You are not an Economy

smcgiff · 01-01-2012 03:44PM

So much wrong with the op's post couldn't be bothered tackling his post - maybe I've caught the malaise too.

looksee · 01-01-2012 03:48PM

Are all your figures and arguments are as accurate as your estimation of teachers' salaries? How many heads of large schools with 25 years reckonable service are there in the country, much less in 'Enda Kenny's party' - which is what you would have to calculate to get the €90k you offer in your argument.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

Galwayguy35 · 01-01-2012 03:48PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I honestly think people are becoming a little hysterical about the recession and so forth at this stage.

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Taxing the super rich only, which everyone seems to think is the only acceptable solution, will not work.

The next few budgets will be tough but they have to be. I firmly believe that if we all stop whinging and moaning and start getting proactive things will get better.

Thats easy to say if you have a secure well paid job. Some of us dont have that. I cant say if i will still have a job in 6 months the way things are going. Over €30 billion was thrown into the black hole that was Anglo so its a bit hard to take when the ordinary person is penalized for that.

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 03:50PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I honestly think people are becoming a little hysterical about the recession and so forth at this stage.

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Taxing the super rich only, which everyone seems to think is the only acceptable solution, will not work.

The next few budgets will be tough but they have to be. I firmly believe that if we all stop whinging and moaning and start getting proactive things will get better.

People become "hysterical" when they can't pay their bills and are being bled f*cking dry by a government of theiving ba*tards, who are careful enough to protect themselves and their PS minnions from any real austerity, while strapping it onto the backs of the rest of us. If you haven't experienced what it is like to have no money or the sheer frustration of not being able to pay your way through life, then maybe you are lucky enough to be one of those folks in a well enough paid private sector job or maybe you are one of those who are living under the fantasy incomes that the Croke Park Agreement provides for.

Regardless of what you do, it's an awful slap in the face to anyone who is experiencing very real and very crushing austerity, to tell them that they are being "hysterical"... But for the grace of God, there go I, as my Mother would say...

Ice87 · 01-01-2012 03:51PM

IMF first thing that caught the eye,

leaves thread

Profiler · 01-01-2012 03:54PM

shangri la wrote: »

why europe and the IMF are making large amounts of money off the irish taxpayer.

Well now, was it the IMF or Europe who voted in governments over the last 15 years who got Ireland into this mess??.... why no! it was the roguish rebellious rapscallions the IRISH who did that...

The same people (the Irish) who can't generate enough money to pay their current day to day expenses...

The same people (the Irish) who now need to BORROW money from the IMF and Europe to pay those day to day expenses...

Should the IMF and Europe just give us the money for free? we be the begging bowl handlers to the Europe/IMF charity given how badly we've spent it so far, that would be just plain stupid. Throwing good money after bad.

Ireland is a democracy, and as such it has the Government today that it (voted for) deserves, as we had the Fianna Fail Government we (voted for) deserved over the last 15 to 20 years.

Ireland made it's own problems, we now have to suffer the consequences for those self made problems.

If you want to protest, why not protest against "your" own stupidity.

Amirani · 01-01-2012 03:54PM

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

dxhound2005 · 01-01-2012 03:54PM

shangri la wrote: »

Today brings in a raft of new stealth taxes which will cost the average family an extra E2,000 a year. People cant afford this but FG is doing what the IMF tells them to do. Argentina faced the same issues with the IMFs auserity measures and their citizens lost most of their life savings due to a devalued currency.

The bondholders who the government are protecting because the EU told them to are doubling their investment on irish bonds on the backs of the taxpayer.

Enda Kenny is not a strong enough leader and his party is made up of teachers who want to keep their cushy E90k+ jobs long enough to get a great pension. They are not looking out for our best interests simply because they are doing what the EU and IMF tell them to without fail. The IMF is only concerned with getting their money back and Ireland is a small spec on the EU that can cause big problems so it is in their interest to bleed us as much as possible.

Our young have to emigrate to get work.

Our middle aged population are crippled with huge mortgages in negative equity and familys are spending huge time apart due to working abroad and seeing eachother a few days a month.

The elderly have had their pensions decimated.

Yet Enda and the boys have come back to bleed us for even more.

Bankers in state owned banks still earn over E200,000 and enda says they cant do anything about it.

In Ireland we have a relax, it will be grand attitude. It wont be grand. We are fooked right now, we just dont see it because the irish pride wont let us show how much we are suffering.

The first step is to hold the politicans accountable. They wanted the paycheck, now lets make sure they do the job right!

Join an orgasination that fits with your political beliefs and get out there and protest!

How did you find out about them if they are stealth taxes?

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 03:58PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

Economics works by paying out what you are taking in, and borrowing for stuff that needs to be borrowed for, like capital assets, such as roads, schools, etc.

Borrowing 20 billion a year just to turn the lights on and to pay for current expenditure like PS salaries, just because you are afraid to stand up to them and tell them to their face that they are overpaid, and that the same people are not working efficiently, this isn't economics, this is bullsh*t. I see no reason why such utter and blatantly stupid public policies should not be discussed here or anywhere else.

shangri la · 01-01-2012 03:58PM

looksee wrote: »

Are all your figures and arguments are as accurate as your estimation of teachers' salaries? How many heads of large schools with 25 years reckonable service are there in the country, much less in 'Enda Kenny's party' - which is what you would have to calculate to get the ?90k you offer in your argument. But don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

thats the minimum TDs salary before additional income for boards, travel, ect.

shangri la · 01-01-2012 04:03PM

Profiler wrote: »

Well now, was it the IMF or Europe who voted in governments over the last 15 years who got Ireland into this mess??.... why no! it was the roguish rebellious rapscallions the IRISH who did that...

The same people (the Irish) who can't generate enough money to pay their current day to day expenses...

The same people (the Irish) who now need to BORROW money from the IMF and Europe to pay those day to day expenses...

Should the IMF and Europe just give us the money for free? we be the begging bowl handlers to the Europe/IMF charity given how badly we've spent it so far, that would be just plain stupid. Throwing good money after bad.

Ireland is a democracy, and as such it has the Government today that it (voted for) deserves, as we had the Fianna Fail Government we (voted for) deserved over the last 15 to 20 years.

Ireland made it's own problems, we now have to suffer the consequences for those self made problems.

If you want to protest, why not protest against "your" own stupidity.

there is a small percentage of the population whose excess led to this situation.

its everyone else who is suffering for it.

not everyone had a second home and a bmw during the boom.

Amirani · 01-01-2012 04:07PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Economics works by paying out what you are taking in, and borrowing for stuff that needs to be borrowed for, like capital assets, such as roads, schools, etc.

Borrowing 20 billion a year just to turn the lights on and to pay for current expenditure like PS salaries, just because you are afraid to stand up to them and tell them to their face that they are overpaid, and that the same people are not working efficiently, this isn't economics, this is bullsh*t. I see no reason why such utter and blatantly stupid public policies should not be discussed here or anywhere else.

Your post is idealistic nonsense. Name one developed economy that borrows purely for capital purposes? That's right, there is none. It's not feasible to work that way because of the cyclical nature of economies.

What do you suggest we do about the second part? Sack the whole of the public service and throw them on the dole?

Profiler · 01-01-2012 04:08PM

shangri la wrote: »

there is a small percentage of the population whose excess led to this situation.

And "we the people" through our democratic majority voted them into position where they could do that, or allow their "friends" to do that...

We the people did this to ourselves, we're to blame, if you want to protest against those at fault march up and down outside your own house with your placard.

shangri la · 01-01-2012 04:08PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

The government has not explained themselves.

They have not even explained why they have not shared the burden with the bondholders (gamblers)

are you willing to pay an extra E2,000 a year no questions asked?

nacimroc · 01-01-2012 04:10PM

The fact is 1/3 of the population are the fat cat public sector workers who don't want to rock the boat as long as they keep getting huge pensions / salaries.

The second third are the pensioners who can't afford to shake things up as they would lose their pensions with any shake up of currency, devaluation, instability.

The remaining young working class are gone!! The people who need to save this country had no choice but to leg it hence no massive protests. If you were to get the 500,000+ young people who emigrated in the last 2 years back to protest how long do you think it would take to shake it up and fix the cripling public sector squandering.

I feel we are destined to stay paying the fat cats / banks / developers until we go completely broke in about 5 years before the system gets shaken up enough to make any significant difference.

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 04:11PM

I genuinely hope that 2012 is the year that the hard working Irish people, and those out of work, start standing up to these f*cking spastic leeches in government and start a process of undermining this government by organising massive protests, not organised by the cockroaches in SIPTU or the ICTU, but by the completely unrepresented MAJORITY in this country, small business people, people who work for small businesses, who's jobs are under attack by this government, those that used to work for such firms before they lost their jobs, who's very basic standard of living is under attack by this government, etc.

And in case anyone says I'm not speaking from experience, I've been on the dole within the lats 3 years, I started up a small business in this country recently and I can tell you one thing, you'd get more f*cking thanks, respect and support for staying on the dole and keeping your head down and your mouth shut.

I've personally experienced the utter dysfunction that passes for a non credible job creation strategy that is being pursued by this, I wouldn't even insult the word "government" by using that word to describe the gang of utterly incompetent and selfish f*ckhounds that we have elected to run this country.

Amirani · 01-01-2012 04:12PM

shangri la wrote: »

The government has not explained themselves.

They have not even explained why they have not shared the burden with the bondholders (gamblers)

are you willing to pay an extra E2,000 a year no questions asked?

Legally they have no choice, we decided to guarantee all Irish bank debts remember? Our elected representatives passed it through the Dail.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0930/economy.html

shangri la · 01-01-2012 04:14PM

Profiler wrote: »

And "we the people" through our democratic majority voted them into position where they could do that, or allow their "friends" to do that... We the people did this to ourselves, we're to blame, if you want to protest against those at fault march up and down outside your own house with your placard.

what are you saying?

we deserve to be jobless with huge debts because of the local politican we voted for?

Profiler · 01-01-2012 04:15PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

I genuinely hope that 2012 is the year that the hard working Irish people, and those out of work, start standing up to these f*cking spastic leeches in government and start a process of undermining this government by organising massive protests, not organised by the cockroaches in SIPTU or the ICTU, but by the completely unrepresented MAJORITY in this country, small business people, people who work for small businesses, who's jobs are under attack by this government, those that used to work for such firms before they lost their jobs, who's very basic standard of living is under attack by this government, etc.

And in case anyone says I'm not speaking from experience, I've been on the dole within the lats 3 years, I started up a small business in this country recently and I can tell you one thing, you'd get more f*cking thanks, respect and support for staying on the dole and keeping your head down and your mouth shut.

I've personally experienced the utter dysfunction that passes for a non credible job creation strategy that is being pursued by this, I wouldn't even insult the word "government" by using that word to describe the gang of utterly incompetent and selfish f*ckhounds that we have elected to run this country.

You did this to Ireland, you are to blame!

Off you go now and take your anger out on yourself... but just remember try and not end up in hospital, as a tax payer I don't want you leeching off me anymore than you do already.

AudreyHepburn · 01-01-2012 04:16PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

People become "hysterical" when they can't pay their bills and are being bled f*cking dry by a government of theiving ba*tards, who are careful enough to protect themselves and their PS minnions from any real austerity, while strapping it onto the backs of the rest of us. If you haven't experienced what it is like to have no money or the sheer frustration of not being able to pay your way through life, then maybe you are lucky enough to be one of those folks in a well enough paid private sector job or maybe you are one of those who are living under the fantasy incomes that the Croke Park Agreement provides for.

Regardless of what you do, it's an awful slap in the face to anyone who is experiencing very real and very crushing austerity, to tell them that they are being "hysterical"... But for the grace of God, there go I, as my Mother would say...

I have experienced that, I know what it is to not have a penny to my name.

But I also know that becoming bitter and hysterical and cynical over it will solve nothing.

Profiler · 01-01-2012 04:17PM

shangri la wrote: »

what are you saying?

we deserve to be jobless with huge debts because of the local politican we voted for?

Pretty much, yes.

We voted them in, we have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

There are people out there who have their entire lives voted for one party and will always vote for that party. Until such time as we, the entire electorate, can take responsibility for our own actions then your foot stomping and hissy fits are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 04:18PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Your post is idealistic nonsense. Name one developed economy that borrows purely for capital purposes? That's right, there is none. It's not feasible to work that way because of the cyclical nature of economies.

What do you suggest we do about the second part? Sack the whole of the public service and throw them on the dole?

No, not sack them, not unless there is no actual job function there that they are needed to fill. There is a notion in our PS in Ireland that if you are not on 70K or 100K, then someone is making a mug of you. Anyone in the private sector on 40K-50K at the moment is extremely grateful. But you have this over arching mindset within the public sector that needs to be completely deconstructed, that if you are on 60K or 70K, (and you cannot be made redundant without your consent, as per the Croke Park Deal), that you are on shyte money.

I fully accept that economies operate on a cycle that is cyclical, but at the same time, borrowing tens of billions of Euro a year just to pay for deluded muppets who think that they cannot survive on less than 70K a year, tens of billions of Euro I might add, for current expenditure, which has to be repaid with interest, there is only one place you end up in when this is what you are at, and that is complete and utter state failure.

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 04:20PM

Profiler wrote: »

You did this to Ireland, you are to blame!

Off you go now and take your anger out on yourself... but just remember try and not end up in hospital, as a tax payer I don't want you leeching off me anymore than you do already.

Yes, I lost my job and started up a business and created a job for myself, I certainly do sound like part of the problem don't I?!? Get back in under your bridge you troll!

HellFireClub · 01-01-2012 04:22PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have experienced that, I know what it is to not have a penny to my name.

But I also know that becoming bitter and hysterical and cynical over it will solve nothing.

Bitterness, cynicism, these feelings are nothing less than inevitable when you are being completely set up for failure and that's what is happening to a lot of people in this country at the moment. There is no credible jobs creation strategy, people are being completely set up for failure here...

Doc Ruby · 01-01-2012 04:27PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Hows about we start by sacrificing the quangos and the raft of surplus public sector middle management staff?

Trying to get taxes up to boom levels without an actual boom is suicidal.

Profiler · 01-01-2012 04:27PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Yes, I lost my job and started up a business and created a job for myself, I certainly do sound like part of the problem don't I?!? Get back in under your bridge you trolling muppet!

Did you vote in the last 4 general elections?

Did you get out onto the streets demanding nobody vote for Fianna Fail because their brand of self interest and corruption would land Ireland in a huge mess?

Did you protest the availability of 100% mortgages?

What did you do in the last 15 or so years to prevent this from happening?

As for me being a troll? Pot/Kettle/Black

shangri la · 01-01-2012 04:29PM

Im shocked at people sitting back saying we voted for FF.

They guaranteed the deposits.

We deserve to go broke.

Jesus Christ, thats the attitude that will put the final nail in the coffin.

We have less money, we need to use it as efficiently as possible. The current government is wasting billions by not making ANY decisions.

shangri la · 01-01-2012 04:32PM

Profiler wrote: »

You did this to Ireland, you are to blame!

Off you go now and take your anger out on yourself... but just remember try and not end up in hospital, as a tax payer I don't want you leeching off me anymore than you do already.

If this is your true outlook, you are a disgrace.

Profiler · 01-01-2012 04:32PM

shangri la wrote: »

Im shocked at people sitting back saying we voted for FF.

They guaranteed the deposits.

We deserve to go broke.

Jesus Christ, thats the attitude that will put the final nail in the coffin.

We have less money, we need to use it as efficiently as possible. The current government is wasting billions by not making ANY decisions.

The democratic majority voted for FF, so yes, "we" voted for FF.

We put people into a position of power and for 15 years kept them there, they made us go broke, they allowed this to happen/

The current government is fighting this with both hands tied behind it's back and blindfolded. Maybe if the IMF/EU shackles were removed they would prove to be equally as inept/corrupt but I suspect we'll never know.

dxhound2005 · 01-01-2012 04:33PM

nacimroc wrote: »

The fact is 1/3 of the population are the fat cat public sector workers who don't want to rock the boat as long as they keep getting huge pensions / salaries.

The second third are the pensioners who can't afford to shake things up as they would lose their pensions with any shake up of currency, devaluation, instability.

The remaining young working class are gone!! The people who need to save this country had no choice but to leg it hence no massive protests. If you were to get the 500,000+ young people who emigrated in the last 2 years back to protest how long do you think it would take to shake it up and fix the cripling public sector squandering.

I feel we are destined to stay paying the fat cats / banks / developers until we go completely broke in about 5 years before the system gets shaken up enough to make any significant difference.

The fat cat one third are probably the children of the pensioners and the parents of the other third. So win win situation all round.

You are not an Economy

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