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Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

1…468910

Comments

  • #152
    getsomenuts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭getsomenuts


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Perhaps not. However, there's no harm in making sure you know how this forum is run.



    It doesn't because it's irrelevant.

    I have an opinion on Ireland's neutral stance in WWII. I firmly believe the country should have thrown in its lot with the Allies against the Axis powers, and disagree with that governments decision not to. However, I fully support that government's authority to make that decision, and to carry it out. That is the fundamental essence of the sovereign state. To carry out its functions, it is dependant on its executive branch, which includes the Army, to be capable of carrying out its policies. That means that as long as the policies are legal, the individuals who make up that executive branch must be able to be relied upon, by force of law if necessary.

    When one joins the military, there are no caveats for personal morals or the opinion that something better should be done. When you raise your hand, you are placing yourself at the disposal of the government, to carry out the decisions of that government, and, by the way, subject yourself to military law. The term 'betray' is not misplaced, it is a betrayal of your word, and of the expectation of the taxpayer who the government represents.



    This does not mean that the choice must be without consequence. The people in question made the choice toput themselves at the disposal of the Irish government, inherent in this is the possibility that the government may make a choice which you (often a voter) disagree with. That's the first consequence. The second consequence is the punitive cost of, basically, breaking your contract.



    Assuming a long-term AWOL:

    If not from turning themselves in, dishonorable discharge, a fine proportional to your training costs and time unserved, loss of benefits and in time of conflict, prison until the cessation of hostilities, lifetime bar from public employment.

    If in time of conflict and voluntarily surrendered, discharge would be other than honorable, the fine still paid, loss of benefits. Bar from certain public employment.

    If not in time of conflict, and voluntarily surrendered, Other than honorable and a smaller fine. Bar from uniformed employment. (Military, police, fire etc)

    NTM

    I find the bloody minded Irish mindset a weird and enraging one at times, well most of the time. Especially when Britain is involved in any discussion. I am British and am disgusted and repulsed with some of the comments put up in the forum, should ex ww2 soldiers be pardoned, and quite frankly shocked that people think it is OK to ill treat a whole section of their own community for decades do to vindictively and without mercy put out the only Irishmen in the Country with a real set of hairy balls with the guts to stand up and **** the ridiculous paddyism that infects the rational thought processes of so many of the indigenous. I find it hilarious that I now find myself in virtual paddy prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahahhaha because the moderator dictators that are running this site have god complexes, and haven't got a proper set of hairy dangling balls like their BA serving counterparts. You can't handle the truth! and will find find a reasonable justification for the way you have treated your own on this one. What was any self respecting Irishman with any sense and a real set supposed to do, sit it out in neutral Ireland playing with themselves and waiting for the fight to come to them? no, the real men released the only way to put it to the fascists was to join a proper army the BA, lets face it the Irish was crap, OK there wre a few thousand riffle etc but the fight had to be taken to the nazis, how was Ireland going to do that even if un neutral. So whilst the ones who stayed behind bummed each other and wrote poetry with the priests, and stood the high moral ground and went around patting each other on the back for being good paddies. The proper fighting men did what had to be done. Then on there return they faced the same fascist bull**** they had joined up to fight against. Shame on you and your bloody minded paddyism.

    I will join the forums under different names and email address's, its not rocket science numb-nuts, you will rue the day you put an Englishman in virtual paddy prison you ****s.


  • #153
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Other - Please explain.
    getsomenuts wrote: »
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Perhaps not. However, there's no harm in making sure you know how this forum is run.



    It doesn't because it's irrelevant.

    I have an opinion on Ireland's neutral stance in WWII. I firmly believe the country should have thrown in its lot with the Allies against the Axis powers, and disagree with that governments decision not to. However, I fully support that government's authority to make that decision, and to carry it out. That is the fundamental essence of the sovereign state. To carry out its functions, it is dependant on its executive branch, which includes the Army, to be capable of carrying out its policies. That means that as long as the policies are legal, the individuals who make up that executive branch must be able to be relied upon, by force of law if necessary.

    When one joins the military, there are no caveats for personal morals or the opinion that something better should be done. When you raise your hand, you are placing yourself at the disposal of the government, to carry out the decisions of that government, and, by the way, subject yourself to military law. The term 'betray' is not misplaced, it is a betrayal of your word, and of the expectation of the taxpayer who the government represents.



    This does not mean that the choice must be without consequence. The people in question made the choice toput themselves at the disposal of the Irish government, inherent in this is the possibility that the government may make a choice which you (often a voter) disagree with. That's the first consequence. The second consequence is the punitive cost of, basically, breaking your contract.



    Assuming a long-term AWOL:

    If not from turning themselves in, dishonorable discharge, a fine proportional to your training costs and time unserved, loss of benefits and in time of conflict, prison until the cessation of hostilities, lifetime bar from public employment.

    If in time of conflict and voluntarily surrendered, discharge would be other than honorable, the fine still paid, loss of benefits. Bar from certain public employment.

    If not in time of conflict, and voluntarily surrendered, Other than honorable and a smaller fine. Bar from uniformed employment. (Military, police, fire etc)

    NTM

    I find the bloody minded Irish mindset a weird and enraging one at times, well most of the time. Especially when Britain is involved in any discussion. I am British and am disgusted and repulsed with some of the comments put up in the forum, should ex ww2 soldiers be pardoned, and quite frankly shocked that people think it is OK to ill treat a whole section of their own community for decades do to vindictively and without mercy put out the only Irishmen in the Country with a real set of hairy balls with the guts to stand up and **** the ridiculous paddyism that infects the rational thought processes of so many of the indigenous. I find it hilarious that I now find myself in virtual paddy prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahahhaha because the moderator dictators that are running this site have god complexes, and haven't got a proper set of hairy dangling balls like their BA serving counterparts. You can't handle the truth! and will find find a reasonable justification for the way you have treated your own on this one. What was any self respecting Irishman with any sense and a real set supposed to do, sit it out in neutral Ireland playing with themselves and waiting for the fight to come to them? no, the real men released the only way to put it to the fascists was to join a proper army the BA, lets face it the Irish was crap, OK there wre a few thousand riffle etc but the fight had to be taken to the nazis, how was Ireland going to do that even if un neutral. So whilst the ones who stayed behind bummed each other and wrote poetry with the priests, and stood the high moral ground and went around patting each other on the back for being good paddies. The proper fighting men did what had to be done. Then on there return they faced the same fascist bull**** they had joined up to fight against. Shame on you and your bloody minded paddyism.

    I will join the forums under different names and email address's, its not rocket science numb-nuts, you will rue the day you put an Englishman in virtual paddy prison you ****s.

    If you are curious, I am posting this from Fort Irwin, California, where I am in the middle of a Bradley gunnery cycle as a US Army officer. Paddyism has little to do with my opinion.

    The ban you are expecting will be along presently. The downside to the Mojave desert is that my laptop has a limited ability to access the Internet and I can't seem to conduct moderator actions on my mobile.

    NTM


  • #154
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Other - Please explain.
    getz wrote: »
    10s of thousands of american soldiers deserted and joined the canadian army,at the start of WW11 and did not face discrimination after it,

    I'm not sure most of those were deserters. And even non deserters who joined the Canadian Army could face minor repercussions such as loss of citizenship. At the US government's request, the Canadians created a special axillary reserve, enlistment into which did not require an oath of allegiance, and it was into this that American volunteers were enlisted.

    Further, the US military made it easy for servicemen to legally be discharged to go fight in the service of allies, in the extreme the Flying Tigers, for example, was a unit made up exclusively of such men.

    NTM


  • #155
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,411 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    getsomenuts wrote: »
    I find the bloody minded Irish mindset a weird and enraging one at times, well most of the time. Especially when Britain is involved in any discussion. I am British and am disgusted and repulsed with some of the comments put up in the forum, should ex ww2 soldiers be pardoned, and quite frankly shocked that people think it is OK to ill treat a whole section of their own community for decades do to vindictively and without mercy put out the only Irishmen in the Country with a real set of hairy balls with the guts to stand up and **** the ridiculous paddyism that infects the rational thought processes of so many of the indigenous. I find it hilarious that I now find myself in virtual paddy prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahahhaha because the moderator dictators that are running this site have god complexes, and haven't got a proper set of hairy dangling balls like their BA serving counterparts. You can't handle the truth! and will find find a reasonable justification for the way you have treated your own on this one. What was any self respecting Irishman with any sense and a real set supposed to do, sit it out in neutral Ireland playing with themselves and waiting for the fight to come to them? no, the real men released the only way to put it to the fascists was to join a proper army the BA, lets face it the Irish was crap, OK there wre a few thousand riffle etc but the fight had to be taken to the nazis, how was Ireland going to do that even if un neutral. So whilst the ones who stayed behind bummed each other and wrote poetry with the priests, and stood the high moral ground and went around patting each other on the back for being good paddies. The proper fighting men did what had to be done. Then on there return they faced the same fascist bull**** they had joined up to fight against. Shame on you and your bloody minded paddyism.

    I will join the forums under different names and email address's, its not rocket science numb-nuts, you will rue the day you put an Englishman in virtual paddy prison you ****s.

    Did you really mean to post that last bit seeing as nobody mentioned a ban here? The fact that it's a copy of your disemvowelled post in Prison kind of gives it away a bit too. Anyway, you can join your fellow countryman/alter ego in the virtual Paddy prison. Just remember not to drop the soap in the showers, ok?


  • #156
    Saapodfd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Saapodfd


    Other - Please explain.
    Defence Forces veterans are now starting a campaign to stop any "pardoning" of deserters.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Soldiers-against-any-pardoning-of-Defence-Forces-deserters/326323607401967


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  • #157
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    Other - Please explain.
    Saapodfd wrote: »
    Defence Forces veterans are now starting a campaign to stop any "pardoning" of deserters.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Soldiers-against-any-pardoning-of-Defence-Forces-deserters/326323607401967

    Thanks for that, cheers.


  • #158
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    From the site :

    "But now a group with the support from foreign media are trying to force the Irish Government to "pardon" those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Emergency and to shame those who volunteered to join the Irish Defence Forces to defend our nation."

    ...........With talk of "foreign media" etc my bet is its been started by a barstool republican, still 4 people like it.


  • #159
    Saapodfd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Saapodfd


    Other - Please explain.
    cruasder777 wrote: »
    From the site :

    "But now a group with the support from foreign media are trying to force the Irish Government to "pardon" those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Emergency and to shame those who volunteered to join the Irish Defence Forces to defend our nation."

    ...........With talk of "foreign media" etc my bet is its been started by a barstool republican, still 4 people like it.

    We are former Soldiers and like most of our comrades, both retired and serving are sickened by these people who are trying to force the Government to "pardon" those who deserted the Defence Forces.

    We have no connection to any political party, ONE, UN Vets, etc but we would welcome any support.

    The Facebook page was started on Sunday morning and is not an online partition.
    We are trying to get the message out that these deserters have no support from either retired or serving Soldiers.


  • #160
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Other - Please explain.
    Saapodfd wrote: »
    cruasder777 wrote: »
    From the site :

    "But now a group with the support from foreign media are trying to force the Irish Government to "pardon" those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Emergency and to shame those who volunteered to join the Irish Defence Forces to defend our nation."

    ...........With talk of "foreign media" etc my bet is its been started by a barstool republican, still 4 people like it.

    We are former Soldiers and like most of our comrades, both retired and serving are sickened by these people who are trying to force the Government to "pardon" those who deserted the Defence Forces.

    We have no connection to any political party, ONE, UN Vets, etc but we would welcome any support.

    The Facebook page was started on Sunday morning and is not an online partition.
    We are trying to get the message out that these deserters have no support from either retired or serving Soldiers.

    Suggestion then. Keep as much as possible away from the emotives. "foreign media" is irrelevant. There is a movement to pardon these men. This page is to counter that movement. End of.

    NTM


  • #161
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Other - Please explain.
    I have been posting on H & H on this and was a lot more relaxed about the campaign until I read the campaign website

    http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/

    What put me off was it includes the type of anti-Irish rhetoric I came across in the UK when I worked there back in the day.

    The site itself contains a lot of references to Ireland being pro-Third Reich/Nazi's which is far from the truth. An example being the Donegal Corridor open to British planes and the repatriation of British Airmen. ( The occupation of France had made the Treaty Ports requirement obsolete ).

    Ireland, the country, collaborated with Britain on matters of security , intelligence and economically throughout the war. History Ireland has a great article here

    http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume6/issue1/features/?id=181

    Viscount Cranborne acknowledged this in Cabinet papers
    Viscount Cranborne, the British Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, wrote a letter to the British War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during 1939-1945:[44]
    “
    1. They agreed to our use of Lough Foyle for naval and air purposes. The ownership of the Lough is disputed, but the Southern Irish authorities are tacitly not pressing their claim in present conditions and are also ignoring any flying by our aircraft over the Donegal shore of the Lough, which is necessary in certain wind conditions to enable flying boats to take off the Lough.
    2. They have agreed to use by our aircraft based on Lough Erne of a corridor over Southern Irish territory and territorial waters for the purpose of flying out to the Atlantic.
    3. They have arranged for the immediate transmission to the United Kingdom Representative’s Office in Dublin of reports of submarine activity received from their coast watching service.
    4. They arranged for the broadening of reports by their Air observation Corps of aircraft sighted over or approaching Southern Irish territory. (This does not include our aircraft using the corridor referred to in (b) above.)
    5. They arranged for the extinction of trade and business lighting in coastal towns where such lighting was alleged to afford a useful landmark for German aircraft.
    6. They have continued to supply us with meteorological reports.
    7. They have agreed to the use by our ships and aircraft of two wireless direction-finding stations at Malin Head.
    8. They have supplied particulars of German crashed aircraft and personnel crashed or washed ashore or arrested on land.
    9. They arranged for staff talks on the question of co-operation against a possible German invasion of Southern Ireland, and close contact has since been maintained between the respective military authorities.
    10. They continue to intern all German fighting personnel reaching Southern Ireland. On the other hand, though after protracted negotiations, Allied service personnel are now allowed to depart freely and full assistance is given in recovering damaged aircraft.
    11. Recently, in connection with the establishment of prisoner of war camps in Northern Ireland, they have agreed to return or at least intern any German prisoners who may escape from Northern Ireland across the border to Southern Ireland.
    12. They have throughout offered no objection to the departure from Southern Ireland of persons wishing to serve in the United Kingdom Forces nor to the journey on leave of such persons to and from Southern Ireland (in plain clothes).
    13. They have continued to exchange information with our security authorities regarding all aliens (including Germans) in Southern Ireland.
    14. They have (within the last few days) agreed to our establishing a Radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest form of submarine activity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II#The_Cranborne_report

    (Sorry about the Wiki link but it saves me typing it out)

    The Third Reich also conducted intimidation and reprisal air raids on Ireland especially for humanitarian assistance to Belfast following air raids.

    Another example is the internment of pro-nazi IRA elements in the Curragh and the execution of activists and leaders. This had army involvement and at that time the IRA was conducting a campaign in Britain and "inviting" German invasion. There was also the Christmas Raid.

    So the Irish army had a real role and not a "pretend" Dads Army role as seems to be suggested.

    The site also mentions "alleged" deserters when there is nothing alleged about it and neither was there anything imaginary about the threats to the state. The climate of the time included the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact & the "Peace for our time"settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem.

    Neither the Soviets or Americans entered the war till they were attacked and Switzerland, Spain & Portugal remained neutral.

    Ireland was the friendliest neutral in the history of neutrality.

    I am saddened by the tone of the campaign and god only knows what the organizers are thinking and it does seem to be alienating many people.


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  • #162
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I am saddened by the tone of the campaign and god only knows what the organizers are thinking and it does seem to be alienating many people.

    It's sad to think that an element of the Irish Mentality has not matured. 70 years or so on, if it were 20 years after the events maybe there was a point.


  • #163
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Other - Please explain.
    The Democratic Unionist Party have now unsurprisingly thrown their weight behind this campaign :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16680453
    Assembly motion supports pardon for Ireland's WWII deserters
    First Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland Eamon de Valera inspects a guard of honour at O'Connell Street in Dublin The then Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera, inspects his country's neutral army
    Continue reading the main story
    Related Stories

    Irish soldiers who hid their medals
    Pressure to pardon Irish deserters

    The NI assembly is to consider a motion later to support a pardon for soldiers from the Irish Republic who deserted to fight for Britain during World War II.

    Ireland was neutral during the conflict, but around 10% of its armed forces deserted to fight fascism.

    On their return, many were placed on an official blacklist, banning them from jobs, benefits or pensions.

    DUP MLA Peter Weir is supporting the motion and said it was time for a pardon.

    "I want to show the solidarity of the Northern Ireland Assembly to a very good campaign which has been put forward by people in the Irish Republic to try and get a pardon and indeed honour and recognition for those brave men and women who served the Irish Republic in the Second World War against facism," he said.

    "I don't see why the parties should not roll in behind this, this was very much an abuse of human rights.

    "These were people who were denied employment and welfare which in many cases were enforced with starvation orders where families went hungry as a result of their commitment to the British army.

    "I think this is an historic injustice which needs to be embraced."

    Around 5,000 soldiers were formally dismissed from the Irish army for serving with the British.

    Irish senator Mary Ann O'Brien met with Ireland's minister of justice, Alan Shatter, before Christmas with regard to the issue of a pardon and said he was actively working on the matter.

    She expects to hear from him again in March and voiced her support for the assembly motion.

    "We are lucky we are not Germany here, because we have to remember that these men deserted the Irish army to join the British army to fight for all of us, for our democracy and our future and for the freedom of Europe," she added.

    "They came back here to find no hope of employment, there was terrible poverty but they were literally blacklisted.

    "I can tell you something worse if they were unlucky enough to have been killed, their children would possibly have ended up in an orphanage as the poverty would have been such the widow would not have been allowed any allowance as she too was blacklisted.

    "The child was tarnished with special letters after his or her name when it went into the orphanage so the orphanage would know it was the child of a deserter, so it would get special treatment."

    This part in red (in particular) does not appear to be supported by any kind of evidence whatsoever, it is pure supposition to assume that an official categorisation was intended to identify individuals in order for them to recieve 'special treatment', let alone the underlying implication which is that they were categorised in order for them to recieve 'especially harsh treatment'.

    I think both the BBC and Mary Ann O'Brien should be called on to clarify these comments. There really ought to be an Irish official government complaint on this matter, in order to force the BBC & Mary Ann O'Brien to present some supporting evidence to this emotive and totally unchallenged allegation.


  • #164
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Other - Please explain.
    gbee wrote: »
    It's sad to think that an element of the Irish Mentality has not matured. 70 years or so on, if it were 20 years after the events maybe there was a point.

    They don't seem to be taking others sensitivities into account and the rhetoric is similar to the dail debates at the time that I linked to in H & H.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76657767&postcount=233

    In fact Irelands "collaborative" neutrality amused Churchill
    Winston Churchill enjoyed a good joke. According to Dennis Kelly, one of Churchill’s former literary assistants, the following was one of his boss’s favorite stories, one that ‘he used to adore telling’: ‘British bomber over Berlin, caught in the searchlights, flak coming up, one engine on fire, rear-gunner wounded, Irish pilot mutters, “Thank God Dev kept us out of this bloody war.”’i


    He did invite DeValera to No 10 in 1953 where DeV asserted that he would never have taken Ireland out of the Commonwealth, a huge compliment and statement of approval.

    So if these two could appreciate the realpolitick 60 years ago then others have a lot of catching up to do.

    EDIT -churchill centre link http://www.winstonchurchill.org/support/the-churchill-centre/publications/finest-hour-online/833--winston-churchill-a-eamon-de-valera-a-thirty-year-relationship


  • #165
    Turbine
    Site Banned Posts: 317 ✭✭Turbine


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    Am I only one who sees the irony in a Unionist MLA acknowledging the existence of the Irish republic before it was recognised by the UK (in 1949)?


  • #166
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Other - Please explain.
    Turbine wrote: »
    Am I only one who sees the irony in a Unionist MLA acknowledging the existence of the Irish republic before it was recognised by the UK (in 1949)?

    What's even more bizarre is that the senator at the heart of this story and these allegations (also at the heart of the bbc radio documentary where these 'singled out for especially cruel treatment' allegations appear to have began), was not even elected to the senate, being an appointment of the Taoiseach.

    This person has no particular qualification or elected authority whatsoever, this is simply a person spouting hyperbole and so far going unchallenged by the media in general.

    I will ask the question again - is there a shred of evidence to support Irish Senator Mary O'Brien's theory that the categorisation given to those children (of deserters) in state institutions was given in order that those children (of deserters) were to recieve particularly harsh treatment ?

    Is there a molecule of evidence to support this ?

    The bbc have no issue repeating this allegation multiple times, you would think at some point they would ask the question, or someone would ask the question. Another possibility would be that the journalists are aware of this and simply choose to continue to ignore it. That seems at least a possibility to me at this stage. The lopsided media coverage of this story in general is worrying in my view.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0528/1224297926221.html
    Now she is joined in the upper house by Mary Ann O’Brien, founder of Lily O’Brien’s chocolate company. Senator O’Brien, who is also a founder of the Jack & Jill Children’s Foundation, is one of the Taoiseach’s 11 nominees.


  • #167
    neilled
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭neilled


    Other - Please explain.
    Turbine wrote: »
    Am I only one who sees the irony in a Unionist MLA acknowledging the existence of the Irish republic before it was recognised by the UK (in 1949)?


    We have a joke up north that MLA actually stands for "Member of the Lunatic Asylum" which sums up quite a few of the people in it as far as I'm concerned.


  • #168
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Other - Please explain.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Winston Churchill enjoyed a good joke. According to Dennis Kelly, one of Churchill’s former literary assistants, the following was one of his boss’s favorite stories, one that ‘he used to adore telling’: ‘British bomber over Berlin, caught in the searchlights, flak coming up, one engine on fire, rear-gunner wounded, Irish pilot mutters, “Thank God Dev kept us out of this bloody war.”’

    That was a cartoon which was published in a newspaper, but the protagonists were two soldiers in taking cover on D-Day with the caption being "Sure, Seamus, you can say what you like about Dev, but at least he kept us out of this war."

    Not sure if the cartoon or the Churchill comment came first.

    NTM


  • #169
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Other - Please explain.
    Morlar wrote: »

    This person has no particular qualification or elected authority whatsoever, this is simply a person spouting hyperbole and so far going unchallenged by the media in general.

    I hope the hyperbole does not extend to Alan Shatter because of his heritage.

    The Irish Army did a very challenging job & which for some must have been counter intuitive which included the internment of former colleagues from the war of independence or members of their families.

    An example of an IRA activist is Brendan Behan who was leniently treated both in the UK where he served a term in borstal & in Ireland where he fired at a policeman and was sentenced to 14 years for a capital offense. He was treated leniently because of his uncle Peader Kearney lyricist of the the National Anthem.

    The Irish Army did make a huge difference .


  • #170
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    CDfm wrote: »
    The Irish Army did make a huge difference .

    And to avoid tarnishing it's image it should pardon and backdate the pardon to seven years after the offence and draw a line in the sand.

    Seven Years was the official punishment, it legally ends there. Any further persecution deserves compensation to surviving deserter members and their families.


  • #171
    therewillbe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 741 ✭✭✭therewillbe


    Other - Please explain.
    No.Shame the Death penalty was not in force here.


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  • #172
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    Seven Years was the official punishment, it legally ends there. Any further persecution deserves compensation to surviving deserter members and their families.

    What "further persecution" are you talking about?


  • #173
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Other - Please explain.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I hope the hyperbole does not extend to Alan Shatter because of his heritage.

    The Irish Army did a very challenging job & which for some must have been counter intuitive which included the internment of former colleagues from the war of independence or members of their families.

    An example of an IRA activist is Brendan Behan who was leniently treated both in the UK where he served a term in borstal & in Ireland where he fired at a policeman and was sentenced to 14 years for a capital offense. He was treated leniently because of his uncle Peader Kearney lyricist of the the National Anthem.

    The Irish Army did make a huge difference .

    Whatever about Alan Shatter's support for this campaign, I just can't get over how a senator of the Irish Republic (Mary O'Brien) is making an allegation that children of WW2 Irish Army deserters who joined the B.A. were subsequently singled out for especially harsh treatment whilst resident in industrial schools purely on the basis of their parentage.

    She's repeatedly made this claim across the media, radio programmes and BBC interviews included and not a single journalist (Irish or otherwise) appears to have challenged her to provide proof. It could be that the allegation fits in with certain pre-concieved, prejudicial notions about Ireland held by some elements in the British media ? Even if that's the case that's not an excuse applicable to Irish media.

    On the other hand it could just be that it is knowingly false but a politically expedient 'outrageous claim' designed to grab attention and manipulate emotions. That undoubtedly serves the purposes of this campaign.

    An allegation like that can't suddenly be accepted as historical fact and go unchallenged but that is what seems to be happening.


  • #174
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Other - Please explain.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    That was a cartoon which was published in a newspaper, but the protagonists were two soldiers in taking cover on D-Day with the caption being "Sure, Seamus, you can say what you like about Dev, but at least he kept us out of this war."

    Not sure if the cartoon or the Churchill comment came first.

    NTM

    Probably an Irish Press cartoon ;)

    It looks like they both appreciated the others position.

    As the writer Clair Willis put it "“If neutrality was dangerous, belligerence looked like suicide.”


  • #175
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    What "further persecution" are you talking about?

    This thread is an example IMO.

    TBH, this should not be coming up, it a trivial matter, we've elected murderers to office ~ but we've said all this already.

    Everybody played a part, it was desperate times, everybody is a hero. And it is history. Like it or not, it is history and we can't change that, it happened, and in this case a long time ago.

    I can see a film next year, the 5,000 Irish Army Deserters who saved the world as the British Army was decimated and so much is owed to so few ~

    Sollten wir alle feiern die Bemühungen aller Menschen, von allen Seiten.


  • #176
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    What "further persecution" are you talking about?
    gbee wrote: »
    This thread is an example IMO.

    OK, so let me get this straight. A campaign is started to have soldiers who deserted the Irish Army to join the British Army pardoned. Some people, including posters on this thread, disagree and that amounts to "further persecution" which justifies the pardon being granted?


  • #177
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    OK, so let me get this straight. A campaign is started to have soldiers who deserted the Irish Army to join the British Army pardoned. Some people, including posters on this thread, disagree and that amounts to "further persecution" which justifies the pardon being granted?

    Classic case of putting words in mouth. There is no 'SO' about it.

    Facts: Dev gave a seven year punishment to these men.


  • #178
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    gbee wrote: »
    Classic case of putting words in mouth. There is no 'SO' about it.

    I put no words in your mouth. I asked you what "further persecution" you meant and you began your reply with "This thread is an example IMO." The rest of your reply simply didn't address the question at all. Well, IMO, it's absurd to describe this thread as persecution of any kind.
    gbee wrote: »
    Facts: Dev gave a seven year punishment to these men.

    It was a relatively lenient administrative sanction compared to the criminal prosecution and imprisonment they could have got. It was done and dusted by 1952 - sixty years ago. So, once again, what "further persecution" are you talking about - apart from this thread?


  • #179
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I put no words in your mouth. I asked you what "further persecution" you meant and you began your reply with "This thread is an example IMO." Well, IMO, it's absurd to describe this thread as persecution of any kind.



    It was a relatively lenient administrative sanction compared to the criminal prosecution and imprisonment they could have got. It was done and dusted by 1952 - sixty years ago. So, once again, what "further persecution" are you talking about - apart from this thread?

    Overall, IMO we differ on this thread.

    As soldiers, we obey, we don't question, it is over. If you believe Dev was your commander and chief, it's over, finished, complete.

    Personally, I don't as I signed up for and swore and oath to the Irish Republic during the times of Donegan and Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh.


  • #180
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    gbee wrote: »
    Overall, IMO we differ on this thread.

    As soldiers, we obey, we don't question, it is over. If you believe Dev was your commander and chief, it's over, finished, complete.

    Personally, I don't as I signed up for and swore and oath to the Irish Republic during the times of Donegan and Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh.

    I'm sure that means something, but it beats the hell out of me what it is . . .


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  • #181
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    gbee wrote: »
    we serve and eat the black pudding sandwiches.

    :confused:


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