Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Blatter · 04-01-2012 05:16AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Yet Hernandez, Valencia, Camolli etc cannot.

According to the FA.

I'm sorry, I didn't know they were up on the relevant charge?

Suarez and his legal team had the authority to challenge the linguistic experts interpretation of Evra's side of the story.

They didn't challenge anything and they accepted their evidence.

How we are still debating this is beyond me.

opr · 04-01-2012 05:22AM

I don't understand how I can explain this from anymore different angles. It seems like a very simple point to me.

Evra version of events - Experts agree it would have been racial.

Suarez what do you think of this ? I didn't say any of that. /END

I do wonder why Liverpool didn't have an independent expert looking at this part of the report. As has been pointed out the two that handled the report seem not even very well versed in a field they are supposed experts.

Opr

cournioni · 04-01-2012 05:24AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

A man who sings about 39 dead football fans at a match talks to me about morals.

You actually couldn't make it up.

All I would like from Liverpool is accountability for their actions, and I am not standing up for someone who is a racist and a convicted attempted murderer and trying to make excuses for it. It is unacceptable.

United's songs are no celebration of the deaths, they are a reminder to Liverpool that they should apologise for their misdemeanors, which they still have not done. They still attempt to brush it under the carpet. The amicizia stunt that your club tried to pull was disgusting to say the least and Juve fans quite rightly turned their backs and gave it the middle finger.

Mr Alan · 04-01-2012 05:25AM

The issue IMO is that the FA simply accepted Evra's version of events as being what happened & I don't feel that their reasons for doing that were justified by appropriate evidence or reasoning, particularly when taking into account the seriousness of the charge.

Here, cornionio or whatever your name is, you're a piece of shit & I'll not be conversing with you anymore. So pipe down like a good lad.

Seaneh · 04-01-2012 05:25AM

Blatter wrote: »

why did he then use the 'tu' version of the verb ser in his testimony for the FA?

You honestly, do not understand what you are talking about, you can't even see the differences between the language used in his statement and the others.

He DOES NOT, in ANY PART of the report, himself, use anything other than his a-language.

All spanish speakers, at times, use "tu", it's the base word for "you". It would be impossible for him to not use the word tu.

However, he never said "por que, tu eres negro" because, that would make no sense to him or anyone in latin america. It would be totally unnatural, the grammar doesn't work.

Seaneh · 04-01-2012 05:28AM

Blatter wrote: »

I'm sorry, I didn't know they were up on the relevant charge?

Suarez and his legal team had the authority to challenge the linguistic experts interpretation of Evra's side of the story.

They didn't challenge anything and they accepted their evidence.

How we are still debating this is beyond me.

They bloody well did challenge it.

They said, quite clearly, that he didn't say it.

He said, if someone said those things, then yes, they would probably be said as a racial slur. They also said, he didn't say it.

I doubt they bothered to get into the linguistical idiocy of it all because they didn't believe that they had to defend themselves against stuff they didn't actually say.

The burden of proof should have been on Evra here, not Suarez.

04-01-2012 05:31AM

Ah Kenny can fúck off with "we know what's not in the report." WHY ISN'T IT IN THE REPORT THEN?! I somehow have trouble believing that Liverpool as a club are withholding information that could absolve Suarez of his crimes. Maybe they were planning on appealing with it but then didn't expect the report to be so tight?

btw cournioni there is a way that you can debate Liverpool actions at Heysel (wouldn't really go too far about Hillsborough though) but an overly aggressive demanding post isn't the way to do it. Ultimately you (probably) don't know any of the people who died or their families so it's they who could look for accountability. You are embarrassing yourself here...

daithijjj · 04-01-2012 05:35AM

Seaneh wrote: »

The linguistics experts are actually anthropologists and sociologists, not linguistics professors, one of whom's area of expertise is Colombia and has spent the majroity of his research time IN MANCHESTER, the other who has never been to uraguay.

They are hardly the best "experts" in the world, are they?

They are probably the two LEAST qualified people from The Latin American Spanish faculty of Manchester University!

Indeed, what i find 'funny' about this 'kangaroo court', as David Moyes coined it, it that these 'experts' are well down the class, in comparison to how explicitly complex the saga was/is. And sure what would an Ivy League assistant professor know anyway, we have the 'expert' knowledge of the lads from the local polytechnic :pac:

Its a bit like asking a lad in the local garage to explain the intricacies of whats under the bonnet in Sebastien Vettel's motor. He will 'probably' have an idea.

Blatter · 04-01-2012 05:37AM

Opr, I don't see how I can explain this from any more angles. You are looking at it far too simplistically.

opr wrote: »

I don't understand how I can explain this from anymore different angles. It seems like a very simple point to me.

Evra version of events - Experts agree it would have been racial.

Suarez what do you think of this ? I didn't say any of that. + that doesn't make sense, that's not even the Spanish I speak + that's not even offensive in Uruguay! /END

Opr

A little bit more of a convincing defense, rather than just saying ''I didn't say any of that'', don't you think?

Any sane person/legal team would use it as a defense if it existed.

The only conclusion we can draw is that the defense didn't exist, because Suarez accepted the evidence of the Linguistic experts.

Seaneh · 04-01-2012 05:42AM

Blatter wrote: »

Opr, I don't see how I can explain this from any more angles. You are looking at it far too simplistically.

A little bit more of a convincing defense, rather than just saying ''I didn't say any of that'', don't you think?

Any sane person/legal team would use it as a defense if it existed.

The only conclusion we can draw is that the defense didn't exist, because Suarez accepted the evidence of the Linguistic experts.

what you just said is this.

2 + 2 = potato.

opr · 04-01-2012 05:44AM

How you can take them from the University of Manchester is also unbelievable in my eyes. Most likely they were completely unbiased but for the sake of looking completely neutral surely they could have taken experts from somewhere else ? I mean its as if they were deliberately trolling :pac:

Opr

smokedeels · 04-01-2012 05:52AM

Reporter: "Kenny, given how the wider public are so opposed to your view, what do you have to lose by telling us and revealing what you're saying was not included in the FA statement?"

Dalglish: "It's up to the club to decide what they want to do."

IMHO He's been told to drop it by the owners.

04-01-2012 05:53AM

opr wrote: »

How you can take them from the University of Manchester is also unbelievable in my eyes. Most likely they were completely unbiased but for the sake of looking completely neutral surely they could have taken experts from somewhere else ? I mean its as if they were deliberately trolling :pac:

Opr

well according to a lot of people it's only City fans in Manchester, despite the fact United can fill their stadium so if anything they are going to be biased towards Suarez :rolleyes:

smokedeels · 04-01-2012 05:53AM

opr wrote: »

How you can take them from the University of Manchester is also unbelievable in my eyes. Most likely they were completely unbiased but for the sake of looking completely neutral surely they could have taken experts from somewhere else ? I mean its as if they were deliberately trolling :pac:

Opr

There's no United fans in Manchester

Seaneh · 04-01-2012 06:04AM

Liam O wrote: »

well according to a lot of people it's only City fans in Manchester, despite the fact United can fill their stadium so if anything they are going to be biased towards Suarez :rolleyes:

Question: How many united fans does it take to drive to a home match?

Answer: 4.
1 to drive the car and 3 more to help pay for the petrol from Surrey.

04-01-2012 06:05AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Question: How many united fans does it take to drive to a home match?

Answer: 4.
1 to drive the car and 3 more to help pay for the petrol from Surrey.

Says the Milan supporter in Ireland(?)

Blatter · 04-01-2012 06:08AM

Seaneh wrote: »

You honestly, do not understand what you are talking about, you can't even see the differences between the language used in his statement and the others.

He DOES NOT, in ANY PART of the report, himself, use anything other than his a-language.

All spanish speakers, at times, use "tu", it's the base word for "you". It would be impossible for him to not use the word tu.

''In the interview with Mr Suarez the transcription indicated to the experts that he uses the "tu" form of the verb''

It says he used the 'tu' form of the VERB, not just used the word 'tu'.

Now is that his a-language or not?

However, he never said "por que, tu eres negro" because, that would make no sense to him or anyone in latin america. It would be totally unnatural, the grammar doesn't work.

Except there are clear indications that Suarez' use of Spanish alters between Uruguayan and European contexts as shown by using the 'tu' form of the verb ser in his interview with the experts.

Anyway, you might have lived in SA, but you don't have authority on the nuances of Uruguayan Spanish.

Seaneh wrote: »

They bloody well did challenge it.

They said, quite clearly, that he didn't say it.

Yeah, you knew well I meant challenge the linguistics of Evra's claim.

He said, if someone said those things, then yes, they would probably be said as a racial slur. They also said, he didn't say it.

I'm well aware of that.

I doubt they bothered to get into the linguistical idiocy of it all because they didn't believe that they had to defend themselves against stuff they didn't actually say.

Doubt to have bothered?

Are you for real?

Would it not have been a monumental, glaring flaw that would be staring right at them?

The burden of proof should have been on Evra here, not Suarez.

That does not mean that you can't point out and argue with what are ''apparent'' basic flaws in Evra's account in an attempt to discredit him.

You would think that the moment it transpired that Kuyt and Comolli had badly contradicted Suarez, never mind Suarez having to change his story 3 times about his use of the word negro and being caught out lying in relation to pinching Evra, that he and his legal team would have jumped on any defense they could find?

And surely this would be a glaring flaw that they could have pointed towards?

But nope, nothing said and they accepted all of the evidence given by the linguistic experts.

As I said, the only reasonable conclusion to draw from that is that it couldn't have been used as a defense at all.

Seaneh · 04-01-2012 06:15AM

Liam O wrote: »

Says the Milan supporter in Ireland(?)

And Athlone town season ticker holder who attends Galway United, Salthill Devon and Mervue games at times...

monkey9 · 04-01-2012 06:28AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Honestly, this entire thing baffles me.

I speak south american spanish.

Negro is not a ****ing offensive word.

Luis Suerez would use negro without even realising he was using it, the same way people drop mate, buddy, sham, dude, man or fella into sentences without realising they are all over this country.

The only problem here is the idiocy of the media, the general public and the FA.

There is such a stupid fear of being seen as supporting racism and the FA are so blinded that they claim he had to have meant it offensively, they said that the fact the couldnt remember how many times he said it was a clear indicator he meant it offensively.

The fact that he couldnt even remember using the word half the time he does, to me, screams he just happens to ****ing use the word in sentences.

The people on here, and elsewhere, who are too stupid to see a linguistical misfortune as someone throwing racial slurs, I really pity you all.

This is a Man U Vs Liverpool thing!!

osnola ibax · 04-01-2012 06:57AM

Been thinking about this for a while and my conclusion is this:

This fiasco is the greatest load of bullsh1t I've ever witnessed. Suarez is not a racist and his biggest offence was not apologising sooner.

He should have apologised early doors, the FA would still have their day but the ban may not have been as severe and we could all draw a line under this whole sham.

Embarrassing for all involved, and a sham to see it mentioned in the same sentence as the Stephen Lawrence case all evening on Sky News because that is a truly pivotal moment for social justice in England, not this bullsh1t.

John Terry and Luis Suarez, Ron Atkinson before them are fvcking eejits but they are not racists.

greendom · 04-01-2012 09:15AM

osnola ivax wrote: »

Been thinking about this for a while and my conclusion is this:

This fiasco is the greatest load of bullsh1t I've ever witnessed. Suarez is not a racist and his biggest offence was not apologising sooner.

He should have apologised early doors, the FA would still have their day but the ban may not have been as severe and we could all draw a line under this whole sham.

Suarez hasn't apologised

quarryman · 04-01-2012 09:39AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

****ing hell you're an absolute idiot.
.

Mr Alan wrote: »

You strike a nerve with me cause you're a ****ing thick prick.
.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Here, cornionio or whatever your name is, you're a piece of shit

Sick of the directed personal abuse this poster continuously produces.

Why is this not being dealt with?

This is from a single post:

Mr Alan wrote: »

you're a thick prick who

Mr Alan wrote: »

You're just a Utd fan

Mr Alan wrote: »

you ****ing braindead halfwit.

Mr Alan wrote: »

You ****ing thick prick.

Handsome Bob · 04-01-2012 09:41AM

cournioni wrote: »

Ok, I would like Liverpool FC to offer a full and written public apology to Juventus and their fans for Liverpool fans part the Heysel Stadium disaster. None of this amicizia crap that is nothing but an insult to the families and friends of the victims. Also I would like Kenny Dalglish to apologise for the comments he made about the disaster, which were quite sickening to be honest.

I would like Liverpool FC to offer a full and written public apology to Martin Georgiev for the vicious assault that took place by a Liverpool fan in Bulgaria and for forcing the British Government to pardon the convicted Michael Shields of the jail term that he should have served. He still has not been proven innocent by Bulgarian court and Liverpool FC decided that they were above that. They should be doing all in their power to get justice for Georgiev.

I would like Liverpool to apologise to Patrice Evra in a public statement for trying to defame him in the statements released by the club. I would also like Liverpool FC and Luis Suarez to apologise for the racist abuse directed at Evra by Suarez. They should also wear United shirts bearing Evra's name and number on the back for their warm up in their next game.

I also would like the Police and organisers at Hillsborough to publicly apologise in full for their negligence at Hillsborough in 1989 that caused the deaths of so many lives of Liverpool fans that semi final day.

Justice for all.

Well holy jesus, you stay classy Paulie.

niallo27 · 04-01-2012 09:41AM

You COULD also argue Evra owes Suarez an apology for accusing him of calling him a ******, when he clearly didn't.

cournioni · 04-01-2012 10:11AM

niallo27 wrote: »

You COULD also argue Evra owes Suarez an apology for accusing him of calling him a ******, when he clearly didn't.

I'm pretty sure he would do as he has already said that he now understands the word to mean "black". He originally thought the word negro in Spanish translated to the n word in English. However it translates black, depending on context.

Mr.Crinklewood · 04-01-2012 10:14AM

Originally Posted by Mr Alan:
Anyone can make a formal complaint to the police about the incident as far as I'm aware.

You're kidding yourself if you think plenty of Utd fans haven't already reported the incident to the police.

The reason no action will be taken is cause there's no evidence.
Originally Posted by Mr.Crinklewood:
Source?
Originally Posted by Mr Alan:
Finnan was investigated for racism by Utd fans who reported the incident from watching telly.

Terry, again reported by TV viewers.
Originally Posted by Mr.Crinklewood:
Apologies i was under the impression that you were talking about the incident under discussion in this thread, the Suarez incident...

In relation to the Finnan claim, could you throw up the link that states that they were United fans, i actually never saw their team mentioned.

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Hi Alan, i know you may have been watching the City game, but if you could throw up the Finnan link it would be appreciated.

I`ve been looking ( admittedly only skimming ) for the where someone asked about the Finnan incident, could you throw me that link as well.

Cheers Sir.

Mr Alan wrote: »

http://m.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/mar/01/newsstory.sport4?cat=football&type=article

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Cheers, this is the link that i saw myself that mentioned "deaf football fans", just looking for a link to them being Man Utd fans.

I`ve posted the details of your link below.

Still waiting on other questions to be answered.

Police investigate claims that Finnan made racist remark to Evra
Daniel Taylor
The Guardian, Wed 1 Mar 2006 01.10 GMT
A police investigation has been launched after deaf football fans complained they had lip-read Liverpool's Steve Finnan making a racist remark towards Patrice Evra of Manchester United.
The Merseyside club immediately denounced the claim as an "outrageous slur" but Greater Manchester police confirmed last night that inquiries are ongoing into allegations that the Liverpool full-back "made an offensive comment" during last month's 1-0 defeat at Old Trafford.
It is understood that the alleged remark was picked up by fans watching the game on television. Two contacted the police, as well as Manchester United, and claimed they had lip-read what the Republic of Ireland international apparently said. Police are understood to have taken statements and to be reviewing footage of the game.
The revelations drew an angry response from Anfield. "The first either the club or the player knew about this matter was through the media," a spokesman said. "There has been absolutely no contact from the Greater Manchester police. We have subsequently had a video of the match analysed by a lip-reader, who has told us there is nothing to support this outrageous slur."
The incident allegedly happened after Finnan had given away the stoppage-time free-kick on Evra that led to Rio Ferdinand heading the decisive goal. Evra, however, was unaware of any racist taunts. The Senegal-born Frenchman, a £5.5m signing from Monaco in January, has not raised any complaints although he is aware of the allegations.
United will not comment because it is a possible criminal matter.
Finnan returned to Liverpool last night after being forced out of the Republic of Ireland's squad to face Sweden in Dublin because of a neck injury. "The player vehemently denies these allegations," the Liverpool spokesman added. "He has not used any such language."
Evra's club captain Gary Neville, meanwhile, has confirmed that he will appeal against the Football Association's £5,000 fine imposed last week when the ruling body found him guilty of improper conduct after he ran 60 yards towards the Liverpool fans and kissed his badge to celebrate Ferdinand's winner in the same match.

Morning Alan lad, sorry to bother you lad but i was wondering if you had found answer to the questions I posted last night:-

In which post were you asked about the Finnian incident ?

You mentioned that Man Utd fans had complained to the police about the Finnian incident, could you provide a link stating this.

Lad, I know you already supplied a link but this was one that I was already aware of. This link does not mention which team they supported.

Cheers Lad.

niallo27 · 04-01-2012 10:30AM

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Originally Posted by Mr Alan:
Anyone can make a formal complaint to the police about the incident as far as I'm aware.

You're kidding yourself if you think plenty of Utd fans haven't already reported the incident to the police.

The reason no action will be taken is cause there's no evidence.
Originally Posted by Mr.Crinklewood:
Source?
Originally Posted by Mr Alan:
Finnan was investigated for racism by Utd fans who reported the incident from watching telly.

Terry, again reported by TV viewers.
Originally Posted by Mr.Crinklewood:
Apologies i was under the impression that you were talking about the incident under discussion in this thread, the Suarez incident...

In relation to the Finnan claim, could you throw up the link that states that they were United fans, i actually never saw their team mentioned.

Morning Alan lad, sorry to bother you lad but i was wondering if you had found answer to the questions I posted last night:-

In which post were you asked about the Finnian incident ?

You mentioned that Man Utd fans had complained to the police about the Finnian incident, could you provide a link stating this.

Lad, I know you already supplied a link but this was one that I was already aware of. This link does not mention which team they supported.

Cheers Lad.

High probability they were utd fans, they were hardly liverpool fans now were they.

Leiva · 04-01-2012 10:33AM

What a really strong stance the club is taking .:eek:

I don't have the club or it's owners down as been that stupid .

I said it before but this is not over by a long shot , even after the ban has been accepted and complete .

I know a few are embarrassed to this point with the handling of this by LFC , but I think the benefit of the doubt needs to be given to the folk who actually sat around the table and laid out and heard all the evidence .
All of us amateur barristers,investigators & linguistic experts will never know what's missing (if anything) from the report; only those who attended.

I'm not dismissing the FA document ( I still have my issues) but they had to get it sounding right even for the own skin as this was a very emotive precedent .

As my Granny always said (God bless her soul

) "the truth always comes out no matter how long"

If that truth lies on LFC or Evras side I still think it will raise it's head in the medium to long term , hence why this is not the end of this matter.

Crazy Horse 6 · 04-01-2012 10:45AM

cournioni wrote: »

Ok, I would like Liverpool FC to offer a full and written public apology to Juventus and their fans for Liverpool fans part the Heysel Stadium disaster. None of this amicizia crap that is nothing but an insult to the families and friends of the victims. Also I would like Kenny Dalglish to apologise for the comments he made about the disaster, which were quite sickening to be honest.

I would like Liverpool FC to offer a full and written public apology to Martin Georgiev for the vicious assault that took place by a Liverpool fan in Bulgaria and for forcing the British Government to pardon the convicted Michael Shields of the jail term that he should have served. He still has not been proven innocent by Bulgarian court and Liverpool FC decided that they were above that. They should be doing all in their power to get justice for Georgiev.

I would like Liverpool to apologise to Patrice Evra in a public statement for trying to defame him in the statements released by the club. I would also like Liverpool FC and Luis Suarez to apologise for the racist abuse directed at Evra by Suarez. They should also wear United shirts bearing Evra's name and number on the back for their warm up in their next game.

I also would like the Police and organisers at Hillsborough to publicly apologise in full for their negligence at Hillsborough in 1989 that caused the deaths of so many lives of Liverpool fans that semi final day.

Justice for all.

What a sickening post. What the hell has gone wrong with this forum?:mad:

Leiva · 04-01-2012 10:50AM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

What a sickening post. What the hell has gone wrong with this forum?:mad:

Truly is scraping the barrel .

Best ignored and used as a eye opener for people's true colours .

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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