Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Grayditch · 03-01-2012 02:09PM

As a Liverpool fan, I find it hard to read this thread with all the generalisations about Liverpool fans, the sly repeated digs, the fact that some people clearly are relishing all of this and, to be honest, also the cringeworthy blunt ignorance of some Liverpool fans, too.

I can't help thinking if this situation was reversed, we'd just see a mirror image of the head-in-the-sand attitudes, aswel as the sanctimonious ones, shown from both sets of fans.

I don't really think, or at the very least would like to not think Suarez is inherently racist. I think the ban is just, he used language that obviously made Evra feel like s**t, and Suarez doesn't get to decide how Evra feels about it based in what's acceptable in South America.

I hope there's no appeal. There's been more damage done with reactions than the original problem caused, I think. The shirts were a bad idea, because Suarez isn't really 100% innocent whichever way you look at it.

Both clubs have sets of fans on here that aren't enjoying any of this and are keeping an open mind about, but this is just massive fodder for some.

#15 · 03-01-2012 02:11PM

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

They wouldn't have though, as it wouldn't have the same sensationalist effect.

If you don't see the difference in how these two sentences are viewed, you're deluded.

Possible headlines:

"Suarez calls Evra 'a Negro'!"

"Suarez calls Evra a black man"

Now please tell me they didn't do that on purpose. Even the inclusion of 'a', pigeon-holing it straight into racist terminology, when that was never said.

Suarez calls Evra 'negro'
Suarez calls Evra 'black'

Whichever one of those you are taking to be true, it is absolutely terrible for Suarez.

If your complaint is not so much about the substance of the comment, but about media sensationalism, well then join the club. Media sensationalism is nothing new at this stage, unfortunately.

SlickRic · 03-01-2012 02:14PM

Grayditch wrote: »

Suarez doesn't get to decide how Evra feels about it based in what's acceptable in South America.

unfortunately, from a Liverpool fan's perspective, this really is hitting the nail on the head for me...and this is only the best case scenario for Suarez.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 02:16PM

#15 wrote: »

Suarez calls Evra 'negro'
Suarez calls Evra 'black'

Whichever one of those you are taking to be true, it is absolutely terrible for Suarez.

If your complaint is not so much about the substance of the comment, but about media sensationalism, well then join the club. Media sensationalism is nothing new at this stage, unfortunately.

But surely you can see that one version could easily be taken out of context?

There is no argumment that Suarez used the word 'negro', but too many people are relying on the sensationalist journalism to derive their understanding of the word. 'Negro' can just mean black, as in the colour, whereas our understaing of Negro (knee-gro) would immediately mean a derogatory ethnic remark.

Will I Amnt · 03-01-2012 02:25PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

So Suarez is blindly lying... kinda unlikely dont ya think? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Evra lying is not unlikely in the slightest.

Also Suarez didn't use the word "negro" in an English context, he used it in a Spanish context.

Anyway, back on topic. 4-3 Classic tonight. Wonder if Bellemy will play so soon after his exploits on Friday. He's been our main man this season goals wise. We need him out there!

Back on topic????

JimsAlterEgo · 03-01-2012 02:27PM

Grayditch wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, I find it hard to read this thread with all the generalisations about Liverpool fans, the sly repeated digs, the fact that some people clearly are relishing all of this and, to be honest, also the cringeworthy blunt ignorance of some Liverpool fans, too.

I can't help thinking if this situation was reversed, we'd just see a mirror image of the head-in-the-sand attitudes, aswel as the sanctimonious ones, shown from both sets of fans.

I don't really think, or at the very least would like to not think Suarez is inherently racist. I think the ban is just, he used language that obviously made Evra feel like s**t, and Suarez doesn't get to decide how Evra feels about it based in what's acceptable in South America.

I hope there's no appeal. There's been more damage done with reactions than the original problem caused, I think. The shirts were a bad idea, because Suarez isn't really 100% innocent whichever way you look at it.

Both clubs have sets of fans on here that aren't enjoying any of this and are keeping an open mind about, but this is just massive fodder for some.

As said many times here my problem is given the facts available I cant understand Liverpool's public stance to this.

eigrod · 03-01-2012 02:31PM

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

As said many times here my problem is given the facts available I cant understand Liverpool's public stance to this.

The facts weren't available when Liverpool made their public statement. They've said nothing since the facts became available other than to say they received them right before the Newcastle game and will take time to consider them.

Will I Amnt · 03-01-2012 02:33PM

Grayditch wrote: »

I can't help thinking if this situation was reversed, we'd just see a mirror image of the head-in-the-sand attitudes, aswel as the sanctimonious ones, shown from both sets of fans.

It's only natural to have a bias and be defensive about your team/player but personally I can seperate that from knowing when someone is in the wrong.

It's probably the reason I have posted so much in this thread.It really annoys me when someone won't accept that there is a slight chance that their team/player is in the wrong.

JimsAlterEgo · 03-01-2012 02:34PM

eigrod wrote: »

The facts weren't available when Liverpool made their public statement. They've said nothing since the facts became available other than to say they received them right before the Newcastle game and will take time to consider them.

Dalglish, Kuyt and Comoli knew the facts from day 1.

eigrod · 03-01-2012 02:37PM

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Dalglish, Kuyt and Comoli knew the facts from day 1.

Oh you mean the day they were told the accusation went from "n*gger" to "negro" to "black". There was nothing clear on day 1, and not for a long time after.

JimsAlterEgo · 03-01-2012 02:38PM

eigrod wrote: »

Oh you mean the day they were told the accusation went from "n*gger" to "negro" to "black". There was nothing clear on day 1, and not for a long time after.

He told all 3 what he said, and despite knowing that, Liverpool made what now look like very damning statements.

Brain Stroking · 03-01-2012 02:59PM

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

He told all 3 what he said, and despite knowing that, Liverpool made what now look like very damning statements.

Nail on head

ROCKMAN · 03-01-2012 03:36PM

Think Kenny attitude was wrong from the start ,
When he was informed that Fergie and Evra where making a very serious complaint and asked to come see the ref his first reaction was to made a joke about the " 30 minute rule "
And One of his first comments on the matter to the ref was "hasn't he done this before "
Setting a tone imo.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 03:38PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Think Kenny attitude was wrong from the start ,
When he was informed that Fergie and Evra where making a very serious complaint and asked to come see the ref his first reaction was to made a joke about the " 30 minute rule "
And his first comment on the matter to the ref was "hasn't he done this before "
Setting a tone imo.

Or indeed maybe thinking this was a whole load of something about nothing. After all, when he made the 30 minute joke, he did not know what he was being summoned for, and when told what it was about, assumed it was just BS.

ROCKMAN · 03-01-2012 03:44PM

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Or indeed maybe thinking this was a whole load of something about nothing. After all, when he made the 30 minute joke, he did not know what he was being summoned for, and when told what it was about, assumed it was just BS.[/QUOTE]

Have you read the report ,Fergie was overheard talking to the ref by a member of liverpool staff (Haughan ) standing at their own dressing room door and he went in and informed Him ,They even talked to Suarez before the message came from the ref asking for a meeting'

So yes he knew ...

JimsAlterEgo · 03-01-2012 03:51PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Or indeed maybe thinking this was a whole load of something about nothing. After all, when he made the 30 minute joke, he did not know what he was being summoned for, and when told what it was about, assumed it was just BS.[/QUOTE]

Have you read the report ,Fergie was overheard talking to the ref by a member of liverpool staff (Haughan ) standing at their own dressing room door and he went in and informed Him ,They even talked to Suarez before the message came from the ref asking for a meeting'

So yes he knew ...

they don't want to face up to the truth

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 03:51PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Or indeed maybe thinking this was a whole load of something about nothing. After all, when he made the 30 minute joke, he did not know what he was being summoned for, and when told what it was about, assumed it was just BS.[/QUOTE]

Have you read the report ,Fergie was overheard talking to the ref by a member of liverpool staff (Haughan ) standing at their own dressing room door and he went in and informed Him ,They even talked to Suarez before the message came from the ref asking for a meeting'

So yes he knew ...

Either way, at that initial time, he obviously just thought it was something over nothing. It's entirely irrelevant anyway.

Killme00 · 03-01-2012 03:53PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Think Kenny attitude was wrong from the start ,
When he was informed that Fergie and Evra where making a very serious complaint and asked to come see the ref his first reaction was to made a joke about the " 30 minute rule "
And One of his first comments on the matter to the ref was "hasn't he done this before " Setting a tone imo.

Where is this information from?

ROCKMAN · 03-01-2012 03:57PM

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Either way, at that initial time, he obviously just thought it was something over nothing. It's entirely irrelevant anyway.

Simple question have you read the report ,Or are your views just based on club loyal and hearsay ?
It maybe irrelevant to some ,But Kenny is the manager /leader of the club and a hell of alot of people will follow his lead /attitude .

ROCKMAN · 03-01-2012 04:01PM

Killme00 wrote: »

Where is this information from?

Mr Haughan's Statement ,The Ref's report of the post match meetings And Mr Dowd The 4th Official's statement, Page 39 of the report.

Edit : starts on page 37

Killme00 · 03-01-2012 04:07PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Mr Haughan's Statement ,And Mr Dowd The 4th Official's statement, Page 39 of the report.

Thanks, i'll have a look now.

Blatter · 03-01-2012 05:56PM

Why are people still arguing about context when the linguistic experts, who's evidence was accepted by Suarez, came to the conclusion that Suarez' use of the word Negro WOULD be considered offensive in Uruguay.

The two were in an acrimonious argument and it's 'simply incredible' to argue that he meant the word as a term of endearment.

The only way you can back him up though cultural differences is by claiming that racism isn't a big deal in the place he comes from, and it's fairly obvious that type of ignorance is not an excuse.

K-9 · 03-01-2012 06:30PM

I thought when the decision was announced Liverpool would have had more information. They would have had plenty, the experts report and Evra's statements to hand, stuff like that.

To me it seems Liverpool do not accept he said black repeatedly and tbh I don't blame them. That's obviously totally different from Suarez's version and it's pretty damning. The only evidence for that is Evra, even on the pitch talking to the ref or Giggs he said "he called me black" or similar, no reference to the repeated times until after the match. It's a very important distinction because repeatedly saying it looks borderline racist, once could be passed of as unintentional or mistaken, 5/7 times shows he intentionally meant it as an insult and kept using it.

There are a few things in Suarez's favour that they seem just to have dismissed out of hand. Suarez changing when he said Negro could be just down to seeing the video evidence and realising he was wrong, not as outlandish as people think, both players recollections weren't 100% anyway, Evra was mistaken once or twice, perfectly understandable. The panel also seems to have focused on borrowing the word conciliatory from the report. The experts agreed using the term negro can be normal on a football pitch, that was ignored by the panel and just dismissed.

Thinking about it, it is quite hard to give the benefit of the doubt to Suarez. His change of evidence means his second version is the correct one and if he used it while the two of them were still arguing, it doesn't really matter the intent, even if he said it while shaking his hand it's open to interpretation and Evra was hardly in a calm state.

The most stupid evidence was the pinching as conciliatory. I don't think anybody could even try and reason that one.

The amount of times he said it is very much based on Evra's statement, there really isn't any other evidence on that. Liverpool could appeal and say Evra exaggerated but they had a chance to say that originally and chose a different defence, basically Evra made it up so, I don't know how that would go down. There's a chance the ban could go up and then you have the PR thing. Even if they succeed you'll get the usual who say "sure, he's just less racist so"

Kess73 · 03-01-2012 06:41PM

SlickRic wrote: »

what has Evra to gain?

the only thing he has to gain, is to generally just be a cúnt and píss off a lot of people.

Suarez isn't lying, he did use it in a Spanish context, but that was a moronic thing to do, and it can't be allowed or forgiven. if he said "negro" he still referenced his skin colour, which he should know better than to do.

they were riling each other up, and Suarez, ignorantly or not, went too far. simple as. they have to hand out this punishment to help deter it in the future. i just hope this evidence they have is pretty good, but i suspect it would have to be.

Suarez isn't a racist IMO, he's just a very stupid, ignorant and naughty boy...who likes to get under people's skin (pun intended ), and went too far.

Just a couple of things in your post that I would like to ramble a little on.

You say the FA had to hand out a punishment for what Suarez said. I can go along with that, but what the FA actually did is hand out a punishment that was based on one thing he admitted to and six that he denied.

If Suarez is to be given an eight match ban, I think that the FA should have been very clear in stating it was for what he admitted rather than chucking in the bit saying that they think he may have said something similar six other times as well. It just does not sit well with me that he is being punished for what he might have said as well as what he actually did admit to. I think that regardless of what other things I think are inconsistent in the report (and both sides have plenty of inconsistent bits imho), if the FA came out and said that the punishment was for what was admitted to (and for how they interpreted that), and that there was a difference in opinion between both parties in relation to six other claimed incidents that I would be more inclined totake the report a bit easier.

The Suarez is not a racist bit is the other thing that bugs me. If Suarez used the word on purpose in order to offend Evra based on his skin colour, then that is a racist act. In my eyes if you commit one racist act or one hundred then you are a racist. If you go out and make a deliberate racist comment to someone you do not know, then I fail to see how you can be looked at as not being racist.

If the FA and Evra etc come out and say Suarez is not a racist and they think that Suarez did not mean the comment in a racist manner, then he should not be charged with making a comment of a racial nature at all, and the charge should only be that of making an abusive comment.

But if they are to charge Suarez with making a comment that had deliberate racial connotations, and truly believe that he did so, then surely the report should be passed onto the police and either someone from the FA or Evra himself should be making an official complaint of racist abuse. It just does not seem right that if they think he made a comment of a racial nature that was deliberate in it's intent to be abusive that they would not at least try to take it as far as they legally could in order to make an example.

The more I read the report the more there is that does not sit well with me. I'm not saying that Suarez should just be called innocent and everything forgotten about, far from it in fact, but there seems like there are a lot of half measures when there should be something mort definitive one way or the other.

DOC09UNAM · 03-01-2012 06:42PM

Mister Men wrote: »

niallo27 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a well though out post, its the ones suggesting kenny is in the Klan or comparing this whole situation to the twin towers that are the problem.

Niallo your always gonna get those sorts of posters on a wind up mission i'm afraid and whilst it's hard to ignore them it's best if you do.

I'm sure your wife would be proud of that ironing.

tommyhaas · 03-01-2012 06:55PM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

I don't know one single fellow Liverpool fan who is disgusted by the clubs action

I'm a Liverpool fan, and I'm disgusted by the clubs actions

I don't know Luis Suarez, so I can't say with certainty one way or the other if he is racist, or what is intentions were. I don't believe he is racist, and I do think his remarks were born out of his ignorance to the seriousness with which reference to race is considered in Western Europe, relative to the common and acceptable reference to race in the culture in which he was raised

I'm not disgusted with the Clubs decision to back him, or the decision to wear the teeshirts, however cringeworthy

What I'm disgusted about is the failure to clarify why they are backing him, to clarify his intentions, the cultural context that led to the incident, and his remorse. By not doing so, they have condoned unintentional or uneducated racist remarks

Racism whether intentional or unintentional is the same thing to the person on the receiving end. I fully understand why the club are standing by Suarez, but to come out fighting like they did, proclaiming the whole thing to be a farce in the knowledge that Suarez did insult Evra racially showed an enormous disregard and ignorance of the impact these words can have

If I were black, I would not be happy with my club condoning unintentional racist remarks. If the insult had with the same intention been aimed at Catholic's, I would be furious with the clubs attempts to dismiss the seriousness of sectarianism on the basis that the a person was unaware

All it would have taken was a statement outlining what Suarez said, what his intentions were, how it fitted with his upbringing and culture, and how the misunderstanding arouse. By doing this the club wouldn't be condoning unintentional racism, they would still be standing by Suarez, would have come out with far more credit then they have, could have avoided the public backlash against both club and player, and Suarez would in all likelihood have received a far lesser ban as the mitigating circumstances would have carried greater weight. It would also have been the decent thing to do

There's not many clubs that have been criticised by anti-discrimination groups for their actions, but Liverpool through their entirely inappropriate reaction to this mess can now count themselves as members of that exclusive group. The road that was taken has been of no benefit to the clubs image or that of Luis Suarez, the welfare of Suarez or the campaign against racism

Kess73 · 03-01-2012 07:07PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

I'm a Liverpool fan, and I'm disgusted by the clubs actions

I don't know Luis Suarez, so I can't say with certainty one way or the other if he is racist, or what is intentions were. I don't believe he is racist, and I do think his remarks were born out of his ignorance to the seriousness with which reference to race is considered in Western Europe, relative to the common and acceptable reference to race in the culture in which he was raised

I'm not disgusted with the Clubs decision to back him, or the decision to wear the teeshirts, however cringeworthy

What I'm disgusted about is the failure to clarify why they are backing him, to clarify his intentions, the cultural context that led to the incident, and his remorse. By not doing so, they have condoned unintentional or uneducated racist remarks

Racism whether intentional or unintentional is the same thing to the person on the receiving end. I fully understand why the club are standing by Suarez, but to come out fighting like they did, proclaiming the whole thing to be a farce in the knowledge that Suarez did insult Evra racially showed an enormous disregard and ignorance of the impact these words can have

If I were black, I would not be happy with my club condoning unintentional racist remarks. If the insult had with the same intention been aimed at Catholic's, I would be furious with the clubs attempts to dismiss the seriousness of sectarianism on the basis that the a person was unaware

All it would have taken was a statement outlining what Suarez said, what his intentions were, how it fitted with his upbringing and culture, and how the misunderstanding arouse. By doing this the club wouldn't be condoning unintentional racism, they would still be standing by Suarez, would have come out with far more credit then they have, could have avoided the public backlash against both club and player, and Suarez would in all likelihood have received a far lesser ban as the mitigating circumstances would have carried greater weight. It would also have been the decent thing to do

There's not many clubs that have been criticised by anti-discrimination groups for their actions, but Liverpool through their entirely inappropriate reaction to this mess can now count themselves as members of that exclusive group. The road that was taken has been of no benefit to the clubs image or that of Luis Suarez, the welfare of Suarez or the campaign against racism

Agree with it or not, this is a well written and well considered post. Cheers for posting it Tommy, I enjoyed it and it is indeed food for thought.

opr · 03-01-2012 07:17PM

Blatter wrote: »

Why are people still arguing about context when the linguistic experts, who's evidence was accepted by Suarez, came to the conclusion that Suarez' use of the word Negro WOULD be considered offensive in Uruguay.

That is not what the report found.

194. The experts concluded their observations on Mr Suarez's account as follows. If Mr Suarez used the word "negro" as described by Mr Suarez, this would not be interpreted as either offensive or offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally; it is being used along the lines of paragraphs 172, 173 and 175 above

Opr

Will I Amnt · 03-01-2012 07:20PM

opr wrote: »

Blatter wrote: »

Why are people still arguing about context when the linguistic experts, who's evidence was accepted by Suarez, came to the conclusion that Suarez' use of the word Negro WOULD be considered offensive in Uruguay.

That is not what the report found.

194. The experts concluded their observations on Mr Suarez's account as follows. If Mr Suarez used the word "negro" as described by Mr Suarez, this would not be interpreted as either offensive or offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally; it is being used along the lines of paragraphs 172, 173 and 175 above

Opr

You are using Suarez's account of things again.You did it yesterday aswell.
His side if the story is the one they didn't accept.

Blatter · 03-01-2012 07:23PM

opr wrote: »

That is not what the report found.

Opr

But the thing is, they didn't accept Suarez' version of events, so the report did find that Suarez' use of the word negro would be offensive anywhere around the world, even in Uruguay.

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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