"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

markpb · 11-01-2012 6:07pm

ixoy wrote: »

Any particular reason there's a minimum of 7 days between Auto Top Ups (3.4 (f))? Surely it can be whenever required?

Risk limitation presumably. If the buses can automatically apply credit to your card but Leap do not get the money from your bank or card until after the fact, you could make journeys using credit that isn't available in your account.

el flaco · 11-01-2012 6:29pm

bk wrote: »

Even for LUAS and DART users it is barely a benefit, all LUAS and DART stations have ticket machines which you will be able to top up at anyway.
At best it means you can top-up the night before, rather then spending 60 seconds at the ticket machine the next day. Hardly worth it given the confusion it seems to cause.

It is still a benefit though. I've never used a Luas/IR ticket machine for topping up before so I don't know if you can use a credit card in one, but if not, then you'd have to have cash with you when you are topping up at the machine, plus there might be a queue. It works for Luas and Rail, which is surely better than nothing?
As markpb, noelfirl and silverlingok have said, people are getting bent way out of shape about this.

bk · 11-01-2012 6:57pm

el flaco wrote: »

It is still a benefit though. I've never used a Luas/IR ticket machine for topping up before so I don't know if you can use a credit card in one, but if not, then you'd have to have cash with you when you are topping up at the machine, plus there might be a queue. It works for Luas and Rail, which is surely better than nothing?

Yes they do take Credit and Debit cards and Laser. So loads of ways to pay and thus no real benefit to online topup.

el flaco wrote: »

As markpb, noelfirl and silverlingok have said, people are getting bent way out of shape about this.

If you aren't interested then why are you bothering to read and comment on this. People are entitled to get "bent out of shape" as you put it about whatever they like.

Personally I'm commenting about this because I want the leap project to be as successful as it can be. But so far I'm seeing them make many mistakes with this project which can sully it in peoples minds, even if these issues are eventually fixed.

n97 mini · 11-01-2012 7:42pm

I know the Leap validator on the bus is not on-line, but is some other system on the bus on-line, i.e. the one that tells the RTPI the bus's location?

What sort of connection is this, is it 3G, TETRA...?

Aard · 11-01-2012 8:44pm

@Markpb

My comment was about bus users using the online top-up facility. To me, it seems a bit silly topping up online, then going down to Centra to activate/collect it. Sure I might as well just go down to Centra in the first place.

Let me emphasise that I am not against the online top-up in general, which I think is great for Luas and Dart users. Nor am I against the Leap card (maybe I wasn't specific about referring to the online topup above). Nor, as somebody else alluded to, am I against public transport in general.

I just want the whole thing to work as smoothly as possible. Having people top up online then trying to use the bus without collecting the credit will make people doubt the project. People, in general, don't know the ins and outs of things. The process needs to be as simple as possible. As I suggested above, showing a little warning that bus-only users would have to collect their credit from a payzone anyway would avoid people getting up in arms.

Carawaystick · 11-01-2012 10:31pm

bk wrote: »

No one is suggesting that the LEAP card isn't good.

I think you'll find I and others are suggesting the leap card isn't good. Bus drivers have given info about how it's unnecessarily slow, there is a lack of audio feedback and it costs much more than the existing bus ticketing systems.

The online top-up shambles is another non-good feature

The non transfer of credit from luas cards to leap cards is poor

The time limit of 90 mins causing passengers to be over charged and then the buck passing by the nta and IÉ is poor

the overcharging of bus passengers is poor

the price and delay for a replacement for cash system is poor.

Nermal · 11-01-2012 11:11pm

bk wrote: »

It looks like they are going to use the same method as London Bus which is very clever.

1) You apply online for automatic top-ups (enter bank details etc.)
2) To activate the automatic top-ups you have to bring it to a LUAS/Payzone/Irish Rail validator to activate. This validator basically sets a flag on your leap card saying automatic top-ups are applied. This only needs to be done once, the very first time.
3) Now every time you validate on the bus, it sees the flag and if it is set and you balance goes below x amount, the dublin bus validator adds y credit to your leap card.
4) At the end of the day the bus returns to the depot and your top-up is recorded in the central system and the cost deducted via direct debit.

Note this doesn't require the Dublin Bus validators to have an online connection to work.

It is unfortunate that auto-tops weren't enabled from the start. One off tops really aren't very useful and seem to only be causing confusion. I'm not sure I would have even bothered with enabling one off top-ups, given their limitations.

In particular it would have been great if auto-tops were available from day one and that you could have ordered leap cards with it enabled by default.

If the top-up via direct debit fails, the bus validator has already topped me up. How do they sort that in London?

L1011 · 11-01-2012 11:24pm

Nermal wrote: »

If the top-up via direct debit fails, the bus validator has already topped me up. How do they sort that in London?

From memory they withdraw the credit via the same system, insist you pay cash at the next boarding and send you a nastygram for the 1.80 or whatever you owe.

markpb · 12-01-2012 9:50am

Aard wrote: »

As I suggested above, showing a little warning that bus-only users would have to collect their credit from a payzone anyway would avoid people getting up in arms.

I totally agree with the rest of your post, online topup isn't a great facility for bus users but the warning you want is already there - before you purchase any topup online, it asks you where you want to collect it. Ok, it's not spelling it out but at least you know before you buy. Of course by then you've already bought the card but it can be returned and your credit and deposit refunded (I think).

el flaco · 12-01-2012 10:16am

bk wrote: »

Yes they do take Credit and Debit cards and Laser. So loads of ways to pay and thus no real benefit to online topup.

Ok well that's fair enough. Although it still doesn't account for the fact that currently you can't top up at all at an IR machine meaning there is a very real benefit to IR customers at the moment. And as I said in my post, there can be queues at the ticket machines in the mornings anyway. Zero wait time is better than any wait time, particularly with trains as they don't come along every few minutes like the Luas.
The potential 48 hour wait for top-up is messy though. Hard to know where you stand with that?

bk wrote: »

If you aren't interested then why are you bothering to read and comment on this.

Don't know what led to this perception? I am interested.

Genghis · 12-01-2012 11:02am

My observations on using the leap card system. I appreciate these may well be 'future' or 'near-future' enhancements, but after 12 years in development, they should really be there now. Strikes me that there was some ‘political’ reason to push something half-cocked out and say it was launched in 2011, rather than wait for a few months and launch in 2012.

1. Multiple cards / one wallet
I have an annual commuter smartcard from Irish Rail and a Leap card in my wallet. If I approach the gate at Heuston and flash the wallet, presumably there is a 50:50 chance that my Leap card will open the gate and charge me the maximum deduction of €4.30. Expensive risk.

2. Online top-up
I fully understand why this is designed as it is, but completely fail to understand why auto top-up was not enabled at launch. In fact I fail to see why they did not ONLY offer online top-up via auto top-up.

3. Interoperability
Should be allowed travel bewtween modes from the start. Staggering to think that this key deliverable is entirely missed.

4. Driver interaction (buses)
Dublin Bus spends the best part of 25 years encouraging passengers to avoid interaction with the driver, and then adopts a system that forces the majority of passengers back to the driver. Seems completely non-sensical, and a good example of function following form.

So what do I like about Leap? Well, as long as my card is topped up I don’t need to have change to use the bus, and there is a very slight saving on the fare.

Dravokivich · 12-01-2012 11:18am

Genghis wrote: »

1. Multiple cards / one wallet
I have an annual commuter smartcard from Irish Rail and a Leap card in my wallet. If I approach the gate at Heuston and flash the wallet, presumably there is a 50:50 chance that my Leap card will open the gate and charge me the maximum deduction of €4.30. Expensive risk.

How is the leapcard meant to know what it's next to when it needs power from the validator?

robd · 12-01-2012 11:34am

Genghis wrote: »

My observations on using the leap card system. I appreciate these may well be 'future' or 'near-future' enhancements, but after 12 years in development, they should really be there now. Strikes me that there was some ‘political’ reason to push something half-cocked out and say it was launched in 2011, rather than wait for a few months and launch in 2012.

That was 100% the case. It was shoehorned out the door for political reason. Has already been discussed on this thread.

Auto-top up missing is a major flaw. Unfortunately that's the crux of modern projects where you mitigate risk by implementing on a phased basis. Was already discussed that auto-topup would have been better than online topup.

Interoperability is there. You can travel between modes. What you are talking about is fare capping across multi modes. Even in Oyster system this was introduced 12+ months after basic implementation. Again this is the crux of a phased project.

Dublin bus system of paying at driver is a pile of poo and very Orish.

All we can really hope for is that new features continue to be implemented on a frequent (i.e. every month) basis.

Single operator daily capping is supposed to be introduced for one of the operators imminently. Guessing it's Luas.

Genghis · 12-01-2012 12:30pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

How is the leapcard meant to know what it's next to when it needs power from the validator?

I wouldn't expect it to, and you misunderstand my point.

I am required to use a ticket validator in Heuston that recognises two different smartcards, both of which in are in my wallet. What would have been a better idea is a single smartcard that houses two profiles - my annual travel pass and my leap card. The smart card should then determine which card in my wallet is appropriate to the context, i.e. when I am within date and my travel zone of my annual pass, it opens the barrier, when I am outside the zone and date of my travel pass it deducts credit and then opens the barrier.

As per my original post, this could well be a future development.

starfish12 · 12-01-2012 12:37pm

Tried to top up my leap card in the city centre last night at 8pm to be told that all the leap machines were 'doing an update' was told this by 3 separate stores, so not exactly ideal.

Completely agree on the lack of audio whilst paying, when I got the bus into town the driver told me to 'hurry the f up' (his exact words) as I had obviously stood with the card on the machine for too long, then coming home, the driver roared at me for taking it away too quickly, printed a couple of receipts which I didn't get a copy of and then told me to 'leave it on longer in future.'

As an irregular bus user, it didn't really encourage me to use it in future, esp as it was impossible to top up!

bk · 12-01-2012 1:26pm

Genghis wrote: »

I am required to use a ticket validator in Heuston that recognises two different smartcards, both of which in are in my wallet. What would have been a better idea is a single smartcard that houses two profiles - my annual travel pass and my leap card. The smart card should then determine which card in my wallet is appropriate to the context, i.e. when I am within date and my travel zone of my annual pass, it opens the barrier, when I am outside the zone and date of my travel pass it deducts credit and then opens the barrier.

The ability to load other tickets, Travel 90, weekly, monthly, etc. onto a single Leap card and have leap card figure out which one to use (the cheapest), is coming later this year.

starfish12 wrote: »

Completely agree on the lack of audio whilst paying, when I got the bus into town the driver told me to 'hurry the f up' (his exact words) as I had obviously stood with the card on the machine for too long, then coming home, the driver roared at me for taking it away too quickly, printed a couple of receipts which I didn't get a copy of and then told me to 'leave it on longer in future.'

This sort of dreadful experience on the bus is what I fear will give people a bad impression of Leap.

foggy_lad · 12-01-2012 2:13pm

bk wrote: »

The ability to load other tickets, Travel 90, weekly, monthly, etc. onto a single Leap card and have leap card figure out which one to use (the cheapest), is coming later this.

I doubt this will happen as planned, the leap card has been in the pipeline and "coming soon" for a decade and it has only been produced in its current half hearted mess now. I think it will be several long years of it not working right and people being messed around with upgrades and updates before they are told it will never reach its promised level of service and will remain nothing more than an E-purse.

sham69 · 12-01-2012 2:29pm

I started using one this week only for the bus.
It saves me having to have the exact money for the fare every single day, saves me 20c on my fare and saves my washing machine from getting clogged with bus receipts.

I only go a few stops on the way home so have to place the card on the machine at the driver and state the fare.
He then looks at me, I look at him, he looks at me, I look at him again until he says ok and then I take the card.
It takes a good 10-15 seconds, which is a lot when there are a dozen or so people behind you.
I feel like a bit of a lemon as I never know how long to leave the card on the machine...

markpb · 12-01-2012 2:38pm

Genghis wrote: »

The smart card should then determine which card in my wallet is appropriate to the context, i.e. when I am within date and my travel zone of my annual pass, it opens the barrier, when I am outside the zone and date of my travel pass it deducts credit and then opens the barrier.

As others have said, your annual ticket will be folded into the Leap card in the near future so you won't be carrying two cards. On the other hand, it's not possible for a contactless reader to decide which card to talk to, it's not physically possible. This isn't a limitation of Leap, all contactless cards are the same.

Draupnir · 12-01-2012 2:46pm

I had topped up online last week but the top up hadn't been made available at the LUAS stop the next time I went to board a tram. I validated and the card allowed me to go into a negative balance, so I was still able to take my tram without any issue. I was pleasantly surprised by that fact.

I don't agree with anyone who says that the online top up adds no value, that is an invalid point. I find value in being able to top up at home and not have to behave any differently on my commute in the morning. Topping up online allows me to maintain my routine and avoids me missing any trams while topping up at the main machine which I don't know need to visit.

As a purely LUAS user, the Leap card is a fantastic improvement for me over my previous mode of payment which was cash.

Giblet · 12-01-2012 2:52pm

I'm going back to the weekly card as it works out the same price for 10 journeys a week, and if I need to use it Saturday or miss a tag-off, the leap card will end up costing more. A shame they couldn't integrate the weekly or monthly into the card sooner. Until then, I'll stick to the weekly.

EDIT: I just checked the Luas site and since Jan 1st, it's cheaper to get a weekly card in all cases. Oh well, just cements my decision.

Draupnir · 12-01-2012 2:59pm

How much cheaper is it?

Tarabuses · 12-01-2012 3:01pm

Draupnir wrote: »

I had topped up online last week but the top up hadn't been made available at the LUAS stop the next time I went to board a tram. I validated and the card allowed me to go into a negative balance, so I was still able to take my tram without any issue. I was pleasantly surprised by that fact.

I don't agree with anyone who says that the online top up adds no value, that is an invalid point. I find value in being able to top up at home and not have to behave any differently on my commute in the morning. Topping up online allows me to maintain my routine and avoids me missing any trams while topping up at the main machine which I don't know need to visit.

As a purely LUAS user, the Leap card is a fantastic improvement for me over my previous mode of payment which was cash.

Why hadn't you obtained a LUAS Smartcard previously? You have been paying too much for years.

AlekSmart · 12-01-2012 3:45pm

starfish12 wrote: »

Tried to top up my leap card in the city centre last night at 8pm to be told that all the leap machines were 'doing an update' was told this by 3 separate stores, so not exactly ideal.

Completely agree on the lack of audio whilst paying, when I got the bus into town the driver told me to 'hurry the f up' (his exact words) as I had obviously stood with the card on the machine for too long, then coming home, the driver roared at me for taking it away too quickly, printed a couple of receipts which I didn't get a copy of and then told me to 'leave it on longer in future.'

As an irregular bus user, it didn't really encourage me to use it in future, esp as it was impossible to top up!

Personally,on both counts I'd fire off an e-mail to customercomment@dublinbus.ie with as much detail as possible..route,time,direction of travel etc.

The print out would have been your last 5 transactions and is of no use to the Driver at all,I'd suspect this was faffing around for it's own sake on this lad's part.

I'm spending far too much time watching passengers struggling with an interface that is just FAR too complex for comfort.

However I would NEVER adopt such an attitude as neither would most of my colleagues...it's not acceptable Full Stop.

I remain bamboozled by the NTA's les than full comprehension of the Auto-Top-Up dilemma.

It's blindingly obvious tyhat the vast majority of Leap transactions will be Bus based....Ok ?

The same NTA in conjunction with the City Council,The Quality Bus Network Office,The Vatican et al are also in the midst of expanding the RTPI scheme which (SSssshhh....!) features fully functional connectivity to the Bus Network and thence after inserting 50c in the slot to the wonders of the Leap back-office.....

A small Reader-Pad,as in the Luas Taggers on each pole and voila....!

So Ted,we have some 500+ potential LeapCard Top-Up Poles which would at-a-stroke solve this very contentious issue as well as adding functionality to the greater system...

Why is it not being addressed...?

At a guess,the NTA section dealing with RTPI do not,on any regular basis,interact with the NTA section dealing with the ITS programme,who,in turn do not know where the LeapCard office is located or what exactly HP is,except perhaps on their beef n pickle sandwich at lunchtime....

It needs to be remembered that in spite of the grandiose titles of Integrated Ticketing Systems and the like,the opportunity to devise and implement "Integration" as a concept was ignored some 10 years ago at the outset of this little adventure.

This failure of comprehension at the very outset,has left the entire project with several Mount Everests to scale simultaneously,without Oxygen!!!

We need to stop thinking Oyster or Octopus here and most certainly stop looking at the TfL experience simply because the NTA,ITS and the Government looked at it and decided to kick that can far down the road...and we are still kicking it !!

foggy_lad · 12-01-2012 4:00pm

Reading about the auto top up feature which is "coming soon" like most things leap related and i cant help thinking that it will be useless for the purpose most people will want it for because it is so inflexible!

You may pick an amount to top up by either weekly or monthly afaik and that is it! you are not allowed change that amount or the frequency ever!

If you auto top up by €10 weekly and your commuting needs change you are not allowed to change your top up amount ever!

What cretins thought this up?

markpb · 12-01-2012 4:06pm

Giblet wrote: »

I'm going back to the weekly card as it works out the same price for 10 journeys a week, and if I need to use it Saturday or miss a tag-off, the leap card will end up costing more. A shame they couldn't integrate the weekly or monthly into the card sooner. Until then, I'll stick to the weekly.

The current card is a cash carrying card. It's not a replacement for daily, weekly, monthly, annual or 90 minute tickets. It's a way of putting cash on a card so you don't have to carry exact change for every bus trip.

Later on, you'll be able to put your DB weekly ticket on the Leap card and use cash for the Dart or Luas if you'd like. Later on, you'll be able to make whatever journeys you want and know that Leap will automatically stop charging you when you reach the same price as a weekly ticket.

sham69 wrote: »

He then looks at me, I look at him, he looks at me, I look at him again until he says ok and then I take the card. I feel like a bit of a lemon as I never know how long to leave the card on the machine...

There's no way you could have known this but when you put the card down, it displays your balance on a single line. When the driver applies the ticket to your card, the display changes to show (I think) the amount deducted and your new balance (taking up two lines). When you see that, it's safe to remove your card.

Giblet · 12-01-2012 4:46pm

Draupnir wrote: »

How much cheaper is it?

Weekly is 16:40 for 2 zones on green,
2 zones on green * 10 (2 trips a day) = 17.50

Seaswimmer · 12-01-2012 5:50pm

Just to advise users that if you top up online and then dont use your card for 7 days then your credit card gets refunded with the top up. I know this is an infrequent occurence but it may catch some people out...

starviewadams · 12-01-2012 6:00pm

Would be handy if DB or NTA put up some instructional videos on Youtube or the Leap site of how to use the card on the bus,I'm getting fed up of using my card already because half the time I don't even know if my transaction at the right hand validator has gone through and I'm left standing there like a fecking eejit,usually the bus driver just confusedly waves me on.

OldNotWIse · 12-01-2012 6:08pm

Got the 150 the other day, which supposedly has max fare of 2.15 (1.90 with leap). Validated my card and was charged 2.40. Queried it with driver and he said its set at maximum fare (I naiively assumed "maximum fare" meant maximum fare for that bus) How cna they justify charging more than maximum fare for a particular route?

Will be sticking to the 19euro ten journey tickets from now on, and just using leap for the luas (who seem to have got it right)

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Comments