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(UK) Stephen Lawrence murder - Dobson & Norris Guilty

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Comments

  • #242
    Father Damo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    bruschi wrote: »
    arse? why because you say so. You should be a solicitor so with those kind of great rebuttals. It was forensic evidence rpesented in court. if it was flimsy it would have been thrown out. why do you say its 'arse'?

    It is highly unreliable. It is highly suspect after all these years in a much criticised case. And more than likely wont last an appeal. I find it unconceiveable that in a case where the pressure has been on the police and CPS for 20 years to get a result that people wouldnt entertain the idea of some type of fix. Again, they more than likely were involved, but the method by which they were convicted is highly suspect, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that.
    Please tell me what "acting gay" is exactly

    Thats your best retort? Jesus wept. My point was attending 3rd level doesnt make you automatically enlightened.


  • #243
    policarp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,680 ✭✭✭policarp


    There is at least three more suspects in this crime.
    Try them.


  • #244
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    policarp wrote: »
    There is at least three more suspects in this crime.
    Try them.

    that's the tactic

    Norris (a mentally unstable drug user) is in jail, with Dobson (the only one with a college education).
    They won't want to go down for the whole wrap.

    They will sing, just give it time ;)*


    *There's a crisp 50 riding on that if anyone fancies a flutter ?


  • #245
    policarp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,680 ✭✭✭policarp


    marcsignal wrote: »
    ;)*


    *There's a crisp 50 riding on that if anyone fancies a flutter ?
    What's the odds?
    If they aren't guilty they're complicit,
    if you can believe the media. . .


  • #246
    Father Damo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    policarp wrote: »
    What's the odds?
    If they aren't guilty they're complicit,
    if you can believe the media. . .

    Whcih is exactly the problem here. The story has been so long out there in the media 12 semi literate monekys will give you a guilty verdict on any half baked DNA story you gave them. Try putting Stephen Hawking, Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens on the jury and give them the rubbish that was showed at this trial. They would be of the opinion of that yes, they did it, but the evidence aint a full cigar. There should be a certain test of academic capability and general IQ for this type of high profile trial IMO.

    Seriously- how intelligent are the British public? I know a massive amount of Brits in Australia and I can tell you for a fact most of the females havent a clue what the name of their own prime minister is, let alone get around the x and ys of DNA evidence. More Brits in their teens/ 20s voted in the 2001 Big Brother final than voted in that years general election (and if you broke that into how many British women voted in which, Id reckon you would see a shocker. Honestly, what lad would ever vote ion a BB final). Yet most of them in that age group could tell me who came 3rd place in X Factor 2006 or Big Brothers winner in 2004, in all likelihood. Honestly, when it comes to news and current affairs, never mind the complexities of DNA testing, the British public should not be trusted to sit on a jury in a media exposed case without prior intelligence vetting.


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  • #247
    Tipsy McSwagger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,077 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    I believe they did it but there is definitely a case of 'of course they did it just look at them' from the British public rather than convicting them on the evidence. The jury convicted them mainly on Norris disastrous testimony on the stand.


  • #248
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    policarp wrote: »
    There is at least three more suspects in this crime.
    Try them.

    They already have been tried, just as Norris and Dobson had already been tried. And, like Norris and Dobson, they were found not guilty of the crime.

    And, before 2003, Norris and Dobson wouldn't have been tried again because England and Wales had a law known as double jeopardy, which stated that no person can be tried for the same crime twice.


  • #249
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    marcsignal wrote: »
    This must be such a relief for Stephen Lawrence's parents after 19 years...



    Article

    ..... I'm glad justice has finally caught up with these two.
    Albiet late, better late than never.

    Norris and Dobson are murderers. Its a mute point.
    But Stephen Lawrence was no angel either. You wont get that side of the story in the tabloid media though, as its not as salacious as a white on black racist murder story.
    Why did it take 18 years for the Metropolitan Police to discover a victims blood on a murderers jacket?
    I will tell you why. There was a culture of institutionalised racism in the Met Police under Sir Paul Condon (now Lord Condon). I lived in London in the 1990's, and the Met Police were definitely prejudiced against blacks. There was a lot of stop and search going on. Blacks were being stopped all the time, and whites were going unsearched.
    Sir Ian Blair made great efforts to eradicate the institutionalised racism in the Met Police when he took over. But the damage was done, and he was left with the legacy of unsolved crimes such as the Lawrence murder.
    The thing is, Stephen Lawrence was known to the Met Police already, and it he hadn't been murdered by Norris and Dobson; he would have been a target by other members of his community. Stephen Lawrence was a known face who was making a name for himself for the wrong reasons.
    I believe he got what he deserved. The Met Police did too at the time, and that is why they were happy to leave the murder unsolved.


  • #250
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    Also, what is a mystery to me is why Labour's odious Shadow Health Secretary Diane Abbott is still in her job as an MP after her latest in a long life of racist, anti-white comments stretching back many years to at least her "blonde-haired, blue eyed Finnish nurses" comments back in 1996.

    Diane Abbot, the black Labour MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, has caused uproar after making racist comments against white people on Twitter in which she stated that white people "love to divide and rule."

    The comments provoked a backlash from fellow Twitter users, who demanded she apologise for her racists comments and to stand down.

    But, despite getting a dressing down from her boss Ed Miliband, Abbott is still in her job and the Labour party has been very quiet on the issue. It makes me wonder what would have happened if it was a white Tory MP who had made such comments against black people. The whole of the Labour Party would have been on him like a pack of rabid dogs demanding him to step down. However, it seem that black people making racist comments about white people are treated more leniently.

    And now new comments that Abbott has made on Twitter have shown how hypocritical she is. Just days after making racist comments herself, she has posted new comments on Twitter in which she calls London taxi drivers racist!

    She tweeted: "Dubious of black people claiming they've never experienced racism. Ever tried hailing a taxi I always wonder?"
    Sun cabbie Grant Davies — who interviewed Ms Abbott in the back of his cab during the Labour leadership contest — said: "She's guilty of peddling outdated racial stereotypes.

    "There are thousands of London cabbies from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. They just reflect the society we live in.

    "Ed Miliband should show guts and sack her. She's shown herself to be completely incompetent. How can anyone have confidence in her?"

    His anger was echoed by Steve McNamara, spokesman for the London Taxi Drivers' Association.

    He said: "Ed Miliband needs to ask himself, is he a man or a mouse? He needs to get rid of her.

    "I really don't know why he won't sack her. Maybe he's just too weak to take her on.

    "These comments are an insult to thousands of taxi drivers but she seems to just get away with it."

    Mr McNamara said he had picked up Ms Abbott in his cab and she had seemed "a very nice lady".

    Labour refused last night to condemn her latest outburst.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4044660/Diane-Abbott-in-new-row-after-racist-cabbies-slur.html

    Today's Twitter storm is the latest in a number of blunders made by the MP who positioned herself as an anti-racism campaigner, once claiming that Britain had 'invented racism'.

    In 2010 Abbott called David Cameron and Nick Clegg 'two posh white boys', sparking claims of racism on the BBC's internet message boards. One wrote: 'I am sure that if a posh white person sat on this programme and mentioned a colour comment like that, there would be uproar.'

    The same year, she was criticised over remarks she made on BBC's This Week over her decision to send her son James to a private school. Andrew Neil quoted her saying that 'West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children'.

    Mr Neil responded by asking: 'So black mums love their kids more than white mums, do they?'

    Furious Abbott said: 'I have said everything I am going to say about where I send my son to school.'

    In 1996, Abbott faced accusations of racism suggesting that the 'blonde blue-eyed Finnish girls' working in her local hospital were unsuitable as nurses because they had 'never met a black person before'.The secretary of the all-party Finland group of MPs, Conservative Ian Bruce responded by accusing her of "using racial stereotypes", adding: "All Scandinavian countries have people from African and Caribbean countries living there. It shows ignorance to make such remarks."

    Abbott has positioned herself as an anti-racism campaigner and in 1988 claimed that Britain had 'invented racism'.

    The latest row follows a previous race controversy on the same show, fronted by Andrew Neil, last year, after he compared Abbott to a chocolate HobNob biscuit.



    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083252/Diane-Abbott-sparks-ANOTHER-Twitter-race-row-branding-taxi-drivers-racist.html#ixzz1im3xQrn4


  • #251
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    Johnny Foreigner wrote: »
    Why did it take 18 years for the Metropolitan Police to discover a victims blood on a murderers jacket?

    Because that tiny speck of blood wasn't on Norris or Dobson's jacket to start off with. The jacket only became contaminated with Lawrence's blood and hairs after it was stored right next to Lawrence's clothing in a storeroom. This was something that the defence mentioned during the trial, calling it shoddy and unprofessional, but I think it was just ignored. The reason why it took 18 years to jail Norris and Dobson over the crime was because they didn't do it.
    he would have been a target by other members of his community. Stephen Lawrence was a known face who was making a name for himself for the wrong reasons.

    I believe Lawrence was murdered by a rival gang member.


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  • #252
    desertcircus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Batsy wrote: »
    Johnny Foreigner wrote: »
    Why did it take 18 years for the Metropolitan Police to discover a victims blood on a murderers jacket?

    Because that tiny speck of blood wasn't on Norris or Dobson's jacket to start off with. The jacket only became contaminated with Lawrence's blood and hairs after it was stored right next to Lawrence's clothing in a storeroom. This was something that the defence mentioned during the trial, calling it shoddy and unprofessional, but I think it was just ignored. The reason why it took 18 years to jail Norris and Dobson over the crime was because they didn't do it.
    he would have been a target by other members of his community. Stephen Lawrence was a known face who was making a name for himself for the wrong reasons.

    I believe Lawrence was murdered by a rival gang member.

    Oh, for God's sake.


  • #253
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Johnny Foreigner wrote: »
    Norris and Dobson are murderers. Its a mute point.
    But Stephen Lawrence was no angel either. ........

    You've a source for that?


  • #254
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Batsy wrote: »
    I believe Lawrence was murdered by a rival gang member.
    Welcome back. Here's a quick refresher for you, in case you've forgotten:
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    What evidence (apart from the fact that he was black) do you have for Stephen Lawrence being in a gang?
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    *cough*
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    I'm going to ask you again for any evidence that Stephen Lawrence was involved in gangs.

    Thanks.
    biko wrote: »
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx


  • #255
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx

    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    A black teenager stabbed to death on a London street is more likely to have been a member of a gang and to have been murdered by a rival gang member - who is usually also black - than to have been murdered by a "gang of racist white men."

    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member, so it's reasonable to assume that Lawrence was a gang member killed by a fellow gang member. In fact, the police acknowledged this, too, and initially believed that Lawrence was in a gang and killed by a fellow gang member.


  • #256
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Batsy wrote: »
    ......................


    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.
    ...................

    Not half as "fed up" as we are reading it. Your opinion is not sufficient. Present some evidence from another party (eg some element of the police investigation or inquiry) regarding specifically the Lawrence murder.


  • #257
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Batsy wrote: »
    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    A black teenager stabbed to death on a London street is more likely to have been a member of a gang and to have been murdered by a rival gang member - who is usually also black - than to have been murdered by a "gang of racist white men."

    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member, so it's reasonable to assume that Lawrence was a gang member killed by a fellow gang member. In fact, the police acknowledged this, too, and initially believed that Lawrence was in a gang and killed by a fellow gang member.

    Thankfully police investigations and the subsequent court cases are normally more concerned with evidence rather than just making assumptions based of probability.

    So once again, is there any evidence that implies Lawrence was in a gang, or stabbed by another black youth.

    I will not dispute the fact that he was stabbed by another gang member as clearly he was....in this case a gang of white youths.


  • #258
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Batsy wrote: »
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx



    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    A black teenager stabbed to death on a London street is more likely to have been a member of a gang and to have been murdered by a rival gang member - who is usually also black - than to have been murdered by a "gang of racist white men."

    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member, so it's reasonable to assume that Lawrence was a gang member killed by a fellow gang member. In fact, the police acknowledged this, too, and initially believed that Lawrence was in a gang and killed by a fellow gang member.
    Once again you provide zero evidence to back up your assertion that Stephan Lawrence was part of a gang.

    You just continue to spout the same crap over and over again (also without providing any links to back your statistics up).


  • #259
    desertcircus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Batsy wrote: »
    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    A black teenager stabbed to death on a London street is more likely to have been a member of a gang and to have been murdered by a rival gang member - who is usually also black - than to have been murdered by a "gang of racist white men."

    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member, so it's reasonable to assume that Lawrence was a gang member killed by a fellow gang member. In fact, the police acknowledged this, too, and initially believed that Lawrence was in a gang and killed by a fellow gang member.

    No, it's not reasonable. It's only reasonable if you have no data whatsoever and are looking at pure odds. Once you look at individual cases, the abstract probabilities vanish. There is no evidence he was in a gang. Therefore it's unreasonable to assume he was. Data applying to a broad group tells you little about a specific person. You might as well assume he was really a woman because women are over 50% of the population.


  • #260
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Batsy wrote: »
    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    You're not the only one fed up with your repeating yourself, join the club.:P


  • #261
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,305 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Batsy wrote: »
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx
    Originally Posted by biko viewpost.gif
    Batsy, I need you to find some proof of Lawrence being in a gang and that this was gang related, otherwise it's just you trolling this thread, trying to make it into something it's not. Even if other black youths are in gangs doesn't mean Lawrence was in one.
    Come back when you have said proof. Thx



    I'm fed up of having to repeat myself time and time again.

    A black teenager stabbed to death on a London street is more likely to have been a member of a gang and to have been murdered by a rival gang member - who is usually also black - than to have been murdered by a "gang of racist white men."

    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member, so it's reasonable to assume that Lawrence was a gang member killed by a fellow gang member. In fact, the police acknowledged this, too, and initially believed that Lawrence was in a gang and killed by a fellow gang member.

    No it isn't a reasonable assumption because it lacks evidence.

    It's amazing that you put such store in the evidence for Norris or Dobson and ignore it for Lawrence. Amazing double standard.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • #262
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Aaaand batsy banned.

    Again.


  • #263
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    Some interesting information here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence


  • #264
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    policarp wrote: »
    What's the odds?
    If they aren't guilty they're complicit,
    if you can believe the media. . .

    I'm just speculating that, in time, Dobson and/or Norris will prove to be the thin end of the wedge, the police will use to get at the Acourt Brothers. They are the ones, in my opinion, the police really want to nail.


    Just as regards the case in general, I'm looking at it purely from the point of view as a murder case, period. I'm not interested in whether Stephen Lawerence was black or white, or whether the gang were racists, or gay hairderssers.

    As regards the theory that Lawerence was killed by another black gang member. I don't think it's plausible for the following reason. Would a rival black gang (or members of) be likely to be hanging around Eltham (an area known to be hostile to blacks) at that time of night ? and on the off chance they were going to run into Lawrence ? Not likely in my opinion.

    As regards the gang not speaking about the Lawrence murder on the surveilance tape. There is a suggestion they were tipped off, that they were being watched/listened to. It's also also not unheard of, that a gang involved in a serious crime will agree to wipe it from their collective memory, deliberately, and agree also, never to speak about it again, for any reason. This is what the gang in the Helen Betty Osbourne case did, and were advised to do so by their Lawyer. They were told that 'their silence was their liberty'.

    The suspects stories didn't match either, and in some cases directly contradicted each other.

    That said, I am entirely speculating about a murder, that has similarities to another murder I have read about. That is all.
    I'm not as interested in the 'Race' part of it, as some posters appear to be.


  • #265
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Johnny Foreigner wrote: »
    Some interesting information here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence

    What are you on about?

    Earlier you stated
    Norris and Dobson are murderers. Its a mute point.
    But Stephen Lawrence was no angel either. ........



    Do you have anything to back that up?


  • #266
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Good news that the scumbags are behind bars. His poor parents must have been to hell and back.


  • #267
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Good news that the scumbags are behind bars. His poor parents must have been to hell and back.

    Made even worse by certain muppets, like certain people in this thread, insinuating that he was a gangster, when there's no evidence to suggest that whatsoever.


  • #268
    Father Damo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    Batsy wrote: »


    Almost every black teenager murdered on London's streets today is a gang member killed by a fellow gang member,

    Indeed. Today.

    Probably because in working class areas of London there arent actually many young whites living there any more. Theyve all moved to Essex and such.

    This happened 20 years ago. Seeing as they got so much stick for mishandling a racist murder the police would be delighted if it had turned out to be black lads who did it tbh. But wheres the proof? As woeful as the DNA evidence is the black gang theory has even less weight.


  • #269
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    examining what i've been reading about the suspects, i can't help getting the feeling that stephen lawrences blackness was just extra bad luck. The past record of the gang give me the impression they weren't fussy, as long as there was agro, preferably when their scumbaggery and numbers allowed them the oppertunity to own the room.


  • #270
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    marcsignal wrote: »
    examining what i've been reading about the suspects, i can't help getting the feeling that stephen lawrences blackness was just extra bad luck. The past record of the gang give me the impression they weren't fussy, as long as there was agro, preferably when their scumbaggery and numbers allowed them the oppertunity to own the room.

    Well I agree with what you say about the gang but I reckon Stephen's colour on top of it probably provided the spark for their scummy actions.


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  • #271
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    charlemont wrote: »
    Well I agree with what you say about the gang but I reckon Stephen's colour on top of it probably provided the spark for their scummy actions.

    In the way it made him 'different to them' ?

    yeah i agree


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