Possible Irish SOPA Law? :/

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 1:27pm #1

The main article is here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1219/1224309259318.html?via=mr

But to summarise, Minister of State for Enterprise Seán Sherlock is to publish an "order" (no idea what this is tbh) this month that is expected to allow music publishers, film producers and other parties to go to court to force ISP's to block access to pirate websites.
It seems that Minister of State for Enterprise Seán Sherlock has written to music publisher EMI Ireland confirming the order will be published and incorporated into existing legislation in January.

This morning I read this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0112/1224310141468.html

It seems that the IRMA (Irish version of RIAA) is now going to court against the Government to try and lob more pressure on them to enact this law. It also seems to all be happening very quickly tbh.

What got me onto this whole topic was this blog (a bit sensationalist but the guy has a point at the end of the day)
http://blog.newswhip.com/index.php/2012/01/will-ireland-block-the-internet-to-save-cds/

Personally I dont think that any Law's should be passed because a Private company is lobbying or pressuring for it. In fact I think that there should be more scrutiny in these cases.

At the moment my main issue is that there is not enough info out there on what could be potentially passed. Also, it seems to be getting passed in record time (I mean this hit the papers a month ago and its supposed to be passed by the end of Jan) which is kind of scary.
I sent an email to the office of Minister of State for Enterprise Seán Sherlock (which I have attached) but its not very well worded and I doubt I'll get the response I am looking for.

I was hoping to find out what other people know about this, and what people think. Personally I think this can only be a bad thing and legislation like what this seems to be can only be abused by the larger corps against smaller companies, especially start-ups. I am extremely concerned about all the review blogs and similar pages like that (of which I know a few people doing hoping to get a career out of it) as if they are targeted it will only be a loss for the public and for them. And the worst would be targeted use of this, letting some sites go on cause they are more benefit than others and shutting down others doing exactly the same thing but yet these are less helpful than the other ones. Could lead to a whole other thing...

Any thoughts?

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 1:33pm

Oh, and for anyone interested there are some pages already up talking about this on FB and twitter
https://www.facebook.com/StopSOPAIreland
https://twitter.com/#!/NoSOPAIreland

post more if you have em

21-01-2012 1:40pm

Those for the passing of the law are constantly pointing to the figure regarding the fall of CD sales. Sherlock himself said that the government was losing out on tax because downloading has do hurt sales if CDs.

What they all seem to ignore us that falling CD sales are not the result of rampant piracy but ratcher a change in the manner through which people get their music. Look at iTunes or amazon or play it any of the numerous websites offering legal options to purchase digital downloads through. Millions of tracks are legally purchased through them each year. Look at the past decade and the popularity of ringtones. How many teenagers, one if thebuggedt markets for music chose to simply download the tracks they wanted to their phones rather than pay anything from 13-23 euro for a CD.

There are numerous reasons why CD sales are falling and piracy is only one small aspect if it. The biggest issue is that CDs are no longer value for money aswell as the fact that they are an obselete format. iPods, computers and other digital devices have replaced the CD player and considering that why go to the trouble of having to head into town to buy a CD when any album you want is instantly available legally at the click of a mouse.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 21-01-2012 1:42pm

Was there not a European ruling recently that ISPs cannot be forced to block websites?

EU Court Ruling

To summarize: ISPs are not required to proactively search out and block pirated material.

Edit: Personally, if the material was made available cheap enough, I reckon you'd see a big decrease in the number of people downloading illegally. Look at how popular Netflix has become. And it's only been available a few weeks. :cool:

Toby Take a Bow · 21-01-2012 1:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What they all seem to ignore us that falling CD sales are not the result of rampant piracy but ratcher a change in the manner through which people get their music.

Yeah, I saw a graph (not sure of the veracity or otherwise) which seemed to suggest that the downturn in CD sales was nearly equally matched by the increase in downloads. Of course, this was being measured in download vs CD purchase, which meant that (as far as I understood the article) that it included people just purchasing the odd song off an album rather than the whole thing. I think the music industry seems to be more worried about this aspect (people actually choosing what they want to purchase rather than a whole album of what the consumer perceives as mostly filler) rather than anything else.

Seems a case of that king who claimed he could push back the tide at this point, though.

Pacifist Pigeon · 21-01-2012 1:46pm

RIP Internet

squod · 21-01-2012 1:46pm

More jobs for Iceland. Some needs to sacked over this asap.

kirving · 21-01-2012 1:48pm

I'd put money on it being far easier for Anonymous to take down Irish government websites than the FBI website. Should be a funny day.

Of course, everyone will just shut up and accept it since FG will blame the recession on piracy.

Celly Smunt · 21-01-2012 1:49pm

Whatever about the recession and all that,but if something like that came in There would be a national emergency called because of the riots it would incur.

21-01-2012 1:54pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

What they all seem to ignore us that falling CD sales are not the result of rampant piracy but ratcher a change in the manner through which people get their music.

Yeah, I saw a graph (not sure of the veracity or otherwise) which seemed to suggest that the downturn in CD sales was nearly equally matched by the increase in downloads. Of course, this was being measured in download vs CD purchase, which meant that (as far as I understood the article) that it included people just purchasing the odd song off an album rather than the whole thing. I think the music industry seems to be more worried about this aspect (people actually choosing what they want to purchase rather than a whole album of what the consumer perceives as mostly filler) rather than anything else.

Seems a case of that king who claimed he could push back the tide at this point, though.

The beauty of downloading is that you don't have to put up with the crap thats regularly include on many albums. There's a reson that CD players had a skip button and thanks to digital downloads you don't need one anymore as you can pick the good stuff and leave the filler alone. It terrifies companies like EMI as they can no longer make major profits off of a hastily released Best of album that includes 1 or 2 classics mixed in with the tracks no one wants. Think of how many mediocre artists have multiple best of albums with each one only getting one or two actual hits. Hell how many one hit wonders have a best of available that sold thousands of copies thanks to that one song.

With digital downloading that type of crdp doesn't work any more and record companies are terrified. But when you consider that the a stage ticket price has at least doubled if not tripled in cost over the past decade you really have to wonder just how much piracy could hurt them.

nommm · 21-01-2012 1:56pm

This is absolutely ridiculous. You can't block all 'pirate sites', it would be impossible and it would also ignore the fact that many of us use these sites for perfectly legitimate reasons such as backing up our files or sending huge files to other people. I actually know a casting agent that relies on clients uploading their audition tapes for her business.

This really shows how out of touch the politicians in this country are. There's so many social problems that need to be tackled and yet again they're concentrating on corporate interests.

I too will be sending an email to Sean Sherlock about this and I'd encourage others on boards.ie to do the same. His email address is sean.sherlock@oir.ie.

21-01-2012 1:59pm

I sent a number if emails to Sean Sherlock regarding this when it was first mentioned a few months back. I pointed out the EU law, digital downloads, ect and asked why was it that the Irish government was lobbying on behalf of private companies to help protect profits and restrict access to the Internet. I asked him would they allow sites such as Flickr to be removed as there are numerous copyrighted images on the site or if they would take in google, yahoo, bing, etc which offer easied access to copyright material than any other site. I asked him to provide me with documents/proof that could link the fall of CDs with piracy.

I've yet to receive a reply.

Gunmonkey · 21-01-2012 2:00pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Yeah, I saw a graph (not sure of the veracity or otherwise) which seemed to suggest that the downturn in CD sales was nearly equally matched by the increase in downloads. Of course, this was being measured in download vs CD purchase, which meant that (as far as I understood the article) that it included people just purchasing the odd song off an album rather than the whole thing. I think the music industry seems to be more worried about this aspect (people actually choosing what they want to purchase rather than a whole album of what the consumer perceives as mostly filler) rather than anything else.

Problem being the record companies are pig-ignorant of downloads. Read an interview with the head of an Irish RC (could have been EMI) a few year or so ago claiming digital downloads were a "fad" and they were actively pushing to get "record" sales back on top.

Love how they see a business model thats easier, cheaper and more easily accessable to their customers and ignore it. They are the winners at business :rolleyes:

krudler · 21-01-2012 2:01pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Whatever about the recession and all that,but if something like that came in There would be a national emergency called because of the riots it would incur.

pfff, if we wouldnt riot for having the country near bankrupted we wont do it for this.

ygolometsipe · 21-01-2012 2:02pm

How about this.

The government should figure out how much is lost to illegal downloading
and work out the average cost to every citizen. Then just have a blanket "illegal activity tax" kinda like the (tv licence aka house broadcasting tax)

Im sure it would be very expensive. maybe 10-20K per person a year
but since im in the hole for ~100K with the bailout, I would'nt mind another 20K.
At least it would help get through the depression, cos I could watch loads and loads of NON-RTE ****e

happy days for all!!

* I may or may not be serious.

krudler · 21-01-2012 2:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The beauty of downloading is that you don't have to put up with the crap thats regularly include on many albums. There's a reson that CD players had a skip button and thanks to digital downloads you don't need one anymore as you can pick the good stuff and leave the filler alone. It terrifies companies like EMI as they can no longer make major profits off of a hastily released Best of album that includes 1 or 2 classics mixed in with the tracks no one wants. Think of how many mediocre artists have multiple best of albums with each one only getting one or two actual hits. Hell how many one hit wonders have a best of available that sold thousands of copies thanks to that one song.

With digital downloading that type of crdp doesn't work any more and record companies are terrified. But when you consider that the a stage ticket price has at least doubled if not tripled in cost over the past decade you really have to wonder just how much piracy could hurt them.

dont most artists make their money on live shows anyway? the record companies make most of the profit on the cd sales afaik, so in that case, fcuk em. support the artist not the record shills.

Toby Take a Bow · 21-01-2012 2:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

With digital downloading that type of crdp doesn't work any more and record companies are terrified. But when you consider that the a stage ticket price has at least doubled if not tripled in cost over the past decade you really have to wonder just how much piracy could hurt them.

For sure. I also find it amusing how much they concentrate on CDs when even mp3s are considered (by some) to be becoming old-fashioned. Things like Spotify and their ilk will kill even the problem of downloading the odd songs from filler albums even more redundant.

Having said all that, I still buy CDs and vinyl from bands and artists that I know are putting together albums of quality material. But I certainly won't be paying 15 euro or whatever to hear one song from an artist I think is kind of okay. Youtube/spotify all the way for that sort of thing.

A lot of other articles are arguing about how this whole paying for music is a recent thing. I guess the music industry (understandably, of course) are terrified that we'll be going back to that period where there really wasn't a huge amount of money in the music business.

Jesus Shaves · 21-01-2012 2:04pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

For sure. I also find it amusing how much they concentrate on CDs when even mp3s are considered (by some) to be becoming old-fashioned. Things like Spotify and their ilk will kill even the problem of downloading the odd songs from filler albums even more redundant.

Having said all that, I still buy CDs and vinyl from bands and artists that I know are putting together albums of quality material. But I certainly won't be paying 15 euro or whatever to hear one song from an artist I think is kind of okay. Youtube/spotify all the way for that sort of thing.

A lot of other articles are arguing about how this whole paying for music is a recent thing. I guess the music industry (understandably, of course) are terrified that we'll be going back to that period where there really wasn't a huge amount of money in the music business.

you still buy vinyl??? hardcore man!

Biggins · 21-01-2012 2:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I sent a number if emails to Sean Sherlock regarding this when it was first mentioned a few months back. I pointed out the EU law, digital downloads, ect and asked why was it that the Irish government was lobbying on behalf of private companies to help protect profits and restrict access to the Internet. I asked him would they allow sites such as Flickr to be removed as there are numerous copyrighted images on the site or if they would take in google, yahoo, bing, etc which offer easied access to copyright material than any other site. I asked him to provide me with documents/proof that could link the fall of CDs with piracy.

I've yet to receive a reply.

Fair play - keep at him!

Jesus Shaves · 21-01-2012 2:08pm

Anyone set up a petition yet?

Celly Smunt · 21-01-2012 2:08pm

krudler wrote: »

pfff, if we wouldnt riot for having the country near bankrupted we wont do it for this.

i like the internet though,the economy is boring.

21-01-2012 2:09pm

Look at it this way, in the US in 2010 sales of CDs (albums) dropped 12.8% but legal digital downloads of full albums rose by 13%. Those two figures say all you need to know about the issue.

Sales if singles/ 1 song iff of an album through digital downloads also rose considerably.

nommm · 21-01-2012 2:13pm

But really, with the record companies backing the likes of LMFAO, Pitbull, One Direction, Jessie J etc. is it any wonder people aren't spending money on their CD's. I've found more and more that I'm buying albums from lesser known bands that record companies have decided to neglect and not give a good promo budget.

Another reason for CD sales going down is leaks. Albums are regularly leaked weeks and even months before their release date. This should not be happening. How hard is it to keep something securely locked away from untrustworthy people for a few months. When something is leaked a month before it's release, I usually have the intention of buying it at a later date but I usually end up forgetting about it.

There's also a problem when a few of an artists new songs are leaked and the record company decides to delay the release of the album. There's only so long a fan can wait before their intial interest wanes.

In my opinion, the record companies have no one but themselves to blame for the mess they currently find themselves in.

strobe · 21-01-2012 2:18pm

Ahh you know what, I know nothing about all this interneting stuff but I'm pretty sure it would take me 10 minutes on google to find a work around for this if it ever came in, what with proxies and that Tor network thing and what have you, I'm sure there's loads of other ways as well that I haven't heard about.

What a waste of time. It's like they're trying to fight a swarm of wasps with a sledge hammer from what I can see.

21-01-2012 2:25pm

Biggins wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I sent a number if emails to Sean Sherlock regarding this when it was first mentioned a few months back. I pointed out the EU law, digital downloads, ect and asked why was it that the Irish government was lobbying on behalf of private companies to help protect profits and restrict access to the Internet. I asked him would they allow sites such as Flickr to be removed as there are numerous copyrighted images on the site or if they would take in google, yahoo, bing, etc which offer easied access to copyright material than any other site. I asked him to provide me with documents/proof that could link the fall of CDs with piracy.

I've yet to receive a reply.

Fair play - keep at him!

Sent him one there asking that he have the decency to respond to me as I doubt that EMI's emails go unresponded to. Also let him know that I'll be emailing other members of the government regarding the issue.

Jesus Shaves · 21-01-2012 2:39pm

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-governmentsean-sherlock-cease-plans-to-bring-in-legislation-which-is-similar-to-sopapipa

Solair · 21-01-2012 2:48pm

Ireland should absolutely not do anything that could be seen to be remotely anti-internet or damaging to the free-flow of information online.

We are a small country and we should be trying to encourage IT companies to base here not being innovators in internet crack downs!

If you impose draconian laws you could endanger all sorts of future investments in Ireland from major IT companies. Any 'cloud' based service could potentially have material on it that might possibly break insanely tight copyright laws.

How much money does Ireland Inc. make from CD sales?? I would doubt it makes very much.

Vs. how much money do we make from inward investment from Google (YouTube), Facebook, Twitter, and umpteen other companies all of whom operate in the zone of free-flow of information.

We will scare off "cloud computing" investors, scare off companies from putting major networking infrastructure here etc etc etc.

The Government would want to tread very carefully and not just cave in to media company lobbyists.

Bureaucrat · 21-01-2012 2:50pm

Not much to worry about. These operations can still go underground. I reckon around 80% of the Internet isn't even indexed by search engines. The decentralized nature of TCP/IP will ensure these measures fail.

A big kerfuffle over very little it would seem...

AlmightyCushion · 21-01-2012 3:05pm

Solair wrote: »

Ireland should absolutely not do anything that could be seen to be remotely anti-internet or damaging to the free-flow of information online.

We are a small country and we should be trying to encourage IT companies to base here not being innovators in internet crack downs!

If you impose draconian laws you could endanger all sorts of future investments in Ireland from major IT companies. Any 'cloud' based service could potentially have material on it that might possibly break insanely tight copyright laws.

How much money does Ireland Inc. make from CD sales?? I would doubt it makes very much.

Vs. how much money do we make from inward investment from Google (YouTube), Facebook, Twitter, and umpteen other companies all of whom operate in the zone of free-flow of information.

We will scare off "cloud computing" investors, scare off companies from putting major networking infrastructure here etc etc etc.

The Government would want to tread very carefully and not just cave in to media company lobbyists.

This is my biggest concern. Many tech companies were against SOPA, Google and Facebook included. While this law isn't as bad as SOPA it's still bad and could really hurt our image in the IT industry which is actually performing really well here.

EarlERizer · 21-01-2012 3:08pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

For sure.....Having said all that, I still buy CDs and vinyl from bands and artists that I know are putting together albums of quality material. But I certainly won't be paying 15 euro or whatever to hear one song from an artist I think is kind of okay. Youtube/spotify all the way for that sort of thing......

Good man,long live the licorice pizza!!

darokane wrote: »

you still buy vinyl??? hardcore man!

You never lose your Hardcore & Hardcore will never die (as the tunes went)

I only became aware of all this SOPA talk in the last few days (via YouTube) ,dont know a whole lot about it as I didnt give it much thought to be honest (*too busy illegally downloading!

) ......... but I seen this last night, dont know wheter it's of any interest to you lot but here ya go ....

http://mashable.com/2012/01/20/sopa-is-dead-smith-pulls-bill/

Now there on about sonething else called PIPA.

My thoughts on the Music Industry probably belong in the 'Conspiracy' forum, between the shyte been churned out & the rubbish we have to endure on our main radio stations (anyone who spends their working day having the listen to the same station for 8-9 hrs ,5 days a week will know what I mean) , the same repeated crap is been force feed to the people via TV,Big name labels & radio and also in print........they fear the interweb because it gives us much more freedom of choice and how dare we take such liberties!

Didn't RADIOHEAD give an new album away via free download a couple of years ago? and the AFKAP,Symbol or Prince (whats he called these days) was able to give a new album away free (albeit in CD form) via a tabloid publication earlier last year (or the year before)?

Personally I think artists should be running themselves as a business/ i-business and not relying on big labels, after all "its not about the money man,fook the money,its about the music" or so alot of them tell us.

Google are the new monster to be wary of,their You Tube is changing from March 1st to a newer Youbook or FaceTube style.

*joke, i dont illegally download

EclipsiumRasa · 21-01-2012 3:13pm

EarlERizer wrote: »

Good man,long live the licorice pizza!!
Didn't RADIOHEAD give an new album away via free download a couple of years ago? and the AFKAP,Symbol or Prince (whats he called these days) was able to give a new album away free (albeit in CD form) via a tabloid publication earlier last year (or the year before)?

Don't know about a full album, they did release a few songs for free.

Trent Reznor released an album - The Slip - for free in 2008.

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 3:19pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Whatever about the recession and all that,but if something like that came in There would be a national emergency called because of the riots it would incur.

I cant imagine Irish people rioting. I can imagine them bitching about it until the cows come home but actually doing something.... would be nice to see though

Deleted User wrote: »

I sent a number if emails to Sean Sherlock regarding this when it was first mentioned a few months back. I pointed out the EU law, digital downloads, ect and asked why was it that the Irish government was lobbying on behalf of private companies to help protect profits and restrict access to the Internet. I asked him would they allow sites such as Flickr to be removed as there are numerous copyrighted images on the site or if they would take in google, yahoo, bing, etc which offer easied access to copyright material than any other site. I asked him to provide me with documents/proof that could link the fall of CDs with piracy.

I've yet to receive a reply.

Clearly then more direct action is required. I was hoping he would be kind enough to reply but clearly its time to start making more noise

darokane wrote: »

Anyone set up a petition yet?

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-governmentsean-sherlock-cease-plans-to-bring-in-legislation-which-is-similar-to-sopapipa

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at it this way, in the US in 2010 sales of CDs (albums) dropped 12.8% but legal digital downloads of full albums rose by 13%. Those two figures say all you need to know about the issue.

Sales if singles/ 1 song iff of an album through digital downloads also rose considerably.

I'd love to see where those figures came from. Not that I doubt you, but actually to use them in an argument or post some other place if needed

strobe wrote: »

Ahh you know what, I know nothing about all this interneting stuff but I'm pretty sure it would take me 10 minutes on google to find a work around for this if it ever came in, what with proxies and that Tor network thing and what have you, I'm sure there's loads of other ways as well that I haven't heard about.

What a waste of time. It's like they're trying to fight a swarm of wasps with a sledge hammer from what I can see.

I think the important but there is "I know nothing about all this interneting stuff"

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:24pm

I heard this was coming in December so I am downloading like a lunatic. With the mega upload bust and this also similar legislation been proposed in Britain it is looking like the golden age of media piracy is coming to an end.

21-01-2012 3:26pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at it this way, in the US in 2010 sales of CDs (albums) dropped 12.8% but legal digital downloads of full albums rose by 13%. Those two figures say all you need to know about the issue.

Sales if singles/ 1 song iff of an album through digital downloads also rose considerably.

I'd love to see where those figures came from. Not that I doubt you, but actually to use them in an argument or post some other place if needed
"

Mentioned here: http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/industry/retail/u-s-album-sales-dropped-12-8-last-year-digital-1004137880.story

strobe · 21-01-2012 3:29pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

I think the important bit there is "I know nothing about all this interneting stuff"

Yeah well man, like I said, I don't. I mean am I wrong? Is there not ways that you could work around an ISP block on certain websites?

Phill Ewinn · 21-01-2012 3:30pm

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:39pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:40pm

strobe wrote: »

Yeah well man, like I said, I don't. I mean am I wrong? Is there not ways that you could work around an ISP block on certain websites?

TPB has already started to move away from torrents so even blocking the traffic to trackers will soon be useless.

Course there's other methods that have been around longer than the internet, they're still around and thriving. This is one of those things that I'd really wish people would realise that trying to fight it will have little to no positive result but plenty of negative. Good ol' Politics though, have to be seen to be doing something.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:42pm

44leto wrote: »

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

Where does the money that "you would have spent" on the stuff you pirated go? I assume you buy other things that have VAT on them?

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:46pm

amacachi wrote: »

TPB has already started to move away from torrents so even blocking the traffic to trackers will soon be useless.

Course there's other methods that have been around longer than the internet, they're still around and thriving. This is one of those things that I'd really wish people would realise that trying to fight it will have little to no positive result but plenty of negative. Good ol' Politics though, have to be seen to be doing something.

You could stop it, my ISP knows what I download, Google knows. You could get a proxy concealer but even then the material goes to my IP address. So it is just a case of them adding an algorithm to see what is going onto my machine.

21-01-2012 3:48pm

44leto wrote: »

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

There's a loss of VAT but that's not due to piracy but rather that people are choosing digital downloads over traditional CD. Who is going to purchase a new release album for between 13-23 euro when amazon offer a convenient digital download for 9 euro. Factor in that you don't even have to leave the house, it's available 24/7 and can be dragged and dropped to your portable device and there's no real incentive to get the CD

Fluorescence · 21-01-2012 3:48pm

Don't forget about the international act ACTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_bERAf5KAg

America, Japan,, Singapore, Canada and Australia have already signed, and the EU is set to sign at the end of the month if we don't start putting major pressures on our ministers.

Emails aren't effective. One thing the Americans discovered when combatting SOPA/PIPA was that calling up their representatives and companies backing the acts was extremely effective. Having the other person at the end of the line stuttering and clearly having no idea what they're talking about can make them seriously re-evaluate their position.

A lot of the people signing in this act will be non-internet folk who have no idea just how seriously damaging acts like these will have on free speech and the economy.

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:51pm

amacachi wrote: »

Where does the money that "you would have spent" on the stuff you pirated go? I assume you buy other things that have VAT on them?

Not really relevant, where it doesn't go is into the wages of an extravision staff or a record shop employee who also pay tax. This is not a victimless crime. Its theft and I know it is, so should you. What gives you the right to steal other peoples copy righted and intellectual property.

My justification is simple and pathetic "everyone else is doing it".

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a loss of VAT but that's not due to piracy but rather that people are choosing digital downloads over traditional CD. Who is going to purchase a new release album for between 13-23 euro when amazon offer a convenient digital download for 9 euro. Factor in that you don't even have to leave the house, it's available 24/7 and can be dragged and dropped to your portable device and there's no real incentive to get the CD

Amazon still pay VAT on that sale, but to the British government.
All I know is there use to be at least 6 video shops within a mile of me, now there is one, the same for record shops.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:57pm

44leto wrote: »

Not really relevant, where it doesn't go is into the wages of an extravision staff or a record shop employee who also pay tax. This is not a victimless crime. Its theft and I know it is, so should you. What gives you the right to steal other peoples copy righted and intellectual property.

My justification is simple and pathetic "everyone else is doing it".

It is relevant, unless you're squirrelling money away or using it in under-the-counter purchases the government will get the same VAT and you'll be supporting another company with other employees.

Amirani · 21-01-2012 4:00pm

44leto wrote: »

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

Why bother posting about something you obviously don't have the slightest clue about? You should do a bit of research on the differences between stealing and sharing copyrighted material before you post in a thread in which they're clearly going to be discussed.

Your Apple analogy just highlights the ignorance here.

21-01-2012 4:02pm

44leto wrote: »

Amazon still pay VAT on that sale, but to the British government.
All I know is there use to be at least 6 video shops within a mile of me, now there is one, the same for record shops.

I'm aware that amazon pays VAT, the point I was making is that the Irish government is losing VAT on music sales not because of piracy but rather due to the changing manner through which people get their music. iTunes, amazon, play, etc all offer digital downloads and it's a thriving service used by many Irish people. Tape killed vinyl, CD killed tape and digital downloads will kill CD. It's the natural order of things, that record companies are do reluctant to embrace the technology is their failing.

As for video stores closing down, it's the same thing. Why pay 5 or 5 euro to rent a film when you can buy it in HMV or online for a fiver in a months time. Digital downloads of films and TV shows is booming, who wants to pay 20 euro to buy a new release DVD when for half that you purchase the digital version or rent it for 3-4 euro and not have to worry about heading out and returning it the next day.

Do you think that legal streaming services should be cracked down on to save video stores and ensure higher VAT is collected? I'm about to watch Gnomeo and Juliet with my girlfriend, to rent it on DVD would be 4 euro and to buy it 10 euro at least but thanks to Netflix I can watch it and thousands others for 7 euro a month. Any wonder traditional avenues of acquiring content are dieing

squod · 21-01-2012 4:13pm

Solair wrote: »

Ireland should absolutely not do anything that could be seen to be remotely anti-internet or damaging to the free-flow of information online.

We are a small country and we should be trying to encourage IT companies to base here not being innovators in internet crack downs!

If you impose draconian laws you could endanger all sorts of future investments in Ireland from major IT companies. Any 'cloud' based service could potentially have material on it that might possibly break insanely tight copyright laws.

How much money does Ireland Inc. make from CD sales?? I would doubt it makes very much.

Vs. how much money do we make from inward investment from Google (YouTube), Facebook, Twitter, and umpteen other companies all of whom operate in the zone of free-flow of information.

We will scare off "cloud computing" investors, scare off companies from putting major networking infrastructure here etc etc etc.

The Government would want to tread very carefully and not just cave in to media company lobbyists.

Can I share this content and send it off in an angry letter to the minister for EMI? You've put it way better than I could.

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 4:19pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

Its about Tax revenue as far as he is concerned, I would imagine. I am sure he is justifying this by saying that he needs to protect private corporations operating in Ireland and also protect the income that the government should be receiving. But the end result is that we get the shaft

44leto · 21-01-2012 4:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware that amazon pays VAT, the point I was making is that the Irish government is losing VAT on music sales not because of piracy but rather due to the changing manner through which people get their music. iTunes, amazon, play, etc all offer digital downloads and it's a thriving service used by many Irish people. Tape killed vinyl, CD killed tape and digital downloads will kill CD. It's the natural order of things, that record companies are do reluctant to embrace the technology is their failing.

As for video stores closing down, it's the same thing. Why pay 5 or 5 euro to rent a film when you can buy it in HMV or online for a fiver in a months time. Digital downloads of films and TV shows is booming, who wants to pay 20 euro to buy a new release DVD when for half that you purchase the digital version or rent it for 3-4 euro and not have to worry about heading out and returning it the next day.

Do you think that legal streaming services should be cracked down on to save video stores and ensure higher VAT is collected? I'm about to watch Gnomeo and Juliet with my girlfriend, to rent it on DVD would be 4 euro and to buy it 10 euro at least but thanks to Netflix I can watch it and thousands others for 7 euro a month. Any wonder traditional avenues of acquiring content are dieing

Why indeed why pay them anything when their competition is free. I have also downloaded my first book, free, I am a big book buyer and i know file sharing yada yada. So yes the market for media is changing but that still is a revenue to someone somewhere. Piracy is getting that content for free.

As for an earlier poster about not paying the VAT and that money goes on VAT someplace else.

I am self employed so if I don't pay my taxes could I say to the taxman, its OK that money I didn't pay went to taxes somewhere else. An interesting defense to say the least.

As I type this Download complete, "In Time" a sci fi thing it might be good.

21-01-2012 4:25pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

Its about Tax revenue as far as he is concerned, I would imagine. I am sure he is justifying this by saying that he needs to protect private corporations operating in Ireland and also protect the income that the government should be receiving. But the end result is that we get the shaft

If it really was about protecting income streams then he should be leaning on the record companies to set up a digital download service. What he's doing is bending over backward to try and protect an antiquated distribution system. It's just another example of big business dictating to the government and will in the long term only damage the country further.

No major Internet/technology company will set up in a country where a tiny group of business can have websites taken down at will. What's to stop EMI having a website/blog with a negative review of one of their acts taken because a picture of the artist/album cover is above the review.

Possible Irish SOPA Law? :/

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