Tyson's heart, there or not?

walshb · 12-01-2012 12:01PM #1

I have ben reading posts now where I see that Tyson is held as a person who had no heart. I think this is very harsh and OTT.

I would like to know why some may think this.

If one looks at his career we see it is 20 years long. Youngest HW champ, beat any man on earth during the championshop reign.

Now, in those 20 years, ONLY once, in one single fight, one incident do I see an example of him lacking heart. He chose to foul his way out of the second Holyfiled fight. One moment of madness and it is leading some to say Tyson had no heart. Every other fight, win, KO loss is dismissed, and this solitary incident in 20 years sees this label placed on him. To me that is very harsh.

I do not label Duran as a fighter with no heart, and he did quit. Blatantly quit vs. Ray in 1980.

So, any views, thoughts. Did I miss another example in Mike's career where he showed quit, no heart?

BTW, just in case: Heart is a fighter's ability to fight under tough conditions, the never say die attaitue, the wanting to go on when the body is giving up, the giving it all, all the time.

Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on.

So, PLEASE, if using an example I may have missed, don't say "His KO losses." I want examples of him showing no heart, or showing he is a quitter.

So, that rules out his 44 wins. Never showed no heart in them, obvioulsy.

Now, we have six losses. The fight everyone sees is the second Holyfield fight.

The KO loss to Buster was a prime example of major heart, courage, determination and toughness. Pasted for ten rds, knocked down and STILL desperately trying to get up and continue.

KO loss to Holyfiled in fight 1, again, took a beating, took it like a man, and was saved by the ref whilst still on his feet.

Lewis: Battered from pillar to post for 8 rds and knocked out. Took it like a man. Took a lot of punishment and was finally knocked out, and well past his best days, well past.

I just cannot see any other examples in 20 years for me to label him a fighter with no heart. The Holyfield fight is the one I see, and that was once in 50 bouts and 20 years. Is it really fair to label him as having no heart based on this single moment of madness?

corny · 12-01-2012 01:02PM

You can't deny that that personal discipline and focus that made him such a force as a youngster faded as he got older. If you don't apply yourself 100% outside the ring i don't see how you can apply yourself 100% inside the ring.

Like you said he could take a beating and still come back for more but if his desire (heart) was true he'd probably still be heavyweight champion! Ok not quite.

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 01:10PM

Didn't he show lack of heart against Botha, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason

it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

walshb · 12-01-2012 01:19PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Didn't he show lack of heart against Golota, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason

it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

Slow getting up vs Buster? Come on, the man was almost dead, battered for ten rds. He was still looking for his gum shield. I have never heard anyone claim that Mike could have got up and continued that night.

I mentioned Evander. You mentioned it again. That is an example. I just would not hang him for this. The Golota example is a fight where Golota, an absolute turd, quit. He refused to go on. Mke w that. "Arm breaking" or not, he wn, Golota quit. There are hundreds of examples where men have won fights and in doing so committed fouls, some more serious than others. Tyson won that fight. Golota QUIT!

You know, when fighters are really past it, as Tyson was in most losses, we can atack their heart. How about Holyfield against Toney? I culd easily say that he went down easily, and could have went on. I won't, because he had heart. Let us apply the same logic to Tyson. He did not get of the floor vs. McBride.

Vit refused to continue vs. Byrd, injury issue. Many labeled him a quitter, not me.

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 01:34PM

walshb wrote: »

Slow getting up vs Buster? Come on, the man was almost dead, battered for ten rds. He was still looking for his gum shiled. I have never heard anyone claim that Mike could have got up and continued that night.

I mentioned Evander. You mentioned it again. That is an example. I juts would not hang him for this. The Golota example is a fight where Golota, an absolute turd, quit. He refused to go on.

he did not have to get his gumshield, Botha i meant nearly got his arm broke so let's be straight about this, Tyson done this because he did not like how the fight was going, it's not about who would have won-it's about tyson looking to break an arm because he lacked heart.

Tyson was the baddest man in the planet till fighters fought back, many of his early opponents gave up before the 1st punch was thrown, Bruno could have beat Tyson but was too terrified too.

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 01:45PM

As i said he was having a hard time, whats he do, tries to get out of the fight.

Tries to break his arm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buw4hScc54I

colly10 · 12-01-2012 02:06PM

There in his prime, not there later in his career

walshb · 12-01-2012 02:25PM

colly10 wrote: »

There in his prime, not there later in his career

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 02:48PM

walshb wrote: »

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

It was not 1 incident, it was several,

Biting Evanders ear twice to get out of fight

Trying to break Botha's arm to try get out of fight, then next round hitting him after the bell for the same reason

Just giving up v McBride

All where because the fights where not going his way.

thats just 3 incidents that showed lack of heart, there is probably more, He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

walshb · 12-01-2012 02:58PM

cowzerp wrote: »

He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

I challenge anyone to honestly back up this claim.

Watch Tyson. He was in dire straits, really badly hurt, shaken and at the bottom of his physical reserves. He had taken a steady pasting for ten rds.

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 03:17PM

walshb wrote: »

I challenge anyone to honestly back up this claim.

Watch Tyson. He was in dire straits, really badly hurt, shaken and at the bottom of his physical reserves. He had taken a steady pasting for ten rds.

So he was been stupid?

He could have beat the count and i have no doubt about that, he spent 3-4 seconds fumbling for the gumshield, again maybe he just wanted out.

gene_tunney · 12-01-2012 03:46PM

Tyson had very underrated heart.

The Holyfield incidents etc were from frustration, which is different.

I thought Tyson did phenomenally well to even stagger to his feet after the Douglas KO, one of the most brutal I've ever seen, and Tyson was after getting a pounding before that.

corny · 12-01-2012 03:55PM

cowzerp wrote: »

It was not 1 incident, it was several,

Biting Evanders ear twice to get out of fight

Trying to break Botha's arm to try get out of fight, then next round hitting him after the bell for the same reason

Just giving up v McBride

All where because the fights where not going his way.

thats just 3 incidents that showed lack of heart, there is probably more, He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

In fairness thats a bit disingenuous. All of these incidents could be symptom of a man unable to control his temper and not of a man who wants out.

Against Botha he did the business eventually. Against Holyfield he was absolutely irate with what he perceived to be unpunished headbutting. Did he lack heart or was he just a nutjob with a temper? I'd go for the latter tbh.

cowzerp · 12-01-2012 03:58PM

corny wrote: »

In fairness thats a bit disingenuous. All of these incidents could be symptom of a man unable to control his temper and not of a man who wants out.

Against Botha he did the business eventually. Against Holyfield he was absolutely irate with what he perceived to be unpunished headbutting. Did he lack heart or was he just a nutjob with a temper? I'd go for the latter tbh.

I'm not been disengenous at all, i think he wanted out in the Holyfield fight for sure, i also think he did v Botha when he trioed to break his arm.

Your in a Boxing ring, if you are annoyed punch the opponent! its allowed.

walshb · 12-01-2012 04:04PM

cowzerp wrote: »

So he was been stupid?

He could have beat the count and i have no doubt about that, he spent 3-4 seconds fumbling for the gumshield, again maybe he just wanted out.

Well, call it silly or stupid then; but no way in hell does it appear to me that the guy quit or lacked heart. He was in dire straits. It is so clear looking at him on the floor, and he got up, and almost fell down again. It was sheer courage and determination.

corny · 12-01-2012 04:07PM

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm not been disengenous at all, i think he wanted out in the Holyfield fight for sure, i also think he did v Botha when he trioed to break his arm.

Your in a Boxing ring, if you are annoyed punch the opponent! its allowed.

Fair enough but Tyson (given his upbringing) doesn't strike me as a man who'd rather walk away from the bullying tactics Holyfield (headbutting) tried on him. Completely atypical if you ask me. Resorting to biting his face was more his style.

StevePH · 12-01-2012 04:26PM

WalshB. We KNOW you love Tyson

...but you're on a hiding to nothing with this thread.

Did Tyson have heart/was he game? Yes. He was as game as many of the other men we admire for lacing up.

Tyson's talents (and to a large degree his aura) meant he never really had to show heart. You picked a few examples of his heart but that's hardly a career-long representation.

But put the 'heart' question another way....ask posters here if Tyson makes their top twenty list of warriors*. I don't think so.

*How on earth did tryingmybest miss that for a thread??? He's just about found every other great topic recently

walshb · 12-01-2012 04:34PM

StevePH wrote: »

WalshB. We KNOW you love Tyson ...but you're on a hiding to nothing with this thread.

Did Tyson have heart/was he game? Yes. He was as game as many of the other men we admire for lacing up.

Tyson's talents (and to a large degree his aura) meant he never really had to show heart. You picked a few examples of his heart but that's hardly a career-long representation.

But put the 'heart' question another way....ask posters here if Tyson makes their top twenty list of warriors*. I don't think so.

*How on earth did tryingmybest miss that for a thread??? He's just about found every other great topic recently

Hiding to nothing, look at the poll results.

The tread is precise, not warrior, or any other. Heart.

Looking at 20 years and 50 fights, I see one clear incident.

That is why I started the thread.

Top 20 list of warriors is another thread. This one is asking if one should label Tyisn as having no heart, after analysing his complete career, every fight, and every major moment.

Also, I defined what I believe to be heart, to make it easier.

StevePH · 12-01-2012 05:24PM

"Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on."

1. Bit an ear/tried a bit of armbreaking when the bully got bullied.
2. Stayed down that night against Lewis*.

* When that final knockdown came, Tyson lay there with open eyes and a clear mind. He wasn't knocked out.
One second after hittin the canvas, street instinct kicked in making him lift his head off the floor (on a Brownsville street, you'd check your attacker aint still comin at you).
Then he put his head back down. He lay there, eyes clear, looking up at the roof givin the appearance of a man who seemed to be thinkin "what the fk and I doin in here tonight".
This wasn't a man takin his 'standing eight' on his back to clear his mind/leg his legs get back together. He just didn't want any more at that stage
Tyson heard every number of that 10 count and gave the ref no complaint when it was waved off.

Tyson's talent and his aura brought him greatness. Not his heart.

walshb · 12-01-2012 05:45PM

StevePH wrote: »

"Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on."

1. Bit an ear/tried a bit of armbreaking when the bully got bullied.
2. Stayed down that night against Lewis*.

* When that final knockdown came, Tyson lay there with open eyes and a clear mind. He wasn't knocked out.
One second after hittin the canvas, street instinct kicked in making him lift his head off the floor (on a Brownsville street, you'd check your attacker aint still comin at you).
Then he put his head back down. He lay there, eyes clear, looking up at the roof givin the appearance of a man who seemed to be thinkin "what the fk and I doin in here tonight".
This wasn't a man takin his 'standing eight' on his back to clear his mind/leg his legs get back together. He just didn't want any more at that stage
Tyson heard every number of that 10 count and gave the ref no complaint when it was waved off.

Tyson's talent and his aura brought him greatness. Not his heart.

Why bring up the Holyfield example; I am with you on that. I agree on that one. I said I do not see any other clear incident in 50 fights.

The Lewis loss he took like a man, got battered for 8 rds, and crumbled. He was dead. Knackered and hurt, so he had his eyes open? Big Deal. If we apply this, then I could label many many other greats as not having heart

How can anyone with any ounce of certainty claim that after 8rds pasting vs. Lewis (while well past peak) that he could have gotten up and fought on?

That is why I used the word clear (clear he could have went on) in my description. I do not see anything clear when Tyson was battered by Lewis

Do we label Holyfield a quitter or lacking heart based on Toney? I mean, he took a beating, but not near as heavy as Mike took vs. Lewis.

I suppose you agree with Paul, who thinks in Tokyo that Tyson looked good enough to get up and fight on, but maybe chose not to?

Hiding to nothing? Poll suggests otherwise.

Also, never claimed his heart brought him greatness. I am saying that during his reign he showed he had heart. I think it's very harsh to label him as having no heart based off Holyfield II. That fight showed he wanted out; I agree. Still think ONE clear incident in 50 fights is harsh when claiming he had no heart.

Tokyo proved real heart. Ruddock fights proved it; Holyfield 1 showed his heart and toughness.

walshb · 12-01-2012 06:10PM

corny wrote: »

You can't deny that that personal discipline and focus that made him such a force as a youngster faded as he got older. If you don't apply yourself 100% outside the ring i don't see how you can apply yourself 100% inside the ring.

Like you said he could take a beating and still come back for more but if his desire (heart) was true he'd probably still be heavyweight champion! Ok not quite.

On a side note and to take up that point about heart.

Thing is, having heart as a young and fresh and peak fighter may not be the same when past your best, slower, older, fading. Heart is realated to what physical shape the body is in. The heart and determination may always be there, but because you are past it, over the top, not near as conditioned, fast, sharp etc, then your body will not allow the heart to prevail.

When a fighter fades and loses his peak traits, then he is susceptible to losees, and bad losses; KO losses.

BTW, in case tryingmybest jumps in;;) yes, physical maturity and age can help. I am talking about being clearly past what is required to be real competitive. Like Ali in 1980.

Like Toney in his last few years. Almost stopped vs. Lebedev. Heart still there, just physically a wreck and had no answer. If Lebedev had really went for it Toney would have suffered his first KO loss.

There are countless other examples. In relation to Tyson he went 11 years and over 40 fights before we saw that lack of heart vs. Holyfiled. Add in that he also spent three years inside.

tryingmybestt · 12-01-2012 06:28PM

I don't think it's black and white....Heart or no heart !!...

i think it's a question of how much heart because any man who gets in the squared circle has heart....

i certainly haven't seen any posts saying he has NO heart!! thats ridiculous !

i've seen posts and i made some questioning tyson's level of heart when comparing him against elite fighters such as joe louis or Ali..

to even ask the question does tyson have heart is SILLY, of course he does.....i don't feel he has the elite level heart the people like Frazier, Ali, Chavez, Duran etc. showed...

the question should be how much heart he has and is it elite level!

walshb · 12-01-2012 06:35PM

tryingmybestt wrote: »

I don't think it's black and white....Heart or no heart !!...

i think it's a question of heart because any man who gets in the squared circle has heart....

i certainly haven't seen any posts saying he has NO heart!! thats ridiculous !

i've seen posts and i made some questioning tyson's level of heart when comparing him against elite fighters such as joe louis or Ali..

to even ask the question does tyson have heart is SILLY, of course he does.....i don't feel he has the elite level heart the people like Frazier, Ali, Chavez, Duran etc. showed...

the question should be how much heart he has and is it elite level!

Excellent post. But, why I posted it is that some flat out label him like that.

20 years, and 50 fights, and an incident here and ther, and he is slated.

Level of heart is better; tough to measure, very very subjective, but I am ok saying Ali had more heart than Tyson.

tryingmybestt · 12-01-2012 06:37PM

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post. But, why I posted it is that some flat out label him like that.

'Some' as in YOU

I'm glad your backtracking on this point at least !

Spazdarn · 12-01-2012 06:40PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Didn't he show lack of heart against Botha, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason

it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

Is that not temperament more than heart though?

corny · 12-01-2012 07:05PM

walshb wrote: »

Thing is, having heart as a young and fresh and peak fighter may not be the same when past your best, slower, older, fading. Heart is realated to what physical shape the body is in. The heart and determination may always be there, but because you are past it, over the top, not near as conditioned, fast, sharp etc, then your body will not allow the heart to prevail.

You can still go out on your shield though!

For me heart is just a romantic word for determination. Some fighters have it dripping out of them and always will. Tyson wasn't one of these people but he certainly wasn't lacking as a young fighter. Fighting every couple of weeks and by all accounts as eager as they come to prove himself.

Then he became WC, fame and fortune grabbed him and he came out of prison a changed man. So much so i'd even say everything after this was just for the money. His former trainer actually predicted he'd get disqualified against Holyfield. He went in just to get revenge for the first fight. What does that say about his mindset?

Has or hasn't he heart? Its not a constant thing. He did at one stage but he spent most of his career not giving a **** about what happened in the ring.

walshb · 12-01-2012 08:25PM

corny wrote: »

You can still go out on your shield though!
.

Yes, and I think he did in some of his losses, Buster and Holyfield 1 and Lewis.

Littlehorny · 12-01-2012 08:40PM

The reason why Tyson will always be thought of as lacking heart is because in all his really tough fights, where things are not going your way he never once made a comeback and won a big fight. Probably the best front runner in heavyweight history but that flaw will always be on his record.
But also for the record i believe Tyson did not give up in the Lewis fight, he was getting well beaten by round eight and took more than enough punishment by that stage.

section4 · 12-01-2012 09:02PM

Littlehorny wrote: »

The reason why Tyson will always be thought of as lacking heart is because in all his really tough fights, where things are not going your way he never once made a comeback and won a big fight. Probably the best front runner in heavyweight history but that flaw will always be on his record.
But also for the record i believe Tyson did not give up in the Lewis fight, he was getting well beaten by round eight and took more than enough punishment by that stage.

in fact i think he had no intention of trying to win that fight and had given up before he went in.

that is another form of having no heart

i think he only went through the motions for the money

colly10 · 12-01-2012 09:03PM

walshb wrote: »

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

It wasn't just the Holyfield fight i was talking about, he also quit on his stool against mcbride. The guy had buckets of heart in his prime, the guy was loosing hair over the stress of keeping himself at the top.
But I don't think it was something that he had for his whole career. There were times where he was all heart and times where he had none

walshb · 12-01-2012 09:07PM

colly10 wrote: »

It wasn't just the Holyfield fight i was talking about, he also quit on his stool against mcbride. The guy had buckets of heart in his prime, the guy was loosing hair over the stress of keeping himself at the top.
But I don't think it was something that he had for his whole career. There were times where he was all heart and times where he had none

Didn't he just fail to get up in the McBride fight? Anyway, he was taost by then, complete toast. Many greats have "quit" on the stool, or failed to beat counts at times, just do not believe the label should be immediately applied. I tend to look more at their great displays of heart and courage.

Apart from Holyfiled II I just do not see real clear evidence of "no heart"

Even in the bite fight, he was looking for a way out, as well as being pissed that he was being butted. I agree, it is an example of showing quit and a lack of heart.

Tyson's heart, there or not?

Tyson's heart, there or not? 19 votes

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