - Freeman philosophy - 'what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine'

    They will continue to take and give absolutely nothing in return.

    They will give one thing tho' - bad hygiene - what toilet / washing facilities are they using???

    How can they offer 'cups of tea' to the public in an environment where there are absolutely no washing facilities?

    yuk

    Reported your post as you seme to be implying there's something wrong with running charity events and not broadcasting to the world what was made, not everyone whores themselves out like that ya know, there were reps from the charities at these gigs, now cop yourself on


  • #119
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    GV2012 wrote: »
    Reported your post as you seme to be implying there's something wrong with running charity events and not broadcasting to the world what was made, not everyone whores themselves out like that ya know, there were reps from the charities at these gigs, now cop yourself on


    As this is your first post, you have probably missed all of the previous debate in this and other threads and as a result don't understand the point being made.

    One of key points put forward by ODS and OG supporters over the last few months was that we should have more transparency, information and accountability in government and an end to cronyism. They have failed to understand the irony and hypocrisy in not doing the same with regards to their own funding and fund-raising. If OG and ODS were not calling for transparency, openness, accountability and an end to cronyism, then this would not be an issue.


  • #120
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    GV2012 wrote: »
    Reported your post as you seme to be implying there's something wrong with running charity events and not broadcasting to the world what was made, not everyone whores themselves out like that ya know, there were reps from the charities at these gigs, now cop yourself on

    The viciousness from OG is breathtaking .:(


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  • #121
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    GV2012 wrote: »
    Reported your post as you seme to be implying there's something wrong with running charity events and not broadcasting to the world what was made, not everyone whores themselves out like that ya know, there were reps from the charities at these gigs, now cop yourself on
    As I pointed out in the Galway thread (conveniently ignored), it is an offence under section 41 of The Charities Act 2009 for an unregistered charitable organisation to carry on activities within the State. That same act also contains provisions that require registered charitable organisations to properly record and make available their records in both Irish and English, to both the state and the public.


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