You are not an Economy

Callipo

No you are not.

When the Economy fails you will still be a people.

You are people.....not an Economy.

Cavehill Red

Thanks for the pep talk, big guy.

For Forks Sake

Prove it.

Samich

Tell that to some celebs child called Economy.

Yahew

Callipo wrote: »

No you are not.

When the Economy fails you will still be a people.

You are people.....not an Economy.

A people without an economy is...... a dead people

InkSlinger67

Tell that to my kids!

-NASDAQ

The_Minister

We'll be a people without money though, and we only have enough travellers to eat to last us a week at most.

juan.kerr

Half of the population could become Roma, spreading out through the EU begging and robbing then send the money home to Ireland. We'd pay off the bailout in a couple of years.

later12

We are, in part, an economy.

All independent adults pay taxes and engage in the consumer economy; it's part of who we are, part of human behaviour.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing just because it involves money. The economy is something that can help to define our identity as a society.

We can be more proud of our economy than most other things adhering to our national psyche, such as our nationality, language or our culture, for example, because the economy is something we all create and pattern together, like 4 million spinners at our wheels.

Liam Byrne

My neighbour, Annie Connomy, asked me to post to express her annoyance and insulted-ness!

Chuck Stone

Trading is very human.

juan.kerr

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My neighbour, Annie Connomy, asked me to post to express her annoyance and insulted-ness!

Does she not have the internet herself?

admiralofthefleet

brool story co

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Trading is very human.

So is screwing - but it's when the traders do both simultaneously that it all falls apart.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So is screwing

Weak analogy.

Screwing isn't just human - all manner of living things do that.

Trading is much more than exchanging goods and services - it involves trust and other higher animal emotions.

Eric Cartman

we live in a society where freedom and wealth come hand in hand, and while some people say money cant bring happiness , its in my view almost impossible to be happy without any money , so an economy is indeed important to sustain freedom and a decent quality of life, remember 2006 sure we were all having great craic

44leto

Callipo wrote: »

No you are not.

When the Economy fails you will still be a people.

You are people.....not an Economy.

No-one arguing we will still be people, but poor, starving and very frightened people.

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So is screwing

Weak analogy.

Screwing isn't just human - all manner of living things do that.

Trading is much more than exchanging goods and services - it involves trust and other higher animal emotions.

Trading involves "trust" ? Not in this century it doesn't!

Biggins

Callipo wrote: »

No you are not.

When the Economy fails you will still be a people.

You are people.....not an Economy.

Aaa... ok!

OfflerCrocGod

Singularly, no. In aggregate, yes.

Irish Steve

44leto wrote: »

No-one arguing we will still be people, but poor, starving and very frightened people.

We're that already. and it's not showing any signs of improving any time soon. Most of my friends are of an age where they were thinking about what was ahead in retirement, now, they're frightened about where things are going, what they are going to be left with to live on, and how they will try to provide for their retirement, as their plans have been blown out of the water by the destruction of their reserves, and the implosion of the property market. If your capital reserves are gone, and you can't downsize because there's no property market, and you know that you are going to be hammered by new taxes like property tax, water charges, and the like, and there's damn all income to pay them with, that's frightening, and before too long, it will also be poor and starving, cold, and more dangerous, with no liklihood of seeing it change or improve in the remainder of their lifetime. the most corrosive aspect of what's happening at the moment is not the immediate pain of the restructuring that is needed, it's the painful realisation that the politicians don't have a clue how to fix it, or how to get things working again, for a VERY long time.

Starting again from nothing at the age of 60 is very hard to do in the present environment, the system is not there to enable that to happen, even if someone has an idea that could be productive, making it happen requires resources of some sort, either financial, or emotional, and a lot of my friends have none of either of them any more, they've been destroyed by the ongoing lack of vision and change in what they are seeing. Speaking personally, I no longer have the energy to start from zero again, and there is no way I will ever trust the banksters again, they can't be trusted, so borrowing from them. even if it were possible. to start something new isn't an option.


Maybe if we said to hell with "the economy" and the Euro, and being dominated by Germany (looks like they have effectively won WW3 at last), there would be seismic changes that would cause massive pain, but if things like oil, BMW's and the like became prohibitively expensive, we'd make a real start on finding and using, or actually making locally sourced and manufactured alternatives, rather than the pretense that we have at the moment. Carbon tax for example is doing NOTHING to encourage alternative energy research or use, all it's doing is generating revenue that the Govt desperately needs to prop up it's failed experiements in running the country.



If we couldn't afford the size of the PS, and lots of the other things that we are wasting money on, including some of the crazy EU regulations that have very little to do with reality, and everything to do with justifying jobs for the people that make stupid regulations, then maybe we'd get back to employing people in ways that are positive in their effect. Rules on the size, shape, colour and texture of bananas are exactly that, rules for a banana republic, and a luxury that we, and a lot of other people, can't afford, as they do nothing to improve the quality of the product or its use.

If that means that some of the PS workers have to start working in completely different areas, like manufacturing devices for effective use of whatever resources we find to replace oil, at least it's a positive contribution to the economy of the future, rather than an expensive drain on diminishing resources that we can't afford any more.

Communism always was a busted flush, because there are always people in the communist system that feel they should be better treated than the average, so they want larger cars, and bigger houses, and dedicated traffic lanes and all the other distortions that make them into dictators in all but name.

The system failed, but what's now happening is that we've also discovered that capitalism with too much freedom has also failed, big time, because the only difference between the 2 extremes is the manner in which a small group of people seek to manipulate the system for their own personal benefit over and above the rest of the collective, however you want to name it.

So, we need a new system, and achieving that is going to take some serious and long term changes that go to the very core of the entire existence of the species on the planet, and I'm not talking about some of the carp that has been spouted by special interests like the Green party and their ilk, so much of that was just short sighted local issues that in the overall scale of things didn't even represent a bump in the road. Too many of them were just vested interest NIMBY's, without a vision of the wider implications of their policies and attitudes. Since when has putting red tarmac on the roads and in bus stops made a blind bit of difference to how people use those roads, or park? Generated lots of jobs for the boys, producing all the regulations, but did the national economy really benefit from doing it, or were we just spending money on things that didn't make much real difference to how the nation lives and survives.

Going back to the opening point, frightened doesn't even come close, partly because of the damage that's already been done, and partly because there seems to be no idea or clue from any of the "leaders" about a realistic and viable way to rebuild a society that's discovered that there is no future in the way that it was heading.

Going back to "the old ways" is not going to be a solution either, too much of that was dominated and controlled by another vested interest, the Catholic Church, and we've seen in recent years how much damage and pain was inflicted by that organisation on the lives of countless people, and we're paying the price now for some of those excesses.

I don't have answers to some of this, far from it, but I do know that paying some broker in an office somewhere stupid levels of "bonus" for moving electronic money from one place to another at just the right moment is not a realistic use of the resources of the planet, and allowing another individual to "own" a ship load of oil for several weeks and make huge profits by speculating on it is equally immoral. In the same vein, only being able to get into certain professions by virtue of having a certain number of points at Leaving Cert is also wrong, academic ability is no indicator of a person's ability to be a good doctor, or vet for example. In the same vein, making huge profits out of areas like drugs and medical services has to be looked at in a new light, research has to be paid for, but not if it means that the end product is only available to an elite or exclusive few, and we're going that way with the present system of healthcare.

So, how do we persuade the people in power that EVERYTHING has to go back into the melting pot, and just maybe, if enough people are involved in deciding the shape of what comes out of the other end, a new Republic, might just have the capability to succeed in ways that the present one has no chance of doing.

It can't happen, but if it could, what would the long term effect be. Wipe all the information in all the banks computers. All the balances, debit and credit, gone. Change the system so that things like pensions are not based on earnings, but on need. Things like massive pensions for an elite few are gone.
Earnings based on realistic values rather than the nonsense that happens now. Are politicians worth the money they get now? No, and they certainly don't deserve by right to get the pension entitlements that they do, not when the rest of the people in the country can't get anything like the same entitlements (or allowances and the like, come to that). Social upheaval isn't even close, but it's what's going to have to happen if Ireland of the future is going to have a future as a Republic, the only other alternative is that we all learn German and become another state in the new enlarge German Republic that thinks it has the answer to solving all the problems of Europe. Merkel and Sarkozy think they have the answers. I don't think so, not if we want to be the people that we are supposed to be.

PK2008

Irish Steve wrote: »

We're that already. and it's not showing any signs of improving any time soon. Most of my friends are of an age where they were thinking about what was ahead in retirement, now, they're frightened about where things are going, what they are going to be left with to live on, and how they will try to provide for their retirement, as their plans have been blown out of the water by the destruction of their reserves, and the implosion of the property market. If your capital reserves are gone, and you can't downsize because there's no property market, and you know that you are going to be hammered by new taxes like property tax, water charges, and the like, and there's damn all income to pay them with, that's frightening, and before too long, it will also be poor and starving, cold, and more dangerous, with no liklihood of seeing it change or improve in the remainder of their lifetime. the most corrosive aspect of what's happening at the moment is not the immediate pain of the restructuring that is needed, it's the painful realisation that the politicians don't have a clue how to fix it, or how to get things working again, for a VERY long time.

Starting again from nothing at the age of 60 is very hard to do in the present environment, the system is not there to enable that to happen, even if someone has an idea that could be productive, making it happen requires resources of some sort, either financial, or emotional, and a lot of my friends have none of either of them any more, they've been destroyed by the ongoing lack of vision and change in what they are seeing. Speaking personally, I no longer have the energy to start from zero again, and there is no way I will ever trust the banksters again, they can't be trusted, so borrowing from them. even if it were possible. to start something new isn't an option.


Maybe if we said to hell with "the economy" and the Euro, and being dominated by Germany (looks like they have effectively won WW3 at last), there would be seismic changes that would cause massive pain, but if things like oil, BMW's and the like became prohibitively expensive, we'd make a real start on finding and using, or actually making locally sourced and manufactured alternatives, rather than the pretense that we have at the moment. Carbon tax for example is doing NOTHING to encourage alternative energy research or use, all it's doing is generating revenue that the Govt desperately needs to prop up it's failed experiements in running the country.



If we couldn't afford the size of the PS, and lots of the other things that we are wasting money on, including some of the crazy EU regulations that have very little to do with reality, and everything to do with justifying jobs for the people that make stupid regulations, then maybe we'd get back to employing people in ways that are positive in their effect. Rules on the size, shape, colour and texture of bananas are exactly that, rules for a banana republic, and a luxury that we, and a lot of other people, can't afford, as they do nothing to improve the quality of the product or its use.

If that means that some of the PS workers have to start working in completely different areas, like manufacturing devices for effective use of whatever resources we find to replace oil, at least it's a positive contribution to the economy of the future, rather than an expensive drain on diminishing resources that we can't afford any more.

Communism always was a busted flush, because there are always people in the communist system that feel they should be better treated than the average, so they want larger cars, and bigger houses, and dedicated traffic lanes and all the other distortions that make them into dictators in all but name.

The system failed, but what's now happening is that we've also discovered that capitalism with too much freedom has also failed, big time, because the only difference between the 2 extremes is the manner in which a small group of people seek to manipulate the system for their own personal benefit over and above the rest of the collective, however you want to name it.

So, we need a new system, and achieving that is going to take some serious and long term changes that go to the very core of the entire existence of the species on the planet, and I'm not talking about some of the carp that has been spouted by special interests like the Green party and their ilk, so much of that was just short sighted local issues that in the overall scale of things didn't even represent a bump in the road. Too many of them were just vested interest NIMBY's, without a vision of the wider implications of their policies and attitudes. Since when has putting red tarmac on the roads and in bus stops made a blind bit of difference to how people use those roads, or park? Generated lots of jobs for the boys, producing all the regulations, but did the national economy really benefit from doing it, or were we just spending money on things that didn't make much real difference to how the nation lives and survives.

Going back to the opening point, frightened doesn't even come close, partly because of the damage that's already been done, and partly because there seems to be no idea or clue from any of the "leaders" about a realistic and viable way to rebuild a society that's discovered that there is no future in the way that it was heading.

Going back to "the old ways" is not going to be a solution either, too much of that was dominated and controlled by another vested interest, the Catholic Church, and we've seen in recent years how much damage and pain was inflicted by that organisation on the lives of countless people, and we're paying the price now for some of those excesses.

I don't have answers to some of this, far from it, but I do know that paying some broker in an office somewhere stupid levels of "bonus" for moving electronic money from one place to another at just the right moment is not a realistic use of the resources of the planet, and allowing another individual to "own" a ship load of oil for several weeks and make huge profits by speculating on it is equally immoral. In the same vein, only being able to get into certain professions by virtue of having a certain number of points at Leaving Cert is also wrong, academic ability is no indicator of a person's ability to be a good doctor, or vet for example. In the same vein, making huge profits out of areas like drugs and medical services has to be looked at in a new light, research has to be paid for, but not if it means that the end product is only available to an elite or exclusive few, and we're going that way with the present system of healthcare.

So, how do we persuade the people in power that EVERYTHING has to go back into the melting pot, and just maybe, if enough people are involved in deciding the shape of what comes out of the other end, a new Republic, might just have the capability to succeed in ways that the present one has no chance of doing.

It can't happen, but if it could, what would the long term effect be. Wipe all the information in all the banks computers. All the balances, debit and credit, gone. Change the system so that things like pensions are not based on earnings, but on need. Things like massive pensions for an elite few are gone.
Earnings based on realistic values rather than the nonsense that happens now. Are politicians worth the money they get now? No, and they certainly don't deserve by right to get the pension entitlements that they do, not when the rest of the people in the country can't get anything like the same entitlements (or allowances and the like, come to that). Social upheaval isn't even close, but it's what's going to have to happen if Ireland of the future is going to have a future as a Republic, the only other alternative is that we all learn German and become another state in the new enlarge German Republic that thinks it has the answer to solving all the problems of Europe. Merkel and Sarkozy think they have the answers. I don't think so, not if we want to be the people that we are supposed to be.

tl;dr

Callipo

I am hoping this was the only thing I posted last night.

So that film...Kill List....

shangri la

Today brings in a raft of new stealth taxes which will cost the average family an extra E2,000 a year. People cant afford this but FG is doing what the IMF tells them to do. Argentina faced the same issues with the IMFs auserity measures and their citizens lost most of their life savings due to a devalued currency.

The bondholders who the government are protecting because the EU told them to are doubling their investment on irish bonds on the backs of the taxpayer.

Enda Kenny is not a strong enough leader and his party is made up of teachers who want to keep their cushy E90k+ jobs long enough to get a great pension. They are not looking out for our best interests simply because they are doing what the EU and IMF tell them to without fail. The IMF is only concerned with getting their money back and Ireland is a small spec on the EU that can cause big problems so it is in their interest to bleed us as much as possible.

Our young have to emigrate to get work.

Our middle aged population are crippled with huge mortgages in negative equity and familys are spending huge time apart due to working abroad and seeing eachother a few days a month.

The elderly have had their pensions decimated.

Yet Enda and the boys have come back to bleed us for even more.

Bankers in state owned banks still earn over E200,000 and enda says they cant do anything about it.

In Ireland we have a relax, it will be grand attitude. It wont be grand. We are fooked right now, we just dont see it because the irish pride wont let us show how much we are suffering.

The first step is to hold the politicans accountable. They wanted the paycheck, now lets make sure they do the job right!

Join an orgasination that fits with your political beliefs and get out there and protest!

Biggins

IT IS 1 January 2012 – and that means that measures outlined in the austerity Budget for this year will kick in today.
But what can we expect?

VAT increase: VAT will increase from 21 per cent to 23 per cent.

Transport: Dublin Bus fares and Luas fares will increase by between 3 per cent and 15 per cent. Ianród Eireann fares will increase by between 3 per cent and 15 per cent.

Household charge: The new annual household charge of €100 will come into effect.

DIRT Tax: DIRT will increase from 27 per cent to 30 per cent.

Motor tax and tolls: There will be a rise in motor tax and toll charges.

Parking: The hourly rate for parking at railway stations will see an increase of €1.

Drug Payment Scheme: Monthly threshold increases from €120 to €132 to save the Government around €12 million.

Third level: Third level registration fees will increase by €250.

The measures join the other elements of the Budget that have already been put into place, including excise on cigarettes; an increase in carbon tax; an increase in capital acquisitions tax and capital gains tax.

On the first day of Budget announcements last year, Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Brendan Howlin, announced the government’s plans to cut public spending by €2.2 billion, with a €1.4 billion cut in day-to-day State spending.

The following day, Michael Noonan outlined how he was going to raise €1.6 billion.
One of the biggest ways to raise money in the Budget was through €670m coming from the long-expected VAT hike.

Also increasing this year is private health insurance: Quinn Healthcare prices will go by up to 22 per cent; and Aviva prices by up to 15 per cent in February.

http://www.thejournal.ie/budget-2012-what-measures-kick-in-today-317662-Jan2012/

ThinkAboutIt

It will be grand.

Celly Smunt

who invited captain obvious?

phasers

Let me know when you do something proactive instead of whining about it on the internet.

pragmatic1

http://tiny.cc/kjsgw

shangri la

phasers wrote: »

Let me know when you do something proactive instead of whining about it on the internet.

I have been on a number of proterts. Encouraged others to join but to have an influence we need more voices.

Pick any organisation that is looking for answers to why europe and the IMF are making large amounts of money off the irish taxpayer and make your voice heard.

AudreyHepburn

I honestly think people are becoming a little hysterical about the recession and so forth at this stage.

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Taxing the super rich only, which everyone seems to think is the only acceptable solution, will not work.

The next few budgets will be tough but they have to be. I firmly believe that if we all stop whinging and moaning and start getting proactive things will get better.

smcgiff

So much wrong with the op's post couldn't be bothered tackling his post - maybe I've caught the malaise too.

looksee

Are all your figures and arguments are as accurate as your estimation of teachers' salaries? How many heads of large schools with 25 years reckonable service are there in the country, much less in 'Enda Kenny's party' - which is what you would have to calculate to get the €90k you offer in your argument.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

Galwayguy35

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I honestly think people are becoming a little hysterical about the recession and so forth at this stage.

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Taxing the super rich only, which everyone seems to think is the only acceptable solution, will not work.

The next few budgets will be tough but they have to be. I firmly believe that if we all stop whinging and moaning and start getting proactive things will get better.

Thats easy to say if you have a secure well paid job. Some of us dont have that. I cant say if i will still have a job in 6 months the way things are going. Over €30 billion was thrown into the black hole that was Anglo so its a bit hard to take when the ordinary person is penalized for that.

HellFireClub

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I honestly think people are becoming a little hysterical about the recession and so forth at this stage.

Reality time folks, tough decisions need to be made. Enda and Co are not the cast of Harry Potter, they cannot wave their magic wands and make things better in an instance. Sacrifices must be made, we all must play our part.

Taxing the super rich only, which everyone seems to think is the only acceptable solution, will not work.

The next few budgets will be tough but they have to be. I firmly believe that if we all stop whinging and moaning and start getting proactive things will get better.

People become "hysterical" when they can't pay their bills and are being bled f*cking dry by a government of theiving ba*tards, who are careful enough to protect themselves and their PS minnions from any real austerity, while strapping it onto the backs of the rest of us. If you haven't experienced what it is like to have no money or the sheer frustration of not being able to pay your way through life, then maybe you are lucky enough to be one of those folks in a well enough paid private sector job or maybe you are one of those who are living under the fantasy incomes that the Croke Park Agreement provides for.

Regardless of what you do, it's an awful slap in the face to anyone who is experiencing very real and very crushing austerity, to tell them that they are being "hysterical"... But for the grace of God, there go I, as my Mother would say...

Ice87

IMF first thing that caught the eye,

leaves thread

Profiler

shangri la wrote: »

why europe and the IMF are making large amounts of money off the irish taxpayer.

Well now, was it the IMF or Europe who voted in governments over the last 15 years who got Ireland into this mess??.... why no! it was the roguish rebellious rapscallions the IRISH who did that...

The same people (the Irish) who can't generate enough money to pay their current day to day expenses...

The same people (the Irish) who now need to BORROW money from the IMF and Europe to pay those day to day expenses...

Should the IMF and Europe just give us the money for free? we be the begging bowl handlers to the Europe/IMF charity given how badly we've spent it so far, that would be just plain stupid. Throwing good money after bad.

Ireland is a democracy, and as such it has the Government today that it (voted for) deserves, as we had the Fianna Fail Government we (voted for) deserved over the last 15 to 20 years.

Ireland made it's own problems, we now have to suffer the consequences for those self made problems.

If you want to protest, why not protest against "your" own stupidity.

Amirani

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

dxhound2005

shangri la wrote: »

Today brings in a raft of new stealth taxes which will cost the average family an extra E2,000 a year. People cant afford this but FG is doing what the IMF tells them to do. Argentina faced the same issues with the IMFs auserity measures and their citizens lost most of their life savings due to a devalued currency.

The bondholders who the government are protecting because the EU told them to are doubling their investment on irish bonds on the backs of the taxpayer.

Enda Kenny is not a strong enough leader and his party is made up of teachers who want to keep their cushy E90k+ jobs long enough to get a great pension. They are not looking out for our best interests simply because they are doing what the EU and IMF tell them to without fail. The IMF is only concerned with getting their money back and Ireland is a small spec on the EU that can cause big problems so it is in their interest to bleed us as much as possible.

Our young have to emigrate to get work.

Our middle aged population are crippled with huge mortgages in negative equity and familys are spending huge time apart due to working abroad and seeing eachother a few days a month.

The elderly have had their pensions decimated.

Yet Enda and the boys have come back to bleed us for even more.

Bankers in state owned banks still earn over E200,000 and enda says they cant do anything about it.

In Ireland we have a relax, it will be grand attitude. It wont be grand. We are fooked right now, we just dont see it because the irish pride wont let us show how much we are suffering.

The first step is to hold the politicans accountable. They wanted the paycheck, now lets make sure they do the job right!

Join an orgasination that fits with your political beliefs and get out there and protest!

How did you find out about them if they are stealth taxes?

HellFireClub

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

Economics works by paying out what you are taking in, and borrowing for stuff that needs to be borrowed for, like capital assets, such as roads, schools, etc.

Borrowing 20 billion a year just to turn the lights on and to pay for current expenditure like PS salaries, just because you are afraid to stand up to them and tell them to their face that they are overpaid, and that the same people are not working efficiently, this isn't economics, this is bullsh*t. I see no reason why such utter and blatantly stupid public policies should not be discussed here or anywhere else.

shangri la

looksee wrote: »

Are all your figures and arguments are as accurate as your estimation of teachers' salaries? How many heads of large schools with 25 years reckonable service are there in the country, much less in 'Enda Kenny's party' - which is what you would have to calculate to get the ?90k you offer in your argument. But don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

thats the minimum TDs salary before additional income for boards, travel, ect.

shangri la

Profiler wrote: »

Well now, was it the IMF or Europe who voted in governments over the last 15 years who got Ireland into this mess??.... why no! it was the roguish rebellious rapscallions the IRISH who did that...

The same people (the Irish) who can't generate enough money to pay their current day to day expenses...

The same people (the Irish) who now need to BORROW money from the IMF and Europe to pay those day to day expenses...

Should the IMF and Europe just give us the money for free? we be the begging bowl handlers to the Europe/IMF charity given how badly we've spent it so far, that would be just plain stupid. Throwing good money after bad.

Ireland is a democracy, and as such it has the Government today that it (voted for) deserves, as we had the Fianna Fail Government we (voted for) deserved over the last 15 to 20 years.

Ireland made it's own problems, we now have to suffer the consequences for those self made problems.

If you want to protest, why not protest against "your" own stupidity.

there is a small percentage of the population whose excess led to this situation.

its everyone else who is suffering for it.

not everyone had a second home and a bmw during the boom.

Amirani

HellFireClub wrote: »

Economics works by paying out what you are taking in, and borrowing for stuff that needs to be borrowed for, like capital assets, such as roads, schools, etc.

Borrowing 20 billion a year just to turn the lights on and to pay for current expenditure like PS salaries, just because you are afraid to stand up to them and tell them to their face that they are overpaid, and that the same people are not working efficiently, this isn't economics, this is bullsh*t. I see no reason why such utter and blatantly stupid public policies should not be discussed here or anywhere else.

Your post is idealistic nonsense. Name one developed economy that borrows purely for capital purposes? That's right, there is none. It's not feasible to work that way because of the cyclical nature of economies.

What do you suggest we do about the second part? Sack the whole of the public service and throw them on the dole?

Profiler

shangri la wrote: »

there is a small percentage of the population whose excess led to this situation.

And "we the people" through our democratic majority voted them into position where they could do that, or allow their "friends" to do that...

We the people did this to ourselves, we're to blame, if you want to protest against those at fault march up and down outside your own house with your placard.

shangri la

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any discussion of the economy should be banned on After Hours. It's so tiring to see the same drivel trotted out by people who clearly don't have a clue how economies work. If a solution seems to good to be true and it's not the solution currently in place then it's probably wrong. Such a solution has likely already been visited upon by people who actually study economies for a living and they have decided that it's not appropriate.

The government has not explained themselves.

They have not even explained why they have not shared the burden with the bondholders (gamblers)

are you willing to pay an extra E2,000 a year no questions asked?

nacimroc

The fact is 1/3 of the population are the fat cat public sector workers who don't want to rock the boat as long as they keep getting huge pensions / salaries.

The second third are the pensioners who can't afford to shake things up as they would lose their pensions with any shake up of currency, devaluation, instability.

The remaining young working class are gone!! The people who need to save this country had no choice but to leg it hence no massive protests. If you were to get the 500,000+ young people who emigrated in the last 2 years back to protest how long do you think it would take to shake it up and fix the cripling public sector squandering.

I feel we are destined to stay paying the fat cats / banks / developers until we go completely broke in about 5 years before the system gets shaken up enough to make any significant difference.

HellFireClub

I genuinely hope that 2012 is the year that the hard working Irish people, and those out of work, start standing up to these f*cking spastic leeches in government and start a process of undermining this government by organising massive protests, not organised by the cockroaches in SIPTU or the ICTU, but by the completely unrepresented MAJORITY in this country, small business people, people who work for small businesses, who's jobs are under attack by this government, those that used to work for such firms before they lost their jobs, who's very basic standard of living is under attack by this government, etc.

And in case anyone says I'm not speaking from experience, I've been on the dole within the lats 3 years, I started up a small business in this country recently and I can tell you one thing, you'd get more f*cking thanks, respect and support for staying on the dole and keeping your head down and your mouth shut.

I've personally experienced the utter dysfunction that passes for a non credible job creation strategy that is being pursued by this, I wouldn't even insult the word "government" by using that word to describe the gang of utterly incompetent and selfish f*ckhounds that we have elected to run this country.

Amirani

shangri la wrote: »

The government has not explained themselves.

They have not even explained why they have not shared the burden with the bondholders (gamblers)

are you willing to pay an extra E2,000 a year no questions asked?

Legally they have no choice, we decided to guarantee all Irish bank debts remember? Our elected representatives passed it through the Dail.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0930/economy.html

shangri la

Profiler wrote: »

And "we the people" through our democratic majority voted them into position where they could do that, or allow their "friends" to do that... We the people did this to ourselves, we're to blame, if you want to protest against those at fault march up and down outside your own house with your placard.

what are you saying?

we deserve to be jobless with huge debts because of the local politican we voted for?

Profiler

HellFireClub wrote: »

I genuinely hope that 2012 is the year that the hard working Irish people, and those out of work, start standing up to these f*cking spastic leeches in government and start a process of undermining this government by organising massive protests, not organised by the cockroaches in SIPTU or the ICTU, but by the completely unrepresented MAJORITY in this country, small business people, people who work for small businesses, who's jobs are under attack by this government, those that used to work for such firms before they lost their jobs, who's very basic standard of living is under attack by this government, etc.

And in case anyone says I'm not speaking from experience, I've been on the dole within the lats 3 years, I started up a small business in this country recently and I can tell you one thing, you'd get more f*cking thanks, respect and support for staying on the dole and keeping your head down and your mouth shut.

I've personally experienced the utter dysfunction that passes for a non credible job creation strategy that is being pursued by this, I wouldn't even insult the word "government" by using that word to describe the gang of utterly incompetent and selfish f*ckhounds that we have elected to run this country.

You did this to Ireland, you are to blame!

Off you go now and take your anger out on yourself... but just remember try and not end up in hospital, as a tax payer I don't want you leeching off me anymore than you do already.

AudreyHepburn

HellFireClub wrote: »

People become "hysterical" when they can't pay their bills and are being bled f*cking dry by a government of theiving ba*tards, who are careful enough to protect themselves and their PS minnions from any real austerity, while strapping it onto the backs of the rest of us. If you haven't experienced what it is like to have no money or the sheer frustration of not being able to pay your way through life, then maybe you are lucky enough to be one of those folks in a well enough paid private sector job or maybe you are one of those who are living under the fantasy incomes that the Croke Park Agreement provides for.

Regardless of what you do, it's an awful slap in the face to anyone who is experiencing very real and very crushing austerity, to tell them that they are being "hysterical"... But for the grace of God, there go I, as my Mother would say...

I have experienced that, I know what it is to not have a penny to my name.

But I also know that becoming bitter and hysterical and cynical over it will solve nothing.