Girl allegedly raped on Brazilian Big Brother

Fear Uladh · 18-01-2012 01:33AM

Dudess wrote: »

If a chicken raped them?

Kentucky fried chica.

Millicent · 18-01-2012 01:33AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.

Are you seriously suggesting that men cannot help themselves? Thankfully, most of the men I know can still "control" themselves, even when drink- or testosterone-fuelled.

languagenerd · 18-01-2012 01:35AM

Pissmire wrote: »

What a statement.

What percentage would you like? Sometimes there are false allegations made. Presumably the 99% walk free because of lack of proof, what more do you need to not be sent to jail?

Sometimes, just sometimes, there are things that can't be described. That's why the word "ineffable" exists.

I know that false allegations are made - and I think that those are terrible, because it only takes one lie to ruin someone's life too, there'll always be people who say "Oh, they definitely did it" even if they're proved innocent - but you can't seriously believe that 99% of people accused of rape are wrongly accused, can you?

I would at least hope for 10-15%. Even though that evidently is gonna sound crazy to you.

My_left_leg · 18-01-2012 01:36AM

Millicent wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that men cannot help themselves? Thankfully, most of the men I know can still "control" themselves, even when drink- or testosterone-fuelled.

if all men could control themselves, then we would not be having this discussion.:rolleyes:

Sardonicat · 18-01-2012 01:37AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

:pac:

Better than blaming the victim, I suppose.

But tell me, what's the fab Jodie ever done to you?

Dyr · 18-01-2012 01:37AM

bfocusd wrote: »

Sorry not very clear,.if they had woken up after being raped, it happens to men too, just not as prevalent, would they accept responsibility or be a victim is what I'm getting at, I know the topic is based around a woman and a man but men are victims of rape too.

Your question is based on such fuzzy logic that it hurts, it does'nt make the rapist any less guilty for committing a crime. It does however mean that it was your own actions that made you a victim. The rapist had the motive but you handed them the means and opportunity on a plate.

Socialist_Pig · 18-01-2012 01:38AM

languagenerd wrote: »

Jesus, and people wonder why more victims don't report it. I probably should get out of this thread, it's making me far too angry!

or pehaps look at the statistics another way 93 % of alleged rapes didnt warrant action by gardai and those that did go to court only a small % had enough evidence to gain a conviction.

just playing devils advocate btw.

KittyeeTrix · 18-01-2012 01:38AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

if all men could control themselves, then we would not be having this discussion.:rolleyes:

That's why the poster said "most" and not "all":rolleyes:

Liam Byrne · 18-01-2012 01:38AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.

Please be careful with what you are saying; I could fall into the above description some nights and I would NEVER rape someone.....I have actually turned down sex where I reckoned a girl was too drunk to make a reasoned call on it.

And no, I'm not looking for a medal for that - I'm just saying that many, many, many of us are incorrectly included in your far-too-casual phrasing.

Johro · 18-01-2012 01:38AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I said, I knew someone would twist it. :rolleyes:

Just so we're clear : a poster used the phrase "slightly tipsy", and I corrected that.

Do NOT put words in my mouth that I did not say, especially on a serious topic like this.

Right. You did not say this?: 'I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.'

Dudess · 18-01-2012 01:39AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.

There's no moralising. There is merely apportioning blame to where it should go.
And testosterone-fuelled men have control over their actions.

Dyr · 18-01-2012 01:39AM

Blue_Seas wrote: »

. But you have the right to do that. You have the right to drink until you pass out,

Not in a public place you don't

amacachi · 18-01-2012 01:39AM

languagenerd wrote: »

Sometimes, just sometimes, there are things that can't be described. That's why the word "ineffable" exists.

I know that false allegations are made - and I think that those are terrible, because it only takes one lie to ruin someone's life too, there'll always be people who say "Oh, they definitely did it" even if they're proved innocent - but you can't seriously believe that 99% of people accused of rape are wrongly accused, can you?

I would at least hope for 10-15%. Even though that evidently is gonna sound crazy to you.

Yeah but at least 84% (apparently) of rapists are never even accused.

Bullseye1 · 18-01-2012 01:39AM

I have not watched the video neither do I intend to, is it conclusive? If an alleged victim was so drunk that they cannot recall what exactly happened I cannot imagine any Prosecutor proceeding with any case.

Abi · 18-01-2012 01:40AM

I'd a quick scan of this thread, but does this bit here:

Echaniz, a male model, was seen entering the bed of Ms Amin before appearing to have sex with her under the covers as she seemingly remained unconscious. The incident was captured on the night vision cameras used in the series.

mean she had gone to bed herself and was sleeping when he decided to follow her and get in the bed, or did they both get in and she fall asleep with the drink on her?

By no means am I saying that this would make ANY difference whatsoever, I'm just trying to picture the turn of events.

Pissmire · 18-01-2012 01:40AM

fluorescence wrote: »

Who do you sympathise with? Since someone having their body defiled and violated doesn't cut it for you, I'm curious to know: who is it that merits your sympathy?

People starving, people being denied their homeland, 'victims of war for oil', animal cruelty etc. I'm not devoid of empathy, I just save it for what I feel deserves it. Just not this someone.

Millicent · 18-01-2012 01:40AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the spin put on that story - not by you but by the newspaper. Firstly it says that, "just seven out of every 100 suspected rape cases reported to gardai led to convictions." It doesn't say why though - many of these cases would never have had enough grounds to make a case, other people may have reported alleged rapes, then changed their minds etc etc. There are a whole myriad of reasons why only 7% of reported cases led to convictions, including the fact that some of the accused were found to be innocent of the charges.

It goes on to say that "countless more rapes were never reported at all." How do they know if they were never reported? What exactly does "countless" mean? And why is it OK to call an unreported, undocumented, alleged rape, a rape?

Rape is indeed a serious crime & should be treated as such, so I really don't see the point - or indeed the need - for putting any spin on it whatsoever.

I believe the figures for total rape cases came from the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. They would have the research based on calls, visits and scholastic studies and research, IIRC.

The hard part of rape cases are that they are notoriously so hard to prove. In another report I read, it was revealed that sexual history questioning was still allowed in around 70 per cent of cases. This questioning has been banned in many places, for very good reason. It's prejudicial and has no bearing on a case but still seeks to paint the victim as a "good time girl" who likely invited a sexual encounter.

An awful lot of rape cases are dropped at the first hurdle by Gardaí and are never forwarded for trial for a host of reasons, most understandable but unfortunate. Improper standards for rape examination are a big contributing factor. (Here's one such stupid and unbelievable example).

The RCNI has a lot of published research on the area that makes for illuminating reading. It is not unfair to say that the legal system we have is not dealing with the number of rape cases it should be.

Dudess · 18-01-2012 01:40AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

if all men could control themselves, then we would not be having this discussion.:rolleyes:

Oh they can. And to suggest otherwise does men a disservice.

Johro · 18-01-2012 01:40AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

if all men could control themselves, then we would not be having this discussion.:rolleyes:

Exactly. And that's how we know who's to blame.

Millicent · 18-01-2012 01:41AM

Pissmire wrote: »

People starving, people being denied their homeland, 'victims of war for oil', animal cruelty etc. I'm not devoid of empathy, I just save it for what I feel deserves it. Just not this someone.

So go start a thread on those things and leave those of us who do care to read and react in this thread.

dj jarvis · 18-01-2012 01:41AM

languagenerd wrote: »

That's... I don't think I even have words for that.... I mean, I knew things were bad, but that means 99% of people accused of rape walk free. ****ing insane.

well 99% of ACCUSED have to be PROVEN - and your assuming all allegations are true , not all rape allegations are true

far from it judging by a garda i knew who worked in a north Dublin garda station said they used to take bets on how many rape alligations would turn out to be total fabrications , dark i know, but he said they used to get so many historical drunk women wanting to get back at husbands / boy friends

my view is a rapist should get the full brunt of the law that can be allowed - no light sentences - if its proven in court - you deserve it - end of

but the flip side should also be applicable - false claims made should also carry a heavy sentence becasue the damage done could be enormous , but in reality these people not only are trying to destroy some ones lives but take away from real victims of these dreadful crimes

as for this case in brazil - have not seen the video and wont be watching
as for the crass comments on this thread all i can say is im saddened

krudler · 18-01-2012 01:42AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.

suggesting drunk women "ask for it" is as stupid as suggesting all drunk men are potential rapists.

I havent watched the video of this but if its a case where the guy just climbed into bed with her and had his way with a passed out girl, thats clearly rape. those stats about rape convictions can be about cases where its a grey area, two people go to bed together and one or both of them have no clear memory of giving consent, thats an allged rape where one persons version is possibly different to what actually happened.
in a lot of those cases consent lines become blurred if both people have had a lot to drink, yes the blame always lies with the rapist, but if a guy has drunken sex with a girl and she's too drunk to remember giving consent and he's too drunk to remember consent even being an issue then it becomes a bit more complicated.

Sardonicat · 18-01-2012 01:42AM

Pissmire wrote: »

People starving, people being denied their homeland, 'victims of war for oil', animal cruelty etc. I'm not devoid of empathy, I just save it for what I feel deserves it. Just not this someone.

Don't you like Jodie either?

Dudess · 18-01-2012 01:42AM

Pissmire wrote: »

People starving, people being denied their homeland, 'victims of war for oil', animal cruelty etc. I'm not devoid of empathy, I just save it for what I feel deserves it. Just not this someone.

It's a discussion about rape in general, spurred on by this incident.

Liam Byrne · 18-01-2012 01:42AM

Johro wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I said, I knew someone would twist it. :rolleyes:

Just so we're clear : a poster used the phrase "slightly tipsy", and I corrected that.

Do NOT put words in my mouth that I did not say, especially on a serious topic like this.

Right. You did not say this?: 'I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.'

Yeah - you see that first part ? The bit with the NEVER in capitals and the word "remotely" ? Could it be any clearer ?

Jaxxy · 18-01-2012 01:43AM

My_left_leg wrote: »

I blame Jodie Foster ........

to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.

I think it's you who needs to be educated.

Millicent · 18-01-2012 01:44AM

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

or pehaps look at the statistics another way 93 % of alleged rapes didnt warrant action by gardai and those that did go to court only a small % had enough evidence to gain a conviction.

just playing devils advocate btw.

There's more to it than that, though. There are myriad reasons cases don't get taken to trial, lack of evidence being just one.

starbelgrade · 18-01-2012 01:45AM

Millicent wrote: »

I believe the figures for total rape cases came from the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. They would have the research based on calls, visits and scholastic studies and research, IIRC.

The hard part of rape cases are that they are notoriously so hard to prove. In another report I read, it was revealed that sexual history questioning was still allowed in around 70 per cent of cases. This questioning has been banned in many places, for very good reason. It's prejudicial and has no bearing on a case but still seeks to paint the victim as a "good time girl" who likely invited a sexual encounter.

An awful lot of rape cases are dropped at the first hurdle by Gardaí and are never forwarded for trial for a host of reasons, most understandable but unfortunate. Improper standards for rape examination are a big contributing factor. (Here's one such stupid and unbelievable example).

The RCNI has a lot of published research on the area that makes for illuminating reading. It is not unfair to say that the legal system we have is not dealing with the number of rape cases it should be.

That post was a lot more informative & fact based than the article you linked. It's a pity you're too good to write for the Independent!

bfocusd · 18-01-2012 01:46AM

Bambi wrote: »

bfocusd wrote: »

Sorry not very clear,.if they had woken up after being raped, it happens to men too, just not as prevalent, would they accept responsibility or be a victim is what I'm getting at, I know the topic is based around a woman and a man but men are victims of rape too.

Your question is based on such fuzzy logic that it hurts, it does'nt make the rapist any less guilty for committing a crime. It does however mean that it was your own actions that made you a victim. The rapist had the motive but you handed them the means and opportunity on a plate.

Im confusing myself at this point, I commented on a post a few back, its what I'm trying to get at, forget the situation I mentioned, what I'm trying to say is, if a man (to the people who are saying the woman holds blame also) woke up after a night out and had been raped would they see themselves as victims or would they say, well I was drunk and should have known better.

If I'm still confusing I apologise im awake since 5am and going for some well needed sleep, before I collapse, hopefully that paragraph makes some sense to you.

Millicent · 18-01-2012 01:46AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

That post was a lot more informative & fact based than the article you linked. It's a pity you're too good to write for the Independent!

If the Independent is reading this, I am available for work! :pac: (Seriously, it's what my degree is in!)

Girl allegedly raped on Brazilian Big Brother

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