Tyson's heart, there or not?

walshb

I have ben reading posts now where I see that Tyson is held as a person who had no heart. I think this is very harsh and OTT.

I would like to know why some may think this.

If one looks at his career we see it is 20 years long. Youngest HW champ, beat any man on earth during the championshop reign.

Now, in those 20 years, ONLY once, in one single fight, one incident do I see an example of him lacking heart. He chose to foul his way out of the second Holyfiled fight. One moment of madness and it is leading some to say Tyson had no heart. Every other fight, win, KO loss is dismissed, and this solitary incident in 20 years sees this label placed on him. To me that is very harsh.

I do not label Duran as a fighter with no heart, and he did quit. Blatantly quit vs. Ray in 1980.

So, any views, thoughts. Did I miss another example in Mike's career where he showed quit, no heart?

BTW, just in case: Heart is a fighter's ability to fight under tough conditions, the never say die attaitue, the wanting to go on when the body is giving up, the giving it all, all the time.

Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on.

So, PLEASE, if using an example I may have missed, don't say "His KO losses." I want examples of him showing no heart, or showing he is a quitter.

So, that rules out his 44 wins. Never showed no heart in them, obvioulsy.

Now, we have six losses. The fight everyone sees is the second Holyfield fight.

The KO loss to Buster was a prime example of major heart, courage, determination and toughness. Pasted for ten rds, knocked down and STILL desperately trying to get up and continue.

KO loss to Holyfiled in fight 1, again, took a beating, took it like a man, and was saved by the ref whilst still on his feet.

Lewis: Battered from pillar to post for 8 rds and knocked out. Took it like a man. Took a lot of punishment and was finally knocked out, and well past his best days, well past.

I just cannot see any other examples in 20 years for me to label him a fighter with no heart. The Holyfield fight is the one I see, and that was once in 50 bouts and 20 years. Is it really fair to label him as having no heart based on this single moment of madness?

corny

You can't deny that that personal discipline and focus that made him such a force as a youngster faded as he got older. If you don't apply yourself 100% outside the ring i don't see how you can apply yourself 100% inside the ring.

Like you said he could take a beating and still come back for more but if his desire (heart) was true he'd probably still be heavyweight champion! Ok not quite.

cowzerp

Didn't he show lack of heart against Botha, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason


it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Didn't he show lack of heart against Golota, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason


it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

Slow getting up vs Buster? Come on, the man was almost dead, battered for ten rds. He was still looking for his gum shield. I have never heard anyone claim that Mike could have got up and continued that night.

I mentioned Evander. You mentioned it again. That is an example. I just would not hang him for this. The Golota example is a fight where Golota, an absolute turd, quit. He refused to go on. Mke w that. "Arm breaking" or not, he wn, Golota quit. There are hundreds of examples where men have won fights and in doing so committed fouls, some more serious than others. Tyson won that fight. Golota QUIT!

You know, when fighters are really past it, as Tyson was in most losses, we can atack their heart. How about Holyfield against Toney? I culd easily say that he went down easily, and could have went on. I won't, because he had heart. Let us apply the same logic to Tyson. He did not get of the floor vs. McBride.

Vit refused to continue vs. Byrd, injury issue. Many labeled him a quitter, not me.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Slow getting up vs Buster? Come on, the man was almost dead, battered for ten rds. He was still looking for his gum shiled. I have never heard anyone claim that Mike could have got up and continued that night.

I mentioned Evander. You mentioned it again. That is an example. I juts would not hang him for this. The Golota example is a fight where Golota, an absolute turd, quit. He refused to go on.

he did not have to get his gumshield, Botha i meant nearly got his arm broke so let's be straight about this, Tyson done this because he did not like how the fight was going, it's not about who would have won-it's about tyson looking to break an arm because he lacked heart.

Tyson was the baddest man in the planet till fighters fought back, many of his early opponents gave up before the 1st punch was thrown, Bruno could have beat Tyson but was too terrified too.

cowzerp

As i said he was having a hard time, whats he do, tries to get out of the fight.

Tries to break his arm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buw4hScc54I

colly10

There in his prime, not there later in his career

walshb

colly10 wrote: »

There in his prime, not there later in his career

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

It was not 1 incident, it was several,

Biting Evanders ear twice to get out of fight

Trying to break Botha's arm to try get out of fight, then next round hitting him after the bell for the same reason

Just giving up v McBride

All where because the fights where not going his way.

thats just 3 incidents that showed lack of heart, there is probably more, He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

I challenge anyone to honestly back up this claim.

Watch Tyson. He was in dire straits, really badly hurt, shaken and at the bottom of his physical reserves. He had taken a steady pasting for ten rds.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I challenge anyone to honestly back up this claim.

Watch Tyson. He was in dire straits, really badly hurt, shaken and at the bottom of his physical reserves. He had taken a steady pasting for ten rds.

So he was been stupid?

He could have beat the count and i have no doubt about that, he spent 3-4 seconds fumbling for the gumshield, again maybe he just wanted out.

gene_tunney

Tyson had very underrated heart.

The Holyfield incidents etc were from frustration, which is different.

I thought Tyson did phenomenally well to even stagger to his feet after the Douglas KO, one of the most brutal I've ever seen, and Tyson was after getting a pounding before that.

corny

cowzerp wrote: »

It was not 1 incident, it was several,

Biting Evanders ear twice to get out of fight

Trying to break Botha's arm to try get out of fight, then next round hitting him after the bell for the same reason

Just giving up v McBride

All where because the fights where not going his way.

thats just 3 incidents that showed lack of heart, there is probably more, He could have got up v Douglas, it was either lack of heart or Stupidity

In fairness thats a bit disingenuous. All of these incidents could be symptom of a man unable to control his temper and not of a man who wants out.

Against Botha he did the business eventually. Against Holyfield he was absolutely irate with what he perceived to be unpunished headbutting. Did he lack heart or was he just a nutjob with a temper? I'd go for the latter tbh.

cowzerp

corny wrote: »

In fairness thats a bit disingenuous. All of these incidents could be symptom of a man unable to control his temper and not of a man who wants out.

Against Botha he did the business eventually. Against Holyfield he was absolutely irate with what he perceived to be unpunished headbutting. Did he lack heart or was he just a nutjob with a temper? I'd go for the latter tbh.

I'm not been disengenous at all, i think he wanted out in the Holyfield fight for sure, i also think he did v Botha when he trioed to break his arm.

Your in a Boxing ring, if you are annoyed punch the opponent! its allowed.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

So he was been stupid?

He could have beat the count and i have no doubt about that, he spent 3-4 seconds fumbling for the gumshield, again maybe he just wanted out.

Well, call it silly or stupid then; but no way in hell does it appear to me that the guy quit or lacked heart. He was in dire straits. It is so clear looking at him on the floor, and he got up, and almost fell down again. It was sheer courage and determination.

corny

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm not been disengenous at all, i think he wanted out in the Holyfield fight for sure, i also think he did v Botha when he trioed to break his arm.

Your in a Boxing ring, if you are annoyed punch the opponent! its allowed.

Fair enough but Tyson (given his upbringing) doesn't strike me as a man who'd rather walk away from the bullying tactics Holyfield (headbutting) tried on him. Completely atypical if you ask me. Resorting to biting his face was more his style.

StevePH

WalshB. We KNOW you love Tyson ...but you're on a hiding to nothing with this thread.

Did Tyson have heart/was he game? Yes. He was as game as many of the other men we admire for lacing up.

Tyson's talents (and to a large degree his aura) meant he never really had to show heart. You picked a few examples of his heart but that's hardly a career-long representation.

But put the 'heart' question another way....ask posters here if Tyson makes their top twenty list of warriors*. I don't think so.


*How on earth did tryingmybest miss that for a thread??? He's just about found every other great topic recently

walshb

StevePH wrote: »

WalshB. We KNOW you love Tyson ...but you're on a hiding to nothing with this thread.

Did Tyson have heart/was he game? Yes. He was as game as many of the other men we admire for lacing up.

Tyson's talents (and to a large degree his aura) meant he never really had to show heart. You picked a few examples of his heart but that's hardly a career-long representation.

But put the 'heart' question another way....ask posters here if Tyson makes their top twenty list of warriors*. I don't think so.


*How on earth did tryingmybest miss that for a thread??? He's just about found every other great topic recently

Hiding to nothing, look at the poll results.

The tread is precise, not warrior, or any other. Heart.

Looking at 20 years and 50 fights, I see one clear incident.

That is why I started the thread.

Top 20 list of warriors is another thread. This one is asking if one should label Tyisn as having no heart, after analysing his complete career, every fight, and every major moment.

Also, I defined what I believe to be heart, to make it easier.

StevePH

"Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on."



1. Bit an ear/tried a bit of armbreaking when the bully got bullied.
2. Stayed down that night against Lewis*.


* When that final knockdown came, Tyson lay there with open eyes and a clear mind. He wasn't knocked out.
One second after hittin the canvas, street instinct kicked in making him lift his head off the floor (on a Brownsville street, you'd check your attacker aint still comin at you).
Then he put his head back down. He lay there, eyes clear, looking up at the roof givin the appearance of a man who seemed to be thinkin "what the fk and I doin in here tonight".
This wasn't a man takin his 'standing eight' on his back to clear his mind/leg his legs get back together. He just didn't want any more at that stage
Tyson heard every number of that 10 count and gave the ref no complaint when it was waved off.

Tyson's talent and his aura brought him greatness. Not his heart.

walshb

StevePH wrote: »

"Lack of heart: A fighter who shows quit when the going gets tough, fouls or feigns injury to get out of a fight, stays down when it is clear he could have went on."



1. Bit an ear/tried a bit of armbreaking when the bully got bullied.
2. Stayed down that night against Lewis*.


* When that final knockdown came, Tyson lay there with open eyes and a clear mind. He wasn't knocked out.
One second after hittin the canvas, street instinct kicked in making him lift his head off the floor (on a Brownsville street, you'd check your attacker aint still comin at you).
Then he put his head back down. He lay there, eyes clear, looking up at the roof givin the appearance of a man who seemed to be thinkin "what the fk and I doin in here tonight".
This wasn't a man takin his 'standing eight' on his back to clear his mind/leg his legs get back together. He just didn't want any more at that stage
Tyson heard every number of that 10 count and gave the ref no complaint when it was waved off.

Tyson's talent and his aura brought him greatness. Not his heart.

Why bring up the Holyfield example; I am with you on that. I agree on that one. I said I do not see any other clear incident in 50 fights.

The Lewis loss he took like a man, got battered for 8 rds, and crumbled. He was dead. Knackered and hurt, so he had his eyes open? Big Deal. If we apply this, then I could label many many other greats as not having heart

How can anyone with any ounce of certainty claim that after 8rds pasting vs. Lewis (while well past peak) that he could have gotten up and fought on?

That is why I used the word clear (clear he could have went on) in my description. I do not see anything clear when Tyson was battered by Lewis

Do we label Holyfield a quitter or lacking heart based on Toney? I mean, he took a beating, but not near as heavy as Mike took vs. Lewis.

I suppose you agree with Paul, who thinks in Tokyo that Tyson looked good enough to get up and fight on, but maybe chose not to?

Hiding to nothing? Poll suggests otherwise.

Also, never claimed his heart brought him greatness. I am saying that during his reign he showed he had heart. I think it's very harsh to label him as having no heart based off Holyfield II. That fight showed he wanted out; I agree. Still think ONE clear incident in 50 fights is harsh when claiming he had no heart.

Tokyo proved real heart. Ruddock fights proved it; Holyfield 1 showed his heart and toughness.

walshb

corny wrote: »

You can't deny that that personal discipline and focus that made him such a force as a youngster faded as he got older. If you don't apply yourself 100% outside the ring i don't see how you can apply yourself 100% inside the ring.

Like you said he could take a beating and still come back for more but if his desire (heart) was true he'd probably still be heavyweight champion! Ok not quite.

On a side note and to take up that point about heart.

Thing is, having heart as a young and fresh and peak fighter may not be the same when past your best, slower, older, fading. Heart is realated to what physical shape the body is in. The heart and determination may always be there, but because you are past it, over the top, not near as conditioned, fast, sharp etc, then your body will not allow the heart to prevail.

When a fighter fades and loses his peak traits, then he is susceptible to losees, and bad losses; KO losses.

BTW, in case tryingmybest jumps in;;) yes, physical maturity and age can help. I am talking about being clearly past what is required to be real competitive. Like Ali in 1980.

Like Toney in his last few years. Almost stopped vs. Lebedev. Heart still there, just physically a wreck and had no answer. If Lebedev had really went for it Toney would have suffered his first KO loss.

There are countless other examples. In relation to Tyson he went 11 years and over 40 fights before we saw that lack of heart vs. Holyfiled. Add in that he also spent three years inside.

tryingmybestt

I don't think it's black and white....Heart or no heart !!...

i think it's a question of how much heart because any man who gets in the squared circle has heart....

i certainly haven't seen any posts saying he has NO heart!! thats ridiculous !

i've seen posts and i made some questioning tyson's level of heart when comparing him against elite fighters such as joe louis or Ali..

to even ask the question does tyson have heart is SILLY, of course he does.....i don't feel he has the elite level heart the people like Frazier, Ali, Chavez, Duran etc. showed...

the question should be how much heart he has and is it elite level!

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

I don't think it's black and white....Heart or no heart !!...

i think it's a question of heart because any man who gets in the squared circle has heart....

i certainly haven't seen any posts saying he has NO heart!! thats ridiculous !

i've seen posts and i made some questioning tyson's level of heart when comparing him against elite fighters such as joe louis or Ali..

to even ask the question does tyson have heart is SILLY, of course he does.....i don't feel he has the elite level heart the people like Frazier, Ali, Chavez, Duran etc. showed...

the question should be how much heart he has and is it elite level!

Excellent post. But, why I posted it is that some flat out label him like that.

20 years, and 50 fights, and an incident here and ther, and he is slated.

Level of heart is better; tough to measure, very very subjective, but I am ok saying Ali had more heart than Tyson.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Excellent post. But, why I posted it is that some flat out label him like that.

'Some' as in YOU

I'm glad your backtracking on this point at least !

Spazdarn

cowzerp wrote: »

Didn't he show lack of heart against Botha, tried to break his arm when he was having a tough time of it

Bit Evanders ear when he was not having it his way

Quit against Mcbride for the same reason


it's easy to have heart when all is going your way, it's when your under pressure you see real heart, even v Buster Douglas i feel he was very slow getting up and he may have wanted out

Is that not temperament more than heart though?

corny

walshb wrote: »

Thing is, having heart as a young and fresh and peak fighter may not be the same when past your best, slower, older, fading. Heart is realated to what physical shape the body is in. The heart and determination may always be there, but because you are past it, over the top, not near as conditioned, fast, sharp etc, then your body will not allow the heart to prevail.

You can still go out on your shield though!

For me heart is just a romantic word for determination. Some fighters have it dripping out of them and always will. Tyson wasn't one of these people but he certainly wasn't lacking as a young fighter. Fighting every couple of weeks and by all accounts as eager as they come to prove himself.

Then he became WC, fame and fortune grabbed him and he came out of prison a changed man. So much so i'd even say everything after this was just for the money. His former trainer actually predicted he'd get disqualified against Holyfield. He went in just to get revenge for the first fight. What does that say about his mindset?

Has or hasn't he heart? Its not a constant thing. He did at one stage but he spent most of his career not giving a **** about what happened in the ring.

walshb

corny wrote: »

You can still go out on your shield though!
.

Yes, and I think he did in some of his losses, Buster and Holyfield 1 and Lewis.

Littlehorny

The reason why Tyson will always be thought of as lacking heart is because in all his really tough fights, where things are not going your way he never once made a comeback and won a big fight. Probably the best front runner in heavyweight history but that flaw will always be on his record.
But also for the record i believe Tyson did not give up in the Lewis fight, he was getting well beaten by round eight and took more than enough punishment by that stage.

section4

Littlehorny wrote: »

The reason why Tyson will always be thought of as lacking heart is because in all his really tough fights, where things are not going your way he never once made a comeback and won a big fight. Probably the best front runner in heavyweight history but that flaw will always be on his record.
But also for the record i believe Tyson did not give up in the Lewis fight, he was getting well beaten by round eight and took more than enough punishment by that stage.

in fact i think he had no intention of trying to win that fight and had given up before he went in.

that is another form of having no heart

i think he only went through the motions for the money

colly10

walshb wrote: »

Based off one incident in career 2. That is my point. I think that is very harsh to say he then has no heart as in his whole resume.

He still showed a lot of heart in career 2. Many examples. The Holyfiled fight 1, the Lewis loss, both Ruddock fights.

Paul, Golota was the one who quit. Tyson won that fight. I do see your point, though. Just not hanging him on this.

Duran, fellas? Would you apply the "no heart" tag to him?

It wasn't just the Holyfield fight i was talking about, he also quit on his stool against mcbride. The guy had buckets of heart in his prime, the guy was loosing hair over the stress of keeping himself at the top.
But I don't think it was something that he had for his whole career. There were times where he was all heart and times where he had none

walshb

colly10 wrote: »

It wasn't just the Holyfield fight i was talking about, he also quit on his stool against mcbride. The guy had buckets of heart in his prime, the guy was loosing hair over the stress of keeping himself at the top.
But I don't think it was something that he had for his whole career. There were times where he was all heart and times where he had none

Didn't he just fail to get up in the McBride fight? Anyway, he was taost by then, complete toast. Many greats have "quit" on the stool, or failed to beat counts at times, just do not believe the label should be immediately applied. I tend to look more at their great displays of heart and courage.

Apart from Holyfiled II I just do not see real clear evidence of "no heart"

Even in the bite fight, he was looking for a way out, as well as being pissed that he was being butted. I agree, it is an example of showing quit and a lack of heart.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Tyson was the baddest man in the planet till fighters fought back, many of his early opponents gave up before the 1st punch was thrown, Bruno could have beat Tyson but was too terrified too.

How could Bruno have beaten him? Twice he was destroyed. Too terrified, and whose fault is that? Bruno beat nobody. He lost all his big fights by KO. Tyson was never losing to any Bruno, terrified, or high as a kite.

Tell you one thing, whoever gave Tyson such a menacing stare as Frank Bruno? How can you know he was too terrified? Tyson after three years inside came out and destroyed Bruno.

Spinks may have been terrified. At least Spinks looked terrified, but folks say Spinks always had that look. I think he knew he was in big trouble.

Paul, you say many times that you are a fan of Tyson and that in his day he was very good, so, how then can you say that a fighter like Bruno beats him?

By that I assume then you could think that Tubbs, Pinky, Tucker and Smith also would have beaten him, because all these are better than any Frank Bruno. Ruddock too is better; was Ruddock scared? No way. He really fought his ass off.

Tyson wins, and excuses are made; he loses, and folks diss him saying "sure he was overrated" or the only reason he won was "fighters' were too scared."

The guy really does get some stick.

tysonslovechild

cowzerp wrote: »

So he was been stupid?

He could have beat the count and i have no doubt about that, he spent 3-4 seconds fumbling for the gumshield, again maybe he just wanted out.

Spent 3 or 4 seconds looking for his gumshield because his brain was scrambled. Saying he wanted out is crazy. What was stupid was the fact his dicsipline deteriorated when he lost damato.

walshb

tysonslovechild wrote: »

Spent 3 or 4 seconds looking for his gumshield because his brain was scrambled. Saying he wanted out is crazy. What was stupid was the fact his dicsipline deteriorated when he lost damato.

BADLY SCRAMBLED FROM TEN RDS OF MANY FLUSH BOMBS.

Thinking about it, Tyosn on that floor looked as distressed and in trouble as any fighter I have ever seen. That is how bad he was. And to still desperately try and contine, stupidity or not, showed extreme courage and heart.

Vit hurts his arm and quits and nobody says much. Tyson gets battered for ten rds and is in a heap on the deck scrambling to try and continue, and some folks say he does not show heart.

tryingmybestt

i don't think tyson quit against douglas but he showed definite frailties in his make up during his career...

i think your poll is quite accurate....tyson has heart but not at the elite level

do you think if you did the same poll for ali, frazier or chavez you would get one third of the poll saying they've no heart?

sxt

I wouldn't ever question his heart as a boxer when he got in the ring

but didn't he often say that he fell out of love for the sport, I always got the impression that he continued fighting in his later career to settle large debts owned etc ?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i don't think tyson quit against douglas but he showed definite frailties in his make up during his career...

i think your poll is quite accurate....tyson has heart but not at the elite level

do you think if you did the same poll for ali, frazier or chavez you would get one third of the poll saying they've no heart?

I think the whole question is almost always so subjective. Who had more heart, Marciano or Frazier etc etc etc. Impossible to answer.

Ceratinly when one looks at the careers it is clear that Ali and Frazier "showed" more than Mike that their "heart" was solid. They seemed to respond better to adversary.

What I want is for clear examples of a lack of heart. Holyfield II is clear.

Other examples are debatable, as are other examples for many fighters thru the years.

I remenber many slating Cotto when he "quit" vs. Margarito. I didn't think he quit at all.

And, we must analyse everything when comparing. I don't think people at all factor in what three yeras incarcerated can do to a man mentally.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I think the whole question is almost always so subjective. Who had more heart, Marciano or Frazier etc etc etc. Impossible to answer.

Ceratinly when one looks at the careers it is clear that Ali and Frazier "showed" more than Mike that their "heart" was solid.

What I want is for clear examples of a lack of heart. Holyfield II is clear.

Other examples are debatable, as are other examples for many fighters thru the years.

I remenber many slating Cotto when he "quit" vs. Margarito. I didn't think he quit at all.

we're being critical of tyson because we're judging him against the very elite....

i would put frazier, ali, chavez etc. in the same group of having unquestionable heart...

tyson definitely has a lot of heart but he showed frailties during his career....

examples are

Botha fight
Lewis fight....he talked so much before the fight and fought more at press conference and then totally didnt perform or give it 100% after the first couple of rounds
in both holyfield fights he showed a lack of determination....great fighters like ali would have overcome the butts and found a way to win anyway...
in mitch green, tillis and tucker fights once he couldnt get quick ko he slowed down totally more worried about stamina.....he admits this after fight
the mcbride fight is another example
another example is his lack of discipline and determination in training...this translated into his defeat against douglas

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

we're being critical of tyson because we're judging him against the very elite....

i would put frazier, ali, chavez etc. in the same group of having unquestionable heart...

tyson definitely has a lot of heart but he showed frailties during his career....

examples are

Botha fight
Lewis fight....he talked so much before the fight and fought more at press conference and then totally didnt perform or give it 100% after the first couple of rounds
in both holyfield fights he showed a lack of determination....great fighters like ali would have overcome the butts and found a way to win anyway...
in mitch green, tillis and tucker fights once he couldnt get quick ko he slowed down totally more worried about stamina.....he admits this after fight
the mcbride fight is another example
another example is his lack of discipline and determination in the ring....this translated into his defeat against douglas

But, he couldn't beat Holyfield. That is the point. He tried and couldn't beat him. I don't see this as relevant to "greats find a way to win," eh, Holyfield too is great, he is in that ring too, you know. Trying his ass off.

The fisrt fight he lost in 11 rds, took a good beating, fought his ass off and simply lost a fight.

The second fight was where he flipped and showed a lack of charcter and heart.

You mention BOTH fights? I have watched them, and in fight 1 I cannot see how you can quetion his determination, heart or commitment. He simply lost to the better man, end of.

And, again, these losses came when Tyson had spent three years in a prison.
Past his peak days etc. Holyfield was past his best as well, I juts think Mike was more so.

Loss to Douglas? Many possible reasons. Mine: He just didn't prepare the way he used to prepare. He was not physically the same, it was clear from the first round. Add this to Doiglas coming in well prepared and putting on a great display, and that spells trouble. I blame Mike for the loss, but no way in that bout did he show a lack of heart. No way!

Littlehorny

You seem to be defining heart in a fighter where he quits and you'r right in that aspect that Tyson only intentionally quit in one tough fight, but i think heart in a fighter is alot more general that just boiling it down to quitting. I think alot of people are saying Tyson never triumphed in adversity so his spirit must come into question. The Douglas fight and the two Holyfield fights are the ones that blew away the myth of Mike Tyson.
By the time he met Lewis, i think he was hoping to score an early ko but although they were roughly the same age, Lewis was in a much better place in every aspect and he was too big, too strong and his big heavy jab was enough to keep Tyson at arms length.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Loss to Douglas? Many possible reasons. Mine: He just didn't prepare the way he used to prepare. He was not physically the same, it was clear from the first round. Add this to Doiglas coming in well prepared and putting on a great display, and that spells trouble. I blame Mike for the loss, but no way in that bout did he show a lack of heart. No way!

i clearly said in my last post that he showed a lack of determination in TRAINING abd this translated into hiss ring performance......heart is needed for the hard training and discipline as well as taking the blows in the ring.....

you think hard is only required when taking a shot.....ali, frazier and chavez always trained like beasts...they had the discipline and determination and will to win

makl

walshb wrote: »

I remenber many slating Cotto when he "quit" vs. Margarito. I didn't think he quit at all.

cotto says he quit, says he thought of his family and took a knee. but regardless, he would have been fuken mad to stay up. does it mean hed less heart? no. think of billy collins who fought to the death, literally. is that what you have to do have heart?

heart comes thru training and into the ring, tyson had loads of it, maybe prison took a bit of his sting away, course hed a bloody heart, hes done far more than most other sportsmen.

tryingmybestt

tyson definitely has lots of heart

on a scale of 1 to 10....10 is the best and 1 is worst.....

i would give ali and frazier a 10......i'd give zab juah a 4.....i'd give tyson a 9.....just below the top elite level

tysonslovechild

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i don't think tyson quit against douglas but he showed definite frailties in his make up during his career...

i think your poll is quite accurate....tyson has heart but not at the elite level

do you think if you did the same poll for ali, frazier or chavez you would get one third of the poll saying they've no heart?

Yes tyson did have frailties. but he was also very vulnerable. You just have to listen to some of the things he says over his career.The poll asks did he have heart, well as I stated before, With Cus Damato yes I definatley think so, Damato instilled a self belief in tyson that no one could. He also showed tyson how to be outside the ring. Tyson I think is one of the most mis understood people in the public eye. Im in no way a tyson fanatic but some things the man said were genius

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

How could Bruno have beaten him? Twice he was destroyed. Too terrified, and whose fault is that? Bruno beat nobody. He lost all his big fights by KO. Tyson was never losing to any Bruno, terrified, or high as a kite.
.

Tyson had an awe of invincibility, Bruno was hypnotised an all to fight Tyson, you ask how he could have beaten him?

Do you remember the fight, Tyson was almost out on his feet and Bruno did not go in for the finish-thats how.

walshb wrote: »

Paul, you say many times that you are a fan of Tyson and that in his day he was very good, so, how then can you say that a fighter like Bruno beats him?.

Read above, plus bruno had a superb jab and great power-all he lacked was the chin and killer instinct.

Boxing unlike other sports you can like everyone, you could not follow Man U and Liverpool but you can follow Mayweather and Pacquioa in Boxing.

Or change your mind who is your favourite after a fight, Man u could beat liverpool 10 nil and i'd still be Liverpool through and through.

So yes i did love watching Tyson, I do think he looked great beating bums and then ok fighters, When he fought the gigher level he lost-2nd career blah blah blah, it may be true but it's no coincedence either.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Tyson had an awe of invincibility, Bruno was hypnotised an all to fight Tyson, you ask how he could have beaten him?

Do you remember the fight, Tyson was almost out on his feet and Bruno did not go in for the finish-thats how.




Read above, plus bruno had a superb jab and great power-all he lacked was the chin and killer instinct.

Boxing unlike other sports you can like everyone, you could not follow Man U and Liverpool but you can follow Mayweather and Pacquioa in Boxing.

Or change your mind who is your favourite after a fight, Man u could beat liverpool 10 nil and i'd still be Liverpool through and through.

So yes i did love watching Tyson, I do think he looked great beating bums and then ok fighters, When he fought the gigher level he lost-2nd career blah blah blah, it may be true but it's no coincedence either.

One decent punch from a 16 stone heavy landed, Tyson rocked, and within a second, he was grand. Bruno also lost every other second of that fight. He was down 4 rounds to nil. It was domination, and domination when it was clear that Mike was slipping. That was the first fight for Mike without his key men with him. He even looked a step slower.

How is that out on his feet?

Lewis vs. McCall was out on his feet. Holyfiled, vs. Bowe, at times was out on his feet.

Bowe in fight 3 just before he finished Holyfield, was out on his feet.

Clay vs. Cooper was out on his feet.

Tyson had a fraction of a wobble, and then back to business.

Calling Tyson's championship reign opponents bums is so off the mark. Are they bums because Mike beat them, or are they bums? Consider please that they were the TOP ranked heavies on earth.

Look, every 16 stone heavy handed man could beat another, but putting forward Bruno with confidence, which is what you are doing, to me is well off the mark. He was destroyed twice, and was also KO'd twice before he ever met Tyson.

Bruno is IMO a poor example of a "fighter" who could have beaten Mike. I see no real way, apart from a lucky hail mary, and even then, as we BOTH agree, Tyson's chin was grade A.

About second career. Can I ask you, had Lewis at peak met the 1986-1988 Tyson, who wins?

Becaues, it has to matter that in 2002 that Mike was complete toast. Similar to Ali in the late 70s. Toast.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

One decent punch from a 16 stone heavy landed, Tyson rocked, and within a second, he was grand.

why are you changing what i said, i never said Bruno was better than Tyson, i said he could have beat him-he was 1 punch away from it only he froze instead of nailing tyson when he was ready to go.

your 1 seconds rocked is a convenient memory too-he was very shaken and for several seconds.

walshb wrote: »

About second career. Can I ask you, had Lewis at peak met the 1986-1988 Tyson, who wins?

Becaues, it has to matter that in 2002 that Mike was complete toast. Similar to Ali in the late 70s. Toast.

I am not a fan of Lewis, a man Bruno bashed before lewis landed his lucky punch on Bruno.

Tyson had the power to KO him but if he didn't in the 1st 5-6 then i think we'd see this HEART issue arise again, Mike was a typical BULLY-liked to give it but not to take it.

Saying Tyson showed no heart issues in 40 fights etc makes no sense, his 1st 28 or so where easy, then Berbick who was hardly scary, smith lost 5 of 24 fights, Thomas, Tucker, Holmes a past it great, Tubbs, Spinks a middleweight moved to light heavy then a few fights at heavy was good overall and then Douglas, we may know all there names but nobody there was any sort of challenge.

i'd rate Tyson as a 6-10 for heart.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

why are you changing what i said, i never said Bruno was better than Tyson, i said he could have beat him-he was 1 punch away from it only he froze instead of nailing tyson when he was ready to go.

your 1 seconds rocked is a convenient memory too-he was very shaken and for several seconds.



I am not a fan of Lewis, a man Bruno bashed before lewis landed his lucky punch on Bruno.

Tyson had the power to KO him but if he didn't in the 1st 5-6 then i think we'd see this HEART issue arise again, Mike was a typical BULLY-liked to give it but not to take it.

Saying Tyson showed no heart issues in 40 fights etc makes no sense, his 1st 28 or so where easy, then Berbick who was hardly scary, smith lost 5 of 24 fights, Thomas, Tucker, Holmes a past it great, Tubbs, Spinks a middleweight moved to light heavy then a few fights at heavy was good overall and then Douglas, we may know all there names but nobody there was any sort of challenge.

i'd rate Tyson as a 6-10 for heart.

I don't think I said that you said that Bruno was better. I was questioning why you seem, with a degree of confidence, to think that Bruno could have beaten him, had Bruno been not terrified. That is what you said. I am being very precise in saying or stating what you said.

I see no evidence at all, at all. You want to hang on that ONE shot, and that is all it was. Several seconds? Ok, lets us say it was, again, he was pretty quick to recover. I didn't see several seconds where Mike was in any bad way.

I gave examples of a fighters being in trouble, and Mike was not remotely close to these examples, surely you see this.

Ali was every bit as shaken in rd 2 vs. Shavers. Do we diss him for this? Even worse shaken in 1963 vs, Copper. Aged similarly to Mike who was 23 in 1989.

This is my point. The excuses made for Tyson winning are just far too harsh, and unfair.

He wins, and it's because the BEST men at that time on earth happened to be bums Or, they were too scared, and had they not been scared, they could have won. This to me is just madness.

tryingmybestt

walshb.......whats your opinion of tyson's heart?

do you think he had an A1 heart, similar to ali or frazier?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

He wins, and it's because the BEST men at that time on earth happened to be bums Or, they were too scared, and had they not been scared, they could have won. This to me is just madness.

Well funny enough thats what everyone used to say, that mike won before he got in the ring-many opponents just did not turn up v Mike and looked like they would rather not be there, there is no doubt pshycology played its part in the 1st part of his career, this was gone after Buster Douglas showed the world he was beatable

He fought in a very poor Era for heavyweight Boxing, his 2nd career he fought better opposition and lost, Big george was out for 10 years between 77 and 87 and still won the world title v Moorer-not saying that Moorer was amazing so let's not distarct the debate here, my point is this 2nd carreer happens to coincide with Tyson fighting better fighters, so maybe he just wasn't as good as people thought.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

walshb.......whats your opinion of tyson's heart?

do you think he had an A1 heart, similar to ali or frazier?

My opinion is not as high as yours I think.

Didn't you rate it a 9/10? On a scale 1-10, ooh, 8-8.5 I would say. More than enough for me to NOT label him as a fighter who had no heart.
I would say he had plenty of it. He showed that to me in the vast majority of his bouts.

I answered you already in relation to Ali and Frazier. I said that theirs IMO was more solid, dependable. Again, that is just a view, I am not saying it's the right view.

The whole question is open to debate, subjective and needs deep analysis.