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Girl allegedly raped on Brazilian Big Brother

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Comments

  • #182
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    "Slightly tipsy" is seriously misleading, to be fair.

    I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.

    This being AH, I know a few people will probably twist that into excusing, but they are separate valid issues.

    Combine them and the rapist is still a sick **** and 100% in the wrong.

    But getting paralytic and comatose shouldn't be condoned either.

    In a country like Ireland, that level of alcohol consumption is almost encouraged by many. I agree that it's a dangerous past time, but to point to someone being comatose drunk in the midst of a topic like this takes the focus off the pertinent subject and draws attention to the victim rather than the assailant.


  • #183
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Just because around half a dozen people (half of whom are probably trolling) on an internet forum have that silly viewpoint doesn't mean it's a prevalent problem in society. It means there is a few idiots on the internet, stop sensationalising.

    Have you bothered to read the summaries of the reports I linked to? It's not sensationalising at all.


  • #184
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    So what if someone is too drunk to say no and gets raped? The rapist should not rape them, it's very simple.
    Yeah there are loads of times when we should take measures to protect ourselves but we are not responsible for the actions of others.


  • #185
    My_left_leg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭My_left_leg


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Just because around half a dozen people (half of whom are probably trolling) on an internet forum have that silly viewpoint doesn't mean it's a prevalent problem in society. It means there is a few idiots on the internet, stop sensationalising.

    WELL SAID.:D


  • #186
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭up for anything


    strobe wrote: »
    Huh, just watched it. The guy was talking to her the whole time and she starts making 'sex sounds' towards the end... She didn't seem unconscious, just not particularly energetic, nothing looked non-concensual to me...

    I just watched it too. She was totally out of it never mind 'just not particularly energetic'. Most of the movement in the bed was him trying to get a better grip on her. I don't know how the noises she made sounded like 'sex sounds' to you. To me she sounded distressed and a little tearful like she knew something wrong was happening to her. :(


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  • #187
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Dudess wrote: »
    So what if someone is too drunk to say no and gets raped? The rapist should not rape them, it's very simple.
    Yeah there are loads of times when we should take measures to protect ourselves but we are not responsible for the actions of others.

    I'm betting some of the people who are saying she needs to take some responsibility for being drunk would be horrified if you said she invited a rape for being skimpily dressed.


  • #188
    languagenerd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,201 ✭✭✭languagenerd


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Just because around half a dozen people (half of whom are probably trolling) on an internet forum have that silly viewpoint doesn't mean it's a prevalent problem in society. It means there is a few idiots on the internet, stop sensationalising.

    Did you not see the links to the survey a few pages back? One of the findings (reported by the Examiner, RTE and Amnesty) was that 41% of Irish people think that a victim who was drunk at the time is at least partly, if not fully, responsible. That's over 4 in 10 people, or around 1,640,000 people out of 4million . Not prevalent?
    amacachi wrote: »
    When a crime is most often committed in private and is one person's word against another I don't see how one could hope to have a high conviction rape.

    I know, but I honestly expected it to be higher than 1%. Maybe I live in a Utopian dream-world, but seriously.


  • #189
    bfocusd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭bfocusd


    For the people (men in particular) who are saying it's on the woman to be able yo say no anchor drink so much, I'd like your honest opinion on this.

    Your out with your mates and having a great night, drinks are flowing, you are now way past merry drunk and you head to a house close by to crash, pass out in the spare room, next morning you wake and see a lad across from you, both naked and you don't remember even leaving the pub.

    Who is to blame in that situation?

    Honest opinions please.


  • #190
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Dudess wrote: »
    Yeah there are loads of times when we should take measures to protect ourselves but we are not responsible for the actions of others.

    That's all most people are saying when they're accused of victim blaming. In this case (if it's as it's being presented) I don't think anyone in that situation would ever consider someone's gonna **** them in their sleep. I mean anyone rational person would assume that being in a house full of cameras and people observing would be a fairly safe to get drunk and pass out asleep in.


  • #191
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Dudess wrote: »
    So what if someone is too drunk to say no and gets raped? The rapist should not rape them, it's very simple.
    Yeah there are loads of times when we should take measures to protect ourselves but we are not responsible for the actions of others.

    We are however responsible for our own actions, like passing out pished drunk.

    Although you'd imagine that you'd be fairly safe on live tv


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  • #192
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Millicent wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    "Slightly tipsy" is seriously misleading, to be fair.

    I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.

    This being AH, I know a few people will probably twist that into excusing, but they are separate valid issues.

    Combine them and the rapist is still a sick **** and 100% in the wrong.

    But getting paralytic and comatose shouldn't be condoned either.

    In a country like Ireland, that level of alcohol consumption is almost encouraged by many. I agree that it's a dangerous past time, but to point to someone being comatose drunk in the midst of a topic like this takes the focus off the pertinent subject and draws attention to the victim rather than the assailant.

    Not at all. As I said they are separate issues. And I clearly stated that anyone "taking advantage" of that is a sick ****.

    BTW - there's a MUCH different take on the "allegation" in The Guardian :
    But speaking on the programme on Sunday, Amin claimed she could not remember the incident. "We kissed, I remember one kiss, he said there were two. We touched each other and really this is all I remember," she said.

    "Sex?" she added. "No. Only if he was a real scumbag and did it while I was sleeping."

    http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/17/big-brother-brazil-alleged-rape?cat=world&type=article

    The above would seem to imply that it's a storm in a teacup over a throwaway remark, and if so it's a PR stunt that is EXTREMELY offensive to anyone who has been a victim of this most horrendous type of assault.


  • #193
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    languagenerd wrote: »
    I know, but I honestly expected it to be higher than 1%. Maybe I leave in a Utopian dream-world, but seriously.

    7%, the 1% is a pointless statistic, there's not a lot that can be done about cases that go unreported.


  • #194
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    bfocusd wrote: »
    For the people (men in particular) who are saying it's on the woman to be able yo say no anchor drink so much, I'd like your honest opinion on this.

    Your out with your mates and having a great night, drinks are flowing, you are now way past merry drunk and you head to a house close by to crash, pass out in the spare room, next morning you wake and see a lad across from you, both naked and you don't remember even leaving the pub.

    Who is to blame in that situation?

    Honest opinions please.

    What situation? Someone sleeping the same bed that you were passed out in? :confused:


  • #195
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    up for anything wrote: »
    I just watched it too. She was totally out of it never mind 'just not particularly energetic'. Most of the movement in the bed was him trying to get a better grip on her. I don't know how the noises she made sounded like 'sex sounds' to you. To me she sounded distressed and a little tearful like she knew something wrong was happening to her. :(

    You might be right UFA, unfortunately. I was just giving my impression of how it appeared to me.


  • #196
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    amacachi wrote: »
    7%, the 1% is a pointless statistic, there's not a lot that can be done about cases that go unreported.


    It's not a pointless statistic though. If that many cases are going unreported, that's problematic for its own reasons.


  • #197
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    bfocusd wrote: »
    For the people (men in particular) who are saying it's on the woman to be able yo say no anchor drink so much, I'd like your honest opinion on this.

    Your out with your mates and having a great night, drinks are flowing, you are now way past merry drunk and you head to a house close by to crash, pass out in the spare room, next morning you wake and see a lad across from you, both naked and you don't remember even leaving the pub.

    Who is to blame in that situation?

    Honest opinions please.

    Wouldn't pass out from drink.

    But - hypothetically - the rapist, quite obviously.


  • #198
    staker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,677 ✭✭✭staker


    bfocusd wrote: »
    For the people (men in particular) who are saying it's on the woman to be able yo say no anchor drink so much, I'd like your honest opinion on this.

    Your out with your mates and having a great night, drinks are flowing, you are now way past merry drunk and you head to a house close by to crash, pass out in the spare room, next morning you wake and see a lad across from you, both naked and you don't remember even leaving the pub.
    There's brown stuff all over the sheets and an empty Mars Bar wrapper on the ground beside the bed.
    Who is to blame in that situation?

    Honest opinions please.

    I'd say some connivin thief has robbed me mars bar.


  • #199
    Johro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    "Slightly tipsy" is seriously misleading, to be fair.

    I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.

    This being AH, I know a few people will probably twist that into excusing, but they are separate valid issues.

    Combine them and the rapist is still a sick **** and 100% in the wrong.

    But getting paralytic and comatose shouldn't be condoned either.
    Total bollocks. The guy got into bed and had sex with a woman who was clearly out of it, it's not like she invited him into her bed, she wasn't even aware of what was going on. The reason why she wasn't aware is not important in this. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.
    Saying she was partly responsible for being blind drunk is just outrageously stupid, being provided with an opportunity doesn't require you to take it.


  • #200
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Dudess wrote: »
    So what if someone is too drunk to say no and gets raped? The rapist should not rape them, it's very simple.
    Yeah there are loads of times when we should take measures to protect ourselves but we are not responsible for the actions of others.

    As my dad always says (not about rape): it doesn't matter how great a driver you are. It only takes one thoughtless idiot to ruin your life.


  • #201
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    amacachi wrote: »
    When a crime is most often committed in private and is one person's word against another I don't see how one could hope to have a high conviction rape.

    Worst. Typo. Ever.


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  • #202
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    To the men on here, if you woke up after being drunk to find a man had had sex with you while you had passed out, how would you feel? I think alot of men can't comprehend the horror of the situation, as it is not in their realm of understanding i.e something that is not likely to happen to them.


  • #203
    bfocusd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭bfocusd


    Bambi wrote: »
    bfocusd wrote: »
    For the people (men in particular) who are saying it's on the woman to be able yo say no anchor drink so much, I'd like your honest opinion on this.

    Your out with your mates and having a great night, drinks are flowing, you are now way past merry drunk and you head to a house close by to crash, pass out in the spare room, next morning you wake and see a lad across from you, both naked and you don't remember even leaving the pub.

    Who is to blame in that situation?

    Honest opinions please.

    What situation? Someone sleeping the same bed that you were passed out in? :confused:


    Sorry not very clear,.if they had woken up after being raped, it happens to men too, just not as prevalent, would they accept responsibility or be a victim is what I'm getting at, I know the topic is based around a woman and a man but men are victims of rape too.


  • #204
    Pissmire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Pissmire


    languagenerd wrote: »
    That's... I don't think I even have words for that.... I mean, I knew things were bad, but that means 99% of people accused of rape walk free. ****ing insane.

    What a statement.

    What percentage would you like? Sometimes there are false allegations made. Presumably the 99% walk free because of lack of proof, what more do you need to not be sent to jail?


  • #205
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Johro wrote: »
    Total bollocks. The guy got into bed and had sex with a woman who was clearly out of it, it's not like she invited him into her bed, she wasn't even aware of what was going on.

    Really? She remembers kissing him and says she doesn't think they had sex. Lot of spin being put on all this by at least one side.


  • #206
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Johro wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    "Slightly tipsy" is seriously misleading, to be fair.

    I would NEVER even remotely excuse rape, but there is an onus on someone to have enough cop-on and self-respect not to get paralytic drunk and comatose.

    This being AH, I know a few people will probably twist that into excusing, but they are separate valid issues.

    Combine them and the rapist is still a sick **** and 100% in the wrong.

    But getting paralytic and comatose shouldn't be condoned either.
    Total bollocks. The guy got into bed and had sex with a woman who was clearly out of it, it's not like she invited him into her bed, she wasn't even aware of what was going on. The reason why she wasn't aware is not important in this. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.
    Saying she was partly responsible for being blind drunk is just outrageously stupid, being provided with an opportunity doesn't require you to take it.

    As I said, I knew someone would twist it. :rolleyes:

    Just so we're clear : a poster used the phrase "slightly tipsy", and I corrected that.

    Do NOT put words in my mouth that I did not say, especially on a serious topic like this.


  • #207
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Worst. Typo. Ever.

    Goddamnit.


  • #208
    Blue_Seas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Blue_Seas


    What people don't seem to be understanding is that rape is always at the fault at the rapist. No exceptions.

    Yes, it's a silly thing to get absolutely hammered. It's not a smart or healthy thing to do. But you have the right to do that. You have the right to drink until you pass out, and if someone rapes you it is still rape.

    I agree with what people are saying in that you have to be careful, but when you're not careful you are not to blame for what someone else does to you. In a lot of cases, they'd do it even if you weren't drunk. Or alone. Or out late at night. The rape is not your fault, the fault is still of the rapist using these external factors to unwillingly assault you.


  • #209
    My_left_leg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭My_left_leg


    I blame Jodie Foster ........

    to be scantily clad is not a crime. neither is being drunk, usually(although it could be in certain circumstances).

    to be both is stupid, especially if surrounded by testosterone &/or drink fueled men.
    girls need to know this, and to advise/educate them might be far more beneficial than moralizing about who to blame.


  • #210
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Millicent wrote: »
    For those who are interested, from a study in 2009, only 7 per cent of rapes reported to the Gardaí resulted in a conviction. The 1 per cent figure comes from total estimated rapes in the country, not just those that are reported.

    I'm not sure I agree with the spin put on that story - not by you but by the newspaper. Firstly it says that, "just seven out of every 100 suspected rape cases reported to gardai led to convictions." It doesn't say why though - many of these cases would never have had enough grounds to make a case, other people may have reported alleged rapes, then changed their minds etc etc. There are a whole myriad of reasons why only 7% of reported cases led to convictions, including the fact that some of the accused were found to be innocent of the charges.

    It goes on to say that "countless more rapes were never reported at all." How do they know if they were never reported? What exactly does "countless" mean? And why is it OK to call an unreported, undocumented, alleged rape, a rape?

    Rape is indeed a serious crime & should be treated as such, so I really don't see the point - or indeed the need - for putting any spin on it whatsoever.


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  • #211
    bfocusd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭bfocusd


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    To the men on here, if you woke up after being drunk to find a man had had sex with you while you had passed out, how would you feel? I think alot of men can't comprehend the horror of the situation, as it is not in their realm of understanding i.e something that is not likely to happen to them.

    That's what I was trying to say, god I hate predictive text!


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