"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Aard · 10-01-2012 7:18pm

No. Deposit cannot be used as credit, as such. However, if you have say €0.10 on your card, and your trip costs €2.40, your balance will be -€2.30. If you top up by €10, you'll have €7.70 credit.

Deposit is refundable if you wish to return the card, I believe.

L1011 · 10-01-2012 7:23pm

There's an interesting set of titles leapcard.ie allows you to register with:

"Mr"
"Mrs"
"Ms"
"Sir"

That's it.

Carawaystick · 10-01-2012 8:56pm

markpb wrote: »

Secondly, Leap have no control over the fares - they're still decided by each operator.

There was me thinking leap is the NTA.

The NTA set the fares, as the pt operators all wanted to increase them by more than the NTA allowed them to.

carlaboi · 10-01-2012 9:18pm

Hi

Can someone please explain why is it that if you want to top up your card online that you then have to collect it from a load location?? Why cant I top it up online?

-Chris- · 10-01-2012 9:20pm

That's been answered about 20 times in this thread. Read back a page or two and it'll all make sense.

bk · 10-01-2012 10:00pm

-Chris- wrote: »

That's been answered about 20 times in this thread. Read back a page or two and it'll all make sense.

And it just shows what a badly implemented feature it is. It causes more confusion then it is worth.

It works the same way in London, but it works well in London as most people travel on the London Underground, as the London underground is the primary means of transport. Buses are usually just for short filler trips to and from tube stations.

With Dublin on the other hand, buses are the primary mode of transport, with many people never using LUAS or DART. So the online top up is really a badly thought out feature in Dublin.

They should have implemented the auto-top service first, which will work on buses.

antoinolachtnai · 10-01-2012 10:16pm

bk wrote: »

They should have implemented the auto-top service first, which will work on buses.

I don't think it will work that way either. I can't see how it could work without you at least occasionally going to a shop or online location (shop, luas, DART station or private bus). The problem is that (a) the clearing house needs to realize that you are almost out of credit. If you run below your top-up limit on Monday morning, the clearing house will not know this until Monday night/Tuesday morning. It can then issue the credit, but this will not make its way back to the buses until the next exchange of information between DB and the clearing house, which may not be until Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. If the system decides to wait until the money actually comes in from the direct debit request, it will probably be thursday or Friday by the time the credit is issued. The ticket-issuing device also needs to have enough memory to store the entire whitelist, and I think this may also be an issue.

But I do not know the detailed architecture for the top-up, so I could be wrong.

goingnowhere · 10-01-2012 11:02pm

Thats completely wrong with respect to the logic behind auto topup. The debit of the customers bank account occurs offline after the topup has been done to the card. It will work fine and work instantly on all modes including Dublin Bus.

It will operate the exact same was as in London http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14838.aspx

The T&C's go into significant

3.4 Auto Top-Up - Coming Soon

(a) The terms and conditions in this section 3.4 shall be binding on any Leap Card customer who avails of the Auto Top-Up facility (when introduced).

(b) Registered and Personalised Leap Card customers can apply for the Auto Top-Up facility by completing the online application form available at www.leapcard.ie. As part of the application process the Leap Card customer must nominate an account with an accepted payment source (as per sub-section (h) below) from which Auto Top-Ups can be debited (the “Account”).

(c) The Leap Card customer is responsible for ensuring that the Account information is accurate and up to date and that his/her Account is at all times valid and contains sufficient funds or credit in order to meet deductions by the Authority in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. Leap Card customers can update their Account information Online. Leap Card customers shall inform Leap Card Customer Care immediately of any closure or termination of the Account.

(d) The Authority will set a minimum Travel Credit balance (the “threshold”) from time to time. With Auto Top-Up, when a Leap Card customer’s Travel Credit balance falls below the threshold, the Leap Card will be automatically reloaded with Leap Card customer’s pre-selected reload value (the “reload value”), and simultaneously an instruction will automatically be sent to debit the reload value from the Account. The initial threshold is set at €15.00.

(e) During the application for Auto Top-Up, Leap Card customers may designate a reload value (e.g. €20.00, €30.00, €40.00 or €50.00). The Leap Card customer may not change the reload value once Auto Top-Up has been enabled.

(f) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein contained, the Leap Card customer agrees that a minimum period of 7 days must elapse between each Auto Top-Up. The Authority shall not be obliged to top-up an Auto Top-Up enabled Leap Card until after the Leap Card customer’s Account has been successfully debited for any previous Auto Top-Ups.

(g) The Leap Card customer’s online account will display details of the Auto Top-Up amounts that the Leap Card customer has chosen.

(h) Auto Top-Up may only be paid for via direct debit payments using the Leap Card customer’s designated current account; Credit card payments will not be accepted as a payment method for Auto Top-Up.

(i) Leap Card customers may cancel their Auto Top-Up facility Online at any time. The cancellation request only becomes effective when configured on to the Leap Card. Until the Leap Card is configured, the Auto Top-Up remains in place and the Authority will not be liable for any Auto Top-Up prior to configuration. The Leap Card customer will nominate online where the Leap Card will be taken for configuration. Note that currently Leap Card customers are not able to nominate the Validators on Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann for configuration. The Authority will endeavour to ensure that the cancellation request will be available for configuration on to the Leap Card as soon as possible; however, it cannot guarantee that the request will be available sooner than 48 hours after cancellation.

(j) If an Auto Top-Up instruction for a Leap Card is rejected by a Leap Card customer’s financial institution, the Authority reserves the right to do any or all of the following:

i. Recover from the Leap Card customer the amount of any rejected transaction plus all costs incurred (including legal costs on a full indemnity basis) by the Authority for the recovery of any such amounts.

ii. Withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility from the Leap Card customer.

iii. Suspend the use of the Leap Card for such period as may be determined by the Authority.

iv. Cancel the Leap Card.

v. Disqualify the Leap Card customer from applying for any new Auto Top-Up facility for such length of time as may be determined to be appropriate by the Authority.

vi. Deduct or set-off any monies owing to the Authority from the remaining value and any Deposit in respect of the Leap Card.

(k) The Authority reserves the right to withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility for all Leap Card customers at its discretion or modify either the reload value or the threshold value.

https://www.leapcard.ie/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

Delta2113 · 11-01-2012 12:32am

Can you pay for a "companion" on the Nitelink and if so must you use the drivers validator?

Aard · 11-01-2012 12:39am

I don't see why not, but that's like €10 in one go! Afaik, you have to get it from the driver's side.

Delta2113 · 11-01-2012 12:54am

And you would get a receipt for €5 (companion)?

Mr Simpson · 11-01-2012 1:12am

Quick question, if I was to buy a companions ticket with leap, would they pay leap rates or cash rates?

wyrn · 11-01-2012 1:21am

Finally took the plunge and bought one. Seemed to work fine on the bus. I registered it (why oh why do we need a pin and a password? As for those security questions...) and I checked my history. I wanted to check that I was charged for the correct amount (as some people have complained that they were charged more).

Anyway, I saw that my trip home wasn't accounted for, is there a delay in your history updating or is it more likely that the card wasn't charged? I remember looking at €10.00 written on the machine but the driver told me that it had gone through and I was charged €1.95. My account just shows that I still have a balance of €10.

Delta2113 · 11-01-2012 1:23am

mmcn90 wrote: »

Quick question, if I was to buy a companions ticket with leap, would they pay leap rates or cash rates?

Leap rate.

dublinman1990 · 11-01-2012 1:26am

Aard wrote: »

I don't see why not, but that's like €10 in one go! Afaik, you have to get it from the driver's side.

But, it say's here from leap card website.

On Airlink and Nitelink services you can Touch On at the right hand side validator where the appropriate default fare will be deducted for that service.

Delta2113 · 11-01-2012 1:35am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

But, it say's here from leap card website.

On Airlink and Nitelink services you can Touch On at the right hand side validator where the appropriate default fare will be deducted for that service.

- if allowed to pay for a companion on Nitelink or Airlink, doing it this way wont give you a receipt for your "companion".

goingnowhere · 11-01-2012 2:14am

Delta2113 wrote: »

Can you pay for a "companion" on the Nitelink and if so must you use the drivers validator?

You must always use the drivers machine when you need a second or third ticket, where applicable the special 5 euro nitelink, 6 euro airlink fares are available from both driver and right side reader.

Victor · 11-01-2012 8:20am

keano_afc wrote: »

If I get on the bus and use the machine on the right to "touch-on" how much am I automatically charged?

€2.40 (€2.65 cash). However, if the fare is different, you need to go to the driver. There are some special fares like Xpresso, outer suburban, etc. where this is different. http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Revised-Cash-Fares-2012/

wyrn wrote: »

Anyway, I saw that my trip home wasn't accounted for, is there a delay in your history updating or is it more likely that the card wasn't charged? I remember looking at €10.00 written on the machine but the driver told me that it had gone through and I was charged €1.95. My account just shows that I still have a balance of €10.

The back office won't know about your transaction until the bus returns to base and downloads the information. Then the update is done over night.

Delta2113 wrote: »

Can you pay for a "companion" on the Nitelink and if so must you use the drivers validator?

In such a situation you must use the driver's validator. Using the right hand validator twice won't work as each card will only work once in every few minutes.

K09 · 11-01-2012 10:49am

foggy_lad wrote: »

You can buy the credit online but ATM you must go to a shop or luas machine or tag on at an Irish rail machine for that credit to be applied to your card.

Would it not be much simpler to allow top-up online? I thought it would be possible especially when they ask to register the card.

robd · 11-01-2012 12:30pm

K09 wrote: »

Would it not be much simpler to allow top-up online? I thought it would be possible especially when they ask to register the card.

You've largely missed the point of the question. You can top up online already, but as it is a smart card it stores and manages the balance (not the central system) so that it can work in offline locations such as on a bus. Thus to have credit applied to card from an online topup you have to use a live (online connected) terminal such as a Luas Ticket Machine or and Irish Rail gate.

It would have been better if they put the effort into Auto Topup rather than this. Unfortunately they didn't so most users are really waiting for auto direct debit topup.

n97 mini · 11-01-2012 2:54pm

I got the card (online) to use the bus. I had hoped I could just top online and go.

But no, after I bought the credit I have to tag on at the train station (and then use the train, even tho I only plan to use the bus with the Leap card), at a Luas stop (not possible, too far away) or drive over to the other side of town to the Leap agent and use their machine.

Aaarrgh! What muppet came up with this shit!

Stevek101 · 11-01-2012 2:59pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I got the card (online) to use the bus. I had hoped I could just top online and go.

But no, after I bought the credit I have to tag on at the train station (and then use the train, even tho I only plan to use the bus with the Leap card), at a Luas stop (not possible, too far away) or drive over to the other side of town to the Leap agent and use their machine.

Aaarrgh! What muppet came up with this shit!

Its the same system as in London.

bk · 11-01-2012 3:09pm

n97 mini wrote: »

But no, after I bought the credit I have to tag on at the train station (and then use the train, even tho I only plan to use the bus with the Leap card), at a Luas stop (not possible, too far away) or drive over to the other side of town to the Leap agent and use their machine.

Aaarrgh! What muppet came up with this shit!

Agreed, but I'd be surprised if a local shop doesn't support Leap Cards? Most shops with payzone seem to have it.

I also assume that in February when the Irish Rail Ticket Vending Machines get Leap support, that you will be able to do it there without boarding a train.

Everyone I've talked to about Leap is really confused by the online top up. I don't think they should have implemented it at all, it seems more trouble then it is worth. After all you can top up at all Luas stops, shops, and eventually DART ticket machines, so really there is literally almost no benefit to online top up for anyone.

I believe they should close this part of the service temporarily. Focus on implementing the auto-top feature and re-enable online-top at a future point.

markpb · 11-01-2012 4:10pm

bk wrote: »

I believe they should close this part of the service temporarily. Focus on implementing the auto-top feature and re-enable online-top at a future point.

The online service is there and it works, albeit not in a user-friendly sort of way. What advantage would there be to closing it?

Aard · 11-01-2012 4:17pm

Maybe just put in a warning that it offers no convenience to those who only take the bus, that it's only suitable for Luas/Dart/Suburban customers.

markpb · 11-01-2012 4:20pm

Aard wrote: »

Maybe just put in a warning that it offers no convenience to those who only take the bus, that it's only suitable for Luas/Dart/Suburban customers.

What about people who live or work near a Payzone outlet and are only occasional bus users? I fall into this myself and it's much handier to put €10/€20 on the card than have to worry about collecting the required amount of coppers needed for any bus trip that I have to make. I also don't have to worry about taking a half day to visit number 59 and get my change back.

IMHO people are going overboard. No, it's not perfect but it was only launched a few weeks ago and only one feature set is active right now. All the things that will make it much better are in the pipeline. Some of them are (according to RUI) very close to being launched, others are farther away. If anyone expected the card to launch, fully completed, I think they need to take a look at how big projects are always delivered.

noelfirl · 11-01-2012 4:28pm

When you top up online, the process requires you to elect a collection point, be it Luas, DART or Payzone network. I'm not sure how the nature of that specific requirement can leave people in a position to be *that* confused upon completing the transaction (and I presume the choose a collection point comes before the transaction is completed, so can be backed out if if you suddenly become aware it's inconvenient?). There's no reason to shut down the online top up at all. For people who get up in the morning and go to a rail station or Luas stop it should work perfectly fine. The real issues are to get the online topup sent out for collection ASAP and to have all Payzone shops integrated into the system.

SilverLiningOK · 11-01-2012 5:32pm

markpb wrote: »

What about people who live or work near a Payzone outlet and are only occasional bus users? I fall into this myself and it's much handier to put €10/€20 on the card than have to worry about collecting the required amount of coppers needed for any bus trip that I have to make. I also don't have to worry about taking a half day to visit number 59 and get my change back.

IMHO people are going overboard. No, it's not perfect but it was only launched a few weeks ago and only one feature set is active right now. All the things that will make it much better are in the pipeline. Some of them are (according to RUI) very close to being launched, others are farther away. If anyone expected the card to launch, fully completed, I think they need to take a look at how big projects are always delivered.

Yes, people online here and elsewhere seem to be going completely overboard. For occasional and frequent bus users is quite beneficial for the reason that you say. Are the posters with gripes really only using this an opportunity to have a go at public transport. Deep down they would be happier in their cars ?

Large IT based projects such as this have to be rolled out on a phased basis to iron out issues as they occur. If all the functionality was up from day one, the level of support resources required would be unmanageable.

Some of the complaints seem to arise from not understanding how the system is supposed to work. The online top-up ritual is confusing for some. People think it should work like buying credit for their mobile. That is not the case, as the Leap Card unlike your phone is only online when in contact with a touch pad. There is no other way the card can be updated. So the simplest method for some people is to make a cash purchase of credit from payzone agents. It just involves being a little prepared.

Over all the system is surely welcome over what was there already. Surely a major benefit is cheaper fares after the recent increases on the buses. If all goes well, by the end of the year even the begrudgers will love their Leap Card by the end of the year, when more functionality will be available.

ixoy · 11-01-2012 5:40pm

Any particular reason there's a minimum of 7 days between Auto Top Ups (3.4 (f))? Surely it can be whenever required?

bk · 11-01-2012 6:03pm

markpb wrote: »

What about people who live or work near a Payzone outlet and are only occasional bus users? I fall into this myself and it's much handier to put €10/€20 on the card than have to worry about collecting the required amount of coppers needed for any bus trip that I have to make. I also don't have to worry about taking a half day to visit number 59 and get my change back.

No one is suggesting that the LEAP card isn't good.

Just that the online topup feature of the LEAP card is pretty pointless and only causing confusion.

If you have to go to a payzone shop anyway, isn't easier to just give the chap at the payzone shop a €20 note or your credit/laser card and top up there? Then having to register your card online (a painful experience in itself), add your credit card details online and having to go to the same payzone outlet anyway?

Exactly what benefit does it add?

Even for LUAS and DART users it is barely a benefit, all LUAS and DART stations have ticket machines which you will be able to top up at anyway.
At best it means you can top-up the night before, rather then spending 60 seconds at the ticket machine the next day. Hardly worth it given the confusion it seems to cause.

I agree that major IT projects need to be rolled out in phases (I manage major IT projects myself), I'm just saying that it shows how badly managed the LEAP card project is being managed, that one of the features they rolled out from day one is the least useful and most confusing to users.

Had I managed the project I would roll it out like so:

1) Top up at LUAS/Irish Rail TVM's and payzone shops from day one, no online top up.

Note you still can't currently top up at Irish Rail machines which is a major failure and should have been ready from day one.

2) Next phase add the auto-top feature that will even work on buses.

3) Maybe eventually add the online top-up feature.

Sometimes in IT projects it is a good idea not to include or even remove functionality that isn't adding worth or only confusing users. It takes a really good IT manager to do this. Apple and Google are experts at this, keeping things simple and easy to use.

The online top-up feature strikes me as a perfect example of a feature that adds little value, but lots of confusion and would be better off if it hadn't been included.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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