Public Libraries are they now unnecessary

CdeP · 30-12-2011 04:13PM

later10 wrote: »

In the case of young people, as I said, the same function can be carried out by schools (which only open about 35 hours per week, less than most libraries; this could be amended).

This is true but, generally speaking, schools charge for this service. This is where libraries prove essential for those who wish to work in an environment conducive to good study but can't afford supervised after-school study.

later10 wrote: »

What I felt was implied by my reference to the blue rinse brigade was that this cohort are dying off. The population that will replace them in the elderly age bracket are likely to be more computer literate, and may not be as dependent as the current elderly population on print journalism or print books.

You're right. This is, of course, positive in many regards but it's also quite a depressing prospect in others.

later10 wrote: »

Furthermore, while a library can be a fine social setting for the elderly (and going by the vocal chinwags that used to go on in mine, they are) I'm not sure it's a very efficient use of resources. If you want to provide a social amenity, why dress it up as a library? Surely a day care or community centre would be a far more efficient use of time, energy and resources.

I don't think I understand the point you're making here. Whilst the library can serve as a social setting for some, that is, as you well know, not it's primary function. The countless other services that libraries provide have already been outlined by other posters.

figarofigaro · 30-12-2011 04:30PM

Cheap laptops made in China aren't going to be around forever. I think we should hang on to the books we have.

later12 · 30-12-2011 04:35PM

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Depends on the library, surely? The ILAC library seems to have all kinds of ages, nationalities using it on a regular basis. Always packed. Maybe that's not replicated in some of the more out-of-the-way libraries, but it seems that if you offer a deeper range of services (and, of course, with a big population base) the people will come.

Yes that's quite true about the ILAC, but I think it's largely a reflection if its location.

Most libraries neither have the resources, nor the diversity of customer that the Ilac library enjoys.

CdeP wrote: »

This is true but, generally speaking, schools charge for this service. This is where libraries prove essential for those who wish to work in an environment conducive to good study but can't afford supervised after-school study.

Librarians don't come cheap.

The point is that schools and libraries are both under-used buildings. The most frequent users of libraries - school going children - could have all of their resource needs met in a school.

It is true that the elderly are probably the second most common cohort of library user, but (i) this may change as they are replaced with increasingly technologically adept older people and (ii) it is not an efficient use of resources to provide libraries mainly as social outlets, which is one of the purposes that rural libraries serve in particular.

hatful · 30-12-2011 04:44PM

Where else can you go to read that is resonably quiet without having to pay for a cup of tea or coffee? Unemployed people can go and search for jobs online. Kids can attend special events, older people can join book groups or film clubs. No matter what anyone says libraries still have value as social spaces where you don't have to part with money in order to enjoy the facilities. Going to my local library is still cheaper than buying a kindle and purchasing e-books. People should be more concerned with the inevitable and present online piracy of e-books.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 04:49PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

Can we not send them back to africa? Kill two birds with one stone.

I like the idea.

later12 · 30-12-2011 04:49PM

hatful wrote: »

Where else can you go to read that is resonably quiet without having to pay for a cup of tea or coffee?

Your living room? Otherwise, tea costs about €2. It ought not be the role of the state to have to save you from spending €2 on tea.

Unemployed people can go and search for jobs online.

Most people have the internet; unemployment benefits, at about €188 per week, ought to be able to assist welfare recipients in using a €2 per hour internet cafe.

Kids can attend special events

Why can they not attend special events (for example, art and storytelling exhibitions) in a school? The irony is that schools are usually closed when these exhibitions take place - weekends and evenings.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 04:50PM

figarofigaro wrote: »

Cheap laptops made in China aren't going to be around forever. I think we should hang on to the books we have.

Maybe not. But Kindles will though.

jam_mac_jam · 30-12-2011 04:53PM

They havent had their day, I am there about once a week, far from either a pensioner or a student. I have a kindle, I spend a lot of time on the internet yet I think borrowing books is a wonderful service. I dont see why they have had their day. They encourage people and children to read so I cant see why anyone would argue against them.

jam_mac_jam · 30-12-2011 04:54PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

Maybe not. But Kindles will though.

You can still read books if you have a kindle you know.

GarIT · 30-12-2011 05:19PM

They should be centralised, some libraries are dead and should be closed or merged with others nearby. Theres needs to be some sort of a yearly and more expensive membership scheme so the libraries can sustain themselves. We have to pay more tax, more college fees and get less state benifits, but the people that use the library are uneffected.

later12 · 30-12-2011 05:30PM

GarIT wrote: »

They should be centralised, some libraries are dead and should be closed or merged with others nearby.

This is true, but look at the outcry when Governments even try to close outlying district courthouses. Imagine the furore if it transpired that the Government wasn't going to provide the public with under-used public spaces used by cute children and the elderly.

Dionysus · 30-12-2011 06:12PM

I'm a huge fan of public libraries. I've been using them much more since last September. The online catalogue of Dublin City Public Libraries is superb. I was taken aback at the number of books it has. The library staff are consistently helpful and friendly.

The first time I went into a public library in years was last September and I couldn't believe all the audiobooks they had along with books. Documentaries, dvds - everything. You could be there forever. It's also good that we can now renew online rather than going back.

Libraries are greatly underused in Irish society.

Namlub · 30-12-2011 06:35PM

later10 wrote: »

Absolutely.

In pointing out that the libraries are mainly used by old age pensioners and young people, I'm making a point that, in my experience, they are generally only used by very identifiable cohorts of the population.

In the case of young people, as I said, the same function can be carried out by schools (which only open about 35 hours per week, less than most libraries; this could be amended).

With regards to study, the same function absolutely is not or could not be carried out by schools. Given the choice between spending hundreds of euro on a few hours per week of after school study, surrounded by dozens of my classmates with a five-minute toilet break, or going to library for free, undistracted and free to come and go as I please, I'd choose the latter. Of course the school's role could be amended, but it's highly unlikely that most teachers that most teachers would agree to work even more hours as supervisors, or that the school would charge less to make study more
accesible.

Just because you don't fit into the demographics you consider to use the library most doesn't mean libraries no longer serve a purpose or should be overhauled.

gigino · 30-12-2011 06:37PM

Libraries in many parts of the county get hardly any visitors. You can buy books very cheaply in secondhand bookshops, new bookshops or on amazon if u want to read. Its costing the taxpayer tens of millions a year to provide / heat / maintain public libraries, which practically nobody uses.

Scrap libraries + you could save the property tax twice over.;)

gigino · 30-12-2011 06:38PM

GarIT wrote: »

They should be centralised, some libraries are dead and should be closed or merged with others nearby. Theres needs to be some sort of a yearly and more expensive membership scheme so the libraries can sustain themselves. We have to pay more tax, more college fees and get less state benifits, but the people that use the library are uneffected.

well said. Increase membership fees to economical figures so they can sustain themselves .

like communist systems, public libraries are a thing of the past. They did not work. Keep 'em in universities though.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-12-2011 06:39PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

Johnny Foreigner wrote:

The African school children would have to go home after school to study as their parents work on the taxi rank.

Can we not send them back to africa? Kill two birds with one stone.

Send them back by taxi and kill three ...

Toby Take a Bow · 30-12-2011 06:48PM

gigino wrote: »

Its costing the taxpayer tens of millions a year to provide / heat / maintain public libraries, which practically nobody uses.

I must've missed the report detailing the figures of how many people per year use the library. Where abouts did you find it?

gigino wrote: »

like communist systems, public libraries are a thing of the past. They did not work. Keep 'em in universities though.

How did they not work? And if you want to keep them in universities, I guess they work in certain aspects, right?

Dudess · 30-12-2011 06:51PM

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

gigino wrote: »

Its costing the taxpayer tens of millions a year to provide / heat / maintain public libraries, which practically nobody uses.

I must've missed the report detailing the figures of how many people per year use the library. Where abouts did you find it?

gigino wrote: »

like communist systems, public libraries are a thing of the past. They did not work. Keep 'em in universities though.

How did they not work? And if you want to keep them in universities, I guess they work in certain aspects, right?

Just his usual anti public sector drivel.

That said, maybe those that are rarely used should be affiliated with libraries nearby?

Dionysus · 30-12-2011 06:53PM

gigino wrote: »

Its costing the taxpayer tens of millions a year to provide / heat / maintain public libraries, which practically nobody uses.

Scrap libraries

Oh Jesus. God Save Ireland.

44leto · 30-12-2011 07:03PM

Toby Take a Bow · 30-12-2011 07:04PM

Dudess wrote: »

Just his usual anti public sector drivel.

That said, maybe those that are rarely used should be affiliated with libraries nearby?

Personally, I liked how he linked public libraries with communism. What an argument!

There definitely should be reform, I agree completely. Dublin (for example) has experienced a huge shift in population (mainly increase). Dundrum, for example, has a lot of apartments and a HUGE shopping centre, yet it still has that tiny little library to serve an enormous area. I'm sure there are other areas which have had the opposite happening.

I can't see (proper) reform happening with our current (or previous) government though.

later12 · 30-12-2011 07:18PM

Namlub wrote: »

Given the choice between spending hundreds of euro on a few hours per week of after school study, surrounded by dozens of my classmates with a five-minute toilet break, or going to library for free, undistracted and free to come and go as I please, I'd choose the latter.

Nobody's talking about closing all libraries and replacing them with nothing.

The point is that with increased technological innovation, the library system is outdated. It could be downsized and the resources could be used to better effect elsewhere, including after school study provision for schools.

The library system spends roughly €100 million per year in operational costs.
http://www.librarycouncil.ie/annualreport2010/2-public-library-development/2-6-library-authority-estimates-of-expenditure/

I think we need to examine the extent to which this is efficient expenditure.

JuliusCaesar · 30-12-2011 07:35PM

later10 wrote: »

The point is that with increased technological innovation, the library system is outdated. It could be downsized and the resources could be used to better effect elsewhere, including after school study provision for schools.

The library system spends roughly €100 million per year in operational costs.
http://www.librarycouncil.ie/annualreport2010/2-public-library-development/2-6-library-authority-estimates-of-expenditure/

I think we need to examine the extent to which this is efficient expenditure.

I think you'll find that libraries are very good at staying up to date. There's a lot more happening in the libraries than book-lending. Yes, they provide books and a place to read books. They generally have collections of local history information. They run reading groups, where people can discuss books.

They have computers, internet access and printers. They have DVDs. They run events for kids - storytelling, arts and crafts, educational activities. They run events for adults who may have free time at lunch, in the morning, or in the evening: talks, music etc. This may suit shift-workers, the unemployed, part-timers, homemakers, and yes, the retired.

It is time to realise that not everything can be judged in purely monetary terms. I think Dicken's novel Hard Times makes this very point - way back in the 1800s. :rolleyes:

Although, for somebody unemployed, the free heating can be very welcome, and also not having to buy a tea!

later10 wrote: »

In pointing out that the libraries are mainly used by old age pensioners and young people, I'm making a point that, in my experience, they are generally only used by very identifiable cohorts of the population.
.......
What I felt was implied by my reference to the blue rinse brigade was that this cohort are dying off. The population that will replace them in the elderly age bracket are likely to be more computer literate, and may not be as dependent as the current elderly population on print journalism or print books.

I personally haven't seen a blue-rinse since I was a teenager (back in the 70s). I personally hope to keep going for a few years yet :eek: (another 30 or 40!) and yes, I'm technologically adept.

As said, libraries adapt: a library is an information centre. Does that sound better?

R.D. aka MR.D · 30-12-2011 07:37PM

I think they could be made more efficient. I use my local library quite a bit but i would love it if it had a way to search for the books they actually have like in college and then you could order them in through your account. (I went to Trinity though so technically they have every book really so maybe i'm expecting too much)

I can't believe they are spending so much on libraries! that figure could be cut. I know there are 3 women in my library who sit around chatting most of the time. Damn my private sector job where i have to at least pretend to be working at least 90% of the time!!!!

later12 · 30-12-2011 07:46PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I think you'll find that libraries are very good at staying up to date. There's a lot more happening in the libraries than book-lending.

Each library spends an average of about €28,000 per year on more new "stock" every year according to the last annual report; mainly books and DVDs. We have about 350 libraries. This is not computers or staffing costs, this is just new stock.

They run events for kids - storytelling, arts and crafts, educational activities.

Don't these kids have local schools where the same could happen out of hours?

They run events for adults who may have free time at lunch, in the morning, or in the evening: talks, music etc.

Don't these people have community halls or resource centres?

It is time to realise that not everything can be judged in purely monetary terms.

That's a very neat argument for not wanting to defend an annual operational cost of €100 million, but money does matter, and efficiency from public services is the least the public ought to expect if they are to spend such a sum of money.

44leto · 30-12-2011 07:53PM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I think they could be made more efficient. I use my local library quite a bit but i would love it if it had a way to search for the books they actually have like in college and then you could order them in through your account. (I went to Trinity though so technically they have every book really so maybe i'm expecting too much)

I can't believe they are spending so much on libraries! that figure could be cut. I know there are 3 women in my library who sit around chatting most of the time. Damn my private sector job where i have to at least pretend to be working at least 90% of the time!!!!

They have a great online service, the whole catalogue of Dublin libraries are online, you can even order and renew a book using the website.

I use it all the time, it's a very good service.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dublin%20city%20libraries&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublincitypubliclibraries.ie%2F&ei=Pgj-Tv71Doe2hQea-ry_AQ&usg=AFQjCNEBiC6WOYHBVOaKuiLv-wQ_XFPaEw

JuliusCaesar · 30-12-2011 07:56PM

later10 wrote: »

Each library spends an average of about €28,000 per year on more new "stock" every year according to the last annual report; mainly books and DVDs. We have about 350 libraries. This is not computers or staffing costs, this is just new stock.

Great! Keeps me supplied. I read about 3-4 books a week.

later10 wrote: »

Don't these kids have local schools where the same could happen out of hours?

Yes, well, I'm all in favour of schools using their resources more equitably in the service of the community.

later10 wrote: »

Don't these people have community halls or resource centres?

Jeez! Freezing community halls! Resources centres?! What are they? Oh, wait - they are libraries!

later10 wrote: »

That's a very neat argument for not wanting to defend an annual operational cost of €100 million, but money does matter, and efficiency from public services is the least the public ought to expect if they are to spend such a sum of money.

Your opinion is that libraries are a useless public service; mine is that they are an extremely useful public service - and definitely come into their own in times of recession. Shouldn't libraries spend money? Should we make do with a collection of outdated and tatty books, no computers and torn seating? Excellent way of having them unused!

Just because you don't use them doesn't mean that others don't - even if you don't like those cohorts of the population....you were a child once, and will be an OAP with a bit of luck at some time.

fleabag · 30-12-2011 07:58PM

I love my local library and I'm not one of the grey rinse brigade. It's open late 2 nights a week and there's a great selection of books, DVD's and CD's. I don't have a printer so it's handy to be able to go down and print or photocopy stuff. I went there before Christmas and stocked up with books and CDs and there were a good few in there doing the same.

Libraries are one of the signs of a civilised society and I hope they'll always be around.

parker kent · 30-12-2011 08:00PM

Dudess wrote: »

That said, maybe those that are rarely used should be affiliated with libraries nearby?

They already are affiliated with nearby libraries. Take Dublin City Public Libraries for example, it has 14 branches. They are not standalone libraries.

Unless you mean you want the smaller, less used libraries closed and merged with the nearby libraries. That would lead to space issues. They are already tight enough for space as it is and capital is extremely limited so not much hope of building many new libraries.

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I think they could be made more efficient. I use my local library quite a bit but i would love it if it had a way to search for the books they actually have like in college and then you could order them in through your account. (I went to Trinity though so technically they have every book really so maybe i'm expecting too much)

I can't believe they are spending so much on libraries! that figure could be cut. I know there are 3 women in my library who sit around chatting most of the time. Damn my private sector job where i have to at least pretend to be working at least 90% of the time!!!!

Posts like this make me sigh. You already can search for books online. That has been pointed out several times in this thread. You can also reserve and renew your books online. You can also use www.borrowbooks.ie to search the catalogues of libraries around the country and have it sent to your local library.

Your last comment is just typical rabble rousing bullshít.

I'm not going to get into this too much here, but libraries should be one of the last things to be abolished.

azzeretti · 30-12-2011 08:05PM

amacca wrote: »

if they digitized archive material etc and made electronic copies of books available for a similar membership fee ....

This is already done. Quite a lot of the public libraries have both download stations (where you can plug in your reader/player and "loan" the book for the same membership fees and privileges) and online resources allowing you to download audio/ebooks once you're a member.

A lot of libraries are used by FAS (and other training companies) to re-train and aid back to work (e-learning) schemes. This in itself is pretty worthy. They provide (mostly) free PC use, WIFI, printing, scanning and faxing for a fraction of the cost. The benefit to kids huge. Reading physical books and interacting with images, poiniting, figure following, thumbing, pointing, ripping are all vital part of kids development, all of which are difficult for younger kids to do on a handheld device.

From a society point of view they are invaluable. I visit 100's of our libraries a year, from the largest to the most remote (some part-time). For some folk, in the smaller towns/village the social interaction (some people sit reading/discussing the days paper for hours!) might be all they get for the day.

Sure, they may be argument to consolidate some of the larger ones in the cities (one small City has 3 libraries within walking distance split between County and City authorities - they're really not needed)

They'll never die though, they have evolved so much in the last few years I can only see them getting better!

Public Libraries are they now unnecessary

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