Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

Mr Alan · 27-12-2011 04:21PM

Kess73 wrote: »

In fairness Alan both you and Noodler are right in what you say, and your scenario is just as likely as his based on what we have seen from the team to date.

I think how the club approaches the winter and summer transfer windows will
be telling. We really need to start adding genuine quality to the first team now. Players that can come in and do a job rather than players whpo might be good in a few seasons. If the club takes that gamble (and buys well) then the purchases I regard as squad buys (Henderson, Downing, Carroll, Adam, and Coates) from the last two windows may make more sense as they would become cover and only be used one or two at a time rather than trying to fit a number of them into the first team at once.

Until we get CL football, the signing of sure fire star players is going to be very very difficult. A strong squad is more important IMO. Looking at our bench yesterday & it's clear we're light years ahead of where we were last season at this time.

noodler · 27-12-2011 04:23PM

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

if liverpool sold torres for 25m and bought carroll for 10m, would you be happier?

I would be happier if somebody had been strong enough to say "look, we don't have to waste the guts of a transfer budget on a player we don't need just for the sake of PR to show the fans we have replaced Torres. Lets hold onto this 35m until the summer - we have **** all to play for this season (being realistic) and so there is little financial risk assciated with holding tight until the summer)"

I would have been ecstatic with that.

DOC09UNAM · 27-12-2011 04:24PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kess73 wrote: »

In fairness Alan both you and Noodler are right in what you say, and your scenario is just as likely as his based on what we have seen from the team to date.

I think how the club approaches the winter and summer transfer windows will
be telling. We really need to start adding genuine quality to the first team now. Players that can come in and do a job rather than players whpo might be good in a few seasons. If the club takes that gamble (and buys well) then the purchases I regard as squad buys (Henderson, Downing, Carroll, Adam, and Coates) from the last two windows may make more sense as they would become cover and only be used one or two at a time rather than trying to fit a number of them into the first team at once.

Until we get CL football, the signing of sure fire star players is going to be very very difficult. A strong squad is more important IMO. Looking at our bench yesterday & it's clear we're light years ahead of where we were last season at this time.

Absolutely spot on, a good squad is the necessity for challenging fir CL or PL.

Kess73 · 27-12-2011 04:24PM

noodler wrote: »

Now I have no particular love for Roy so I'll get that out of the way.

But given the owners he had to work with, the money he had to spend etc I can not for the life of me phathom Liverpool fans who wanted him gone not having similar issues with Kenny.

At least some of the crap Roy bought was done with relatively less financial risk.

His idiotic comments and excuses (which he started making even before preseason games) went a long way towards the supporters having no trust or belief in him. If he had come across as having even the slightest bit of backbone or had not come across like a gibbering idiot in interviews then I think he would have gotten more sympathy and support.

DOC09UNAM · 27-12-2011 04:24PM

noodler wrote: »

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

if liverpool sold torres for 25m and bought carroll for 10m, would you be happier?

I would be happier if somebody had been strong enough to say "look, we don't have to waste the guts of a transfer budget on a player we don't need just for the sake of PR to show the fans we have replaced Torres. Lets hold onto this 35m until the summer - we have **** all to play for this season (being realistic) and so there is little financial risk assciated with holding tight until the summer)"

I would have been ecstatic with that.

You didn't answer my question, would you have been happy with the above scenario

noodler · 27-12-2011 04:26PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Until we get CL football, the signing of sure fire star players is going to be very very difficult. A strong squad is more important IMO. Looking at our bench yesterday & it's clear we're light years ahead of where we were last season at this time.

100% agree.

No problem with Downing because I would have signed him (maybe not at the price) if I were kenny, Adam at 9m seems a reasonable gamble to me and Enrique has been an unqualified success.

But blowing 55m on Henderson and Carroll because we can't sign five-star players is absolute lunacy. Instead we overspent on a player with 6 months premiership experience and other who has half a good season at Sunderland.

We can do better with 55m and I fear the owners will never be as generous again now that they have been burned.

noodler · 27-12-2011 04:27PM

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

You didn't answer my question, would you have been happy with the above scenario

Its a silly question.

It implies signing Carroll was a necessity.

DOC09UNAM · 27-12-2011 04:29PM

noodler wrote: »

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

You didn't answer my question, would you have been happy with the above scenario

Its a silly question.

It implies signing Carroll was a necessity.

No it doesn't, it implies liverpool wanted to buy him, which they obviously did.

Kess73 · 27-12-2011 04:33PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Until we get CL football, the signing of sure fire star players is going to be very very difficult. A strong squad is more important IMO. Looking at our bench yesterday & it's clear we're light years ahead of where we were last season at this time.

I don't disagree that a strong squad is the foundation upon which a good first team is built, but squad building has to give way to first team building at some point.

Granted it is more difficult to attract a certain level of player without either CL football or huge wages, but it can be done.

We are ahead of where we were 12 months back, both in terms of squad, league positioning, and points gotten. However we need that jump again at the very least, and to do that we have to improve the first team places and not just strengthen the squad again. If we bought four new players who were on the same level as say Coates, Henderson, Adam, and Downing it could be argued that we had strengthened the squad even further on what it is now and certainly on what it was 12 months back, but we would not, imho, be making the starting XI stronger.

I would be happy to see us bring in one or two players in January who were good enough to take starting berths in the first team and who were much better than any players we currently have for those positions, then bring in four good squad players.

Harder to get those starting players? No arguement on that. But they are what we need imho.

noodler · 27-12-2011 04:35PM

Kess73 wrote: »

His idiotic comments and excuses (which he started making even before preseason games) went a long way towards the supporters having no trust or belief in him. If he had come across as having even the slightest bit of backbone or had not come across like a gibbering idiot in interviews then I think he would have gotten more sympathy and support.

Well, lets look at non-spending issues then.

He spent 35m on Carroll but seems very reluctant to play him (some might see a contradiction here with my earlier points but I would just say I would have had no problem with a cheaper Andy, we should have just said no when the price got ridiculous).

The racism incident. All I will say is it reflects terribly on the club to support somebody in the manner they did days after the FA have made a ruling (or indpendent commission). If you think the lad was mistreated then you should wait. Again, not saying he organised it but he takes huge responsibility.

Things are better than they were under Roy. Things did look hopeless unde Hodgson, goals being leaked and problems creating chances.

Under Kenny we don't concede and we have trouble taking chances but I feel the players in the last 3rd of the pitch are his responsibility in particular (obviously they all are but he spend a fortune on them).

noodler · 27-12-2011 04:35PM

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

No it doesn't, it implies liverpool wanted to buy him, which they obviously did.

At any price?

Kess73 · 27-12-2011 04:51PM

noodler wrote: »

Well, lets look at non-spending issues then.

He spent 35m on Carroll but seems very reluctant to play him (some might see a contradiction here with my earlier points but I would just say I would have had no problem with a cheaper Andy, we should have just said no when the price got ridiculous).

The racism incident. All I will say is it reflects terribly on the club to support somebody in the manner they did days after the FA have made a ruling (or indpendent commission). If you think the lad was mistreated then you should wait. Again, not saying he organised it but he takes huge responsibility.

Things are better than they were under Roy. Things did look hopeless unde Hodgson, goals being leaked and problems creating chances.

Under Kenny we don't concede and we have trouble taking chances but I feel the players in the last 3rd of the pitch are his responsibility in particular (obviously they all are but he spend a fortune on them).

You say let's look at non spending issues, yet the first thing is the £35m spent on Carroll?

The Carroll fee I agree with you on though. While the fee is not something I would hold against the player, transfer fees are something that can be held against a manager and Carroll's fee could be the first really big mistake of Kenny's second coming. Spending £35m on one player then not playing him that often when fit is something that reflects poorly on a manager. Carrol was Kenny's choice, and it is looking more and more like a costly error. The question now is will Kenny decide to just stick with keeping Carroll or will he try to cut his losses (well the club's financial loss to be more accurate) on the player.

The other points I am not quite sure what you are saying in that I think where Kenny backed his player 100% in the Suarez case, a manager like Journeyman would more than likely have rolled over for the media and not backed his own player. Now whether one agrees or not with how Kenny backed the player is one thing, but at least he came out and did so and that kind of thing can breed confidence with both players and fanbase.

Also I could never imagine Kenny (or Rafa, Ged, Evans, or Souness) ever coming out and making stupid comments like how the supporters should not view the Merseyside derby as a special game, especially after losing the bloody derby, let alone coming oput and claiming things like wins over Bolton or some small Turkish side were "historic" wins.

The on pitch stuff in terms of under Kenny and under him are not comparable at all, and to be honest the only thing that Journeyman could be said to have beaten Kenny on is that less money was spent by him, but then again none of the players he brought in were wanted by the club only 12 months later so it could be said that his success rate in the transfer market sits at 0%.

mike65 · 27-12-2011 04:52PM

Kess73 wrote: »

On a rumour front, two of my mates who are stewards said that Luuk de Jong was a guest at the game yesterday, and that a player from the French league is rumoured to be a guest for the next game.

obligatory clip with bad music, looks pretty quick and strong, nice headers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_dWeXR67o4

Kess73 · 27-12-2011 04:58PM

mike65 wrote: »

obligatory clip with bad music, looks pretty quick and strong, nice headers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_dWeXR67o4

You are not wrong about the music. Awful bland rubbish.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 04:59PM

mike65 wrote: »

obligatory clip with bad music, looks pretty quick and strong, nice

Best part is most are scored in the six yard box .

Exactly what we need .

Kess73 · 27-12-2011 05:01PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Best part is most are scored in the six yard box .

Exactly what we need .

Have to be honest and say that when I was told that he was meant to be in the directors box yesterday that I was not blown away. Would have regarded him as a squad player type signing if we got him during the summer and still feel that way about him if he is a target. Then again he could be the type of player that would prosper with better players around him and plenty of chances.

Tusky · 27-12-2011 05:07PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

If we add a handful more goals to the team either from improved performances or an acquisition or two, we'll be there or thereabouts. That's all I want tbh.

Yep, absolutely. I agree with you totally. But....isnt that where we were last January and in the summer? And I think thats the crux of my point and other peoples points. In the summer the club was charged with adding goals to the team. It hasnt worked.

We are merely pointing out this fact. Downing, Carroll etc were brought in to add goals...but now we are saying we need a couple more aquisitions who will add goals and thus make things tick?

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Poulsen.

I don't rate carroll much, but he was realistically torres - 15million.

If they sold torres for 70 million ashley would have demanded 55m for carroll.

It's not simply a 35m transfer as people suggest.

head. bang. against. desk. We could have gotten £50m for Torres regardless of Carroll. We did not have to spend £35m on him. It could have been spent elsewhere. Jesus christ.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 05:13PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Have to be honest and say that when I was told that he was meant to be in the directors box yesterday that I was not blown away. Would have regarded him as a squad player type signing if we got him during the summer and still feel that way about him if he is a target. Then again he could be the type of player that would prosper with better players around him and plenty of chances.

Very true but I just feel that we need a no nonsense six yard box finisher .

A Rushy , Van Nistelrooy type who is not trying inside/outside foot finishing . Just there on the slide , head , arse who cares !

A natural finisher that if you know the ball lands at their feet it's a given it's a goal even before the net rattles....you know what I mean ?

Bowlardo · 27-12-2011 05:17PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Very true but I just feel that we need a no nonsense six yard box finisher .

A Rushy , Van Nistelrooy type who is not trying inside/outside foot finishing . Just there on the slide , head , arse who cares !

A natural finisher that if you know the ball lands at their feet it's a given it's a goal even before the net rattles....you know what I mean ?

bring back fowler

Leiva · 27-12-2011 05:19PM

Bowlardo wrote: »

bring back fowler

Exactly the type .. If only .

Mr Alan · 27-12-2011 05:29PM

Tusky wrote: »

Yep, absolutely. I agree with you totally. But....isnt that where we were last January and in the summer? And I think thats the crux of my point and other peoples points. In the summer the club was charged with adding goals to the team. It hasnt worked.

I don't think that's where we were last Jan at all. There was so much more wrong with the team. We'd no proper left back. We'd some of our best players wanting out (Reina). We were constantly putting in gutless performances where we were not only not beating smaller teams, we were making them look as good as us and often losing against them, our games against them were evenly matched in terms of possession, standard of play, chances, We were leaking goals constantly etc.

Tusky wrote:

We are merely pointing out this fact. Downing, Carroll etc were brought in to add goals...but now we are saying we need a couple more aquisitions who will add goals and thus make things tick?

Carroll was brought in to get goals & thus far it's not working agreed. Downing was brought in to create chances & tbh in my opinion he's upheld his end of the deal more often than not & creates a couple of really good goal scoring opportunities per match.

I think in the summer the mission was to improve the squad imo, not to improve our goal count-i think it was hoped that Carroll & Suarez would provide plenty, buys like Henderson, Downing, Enrique & Bellamy have improved our squad, our style of play & our first 11.

Knex* · 27-12-2011 05:33PM

To move on from all this Carroll talk before I start crying..

What ye make of Gerrard yesterday? Personally speaking i was delighted with his performance when he came on. He seemed a lot sharper and quicker than on his previous return and it was great to have him pinging passes around the middle again.

I like Adam as a player, think hes been great for us this season and Henderson I think could develop into a good player in time. But watching Gerrard yesterday, even for those 25mins I realised how far away they are from him in terms of talent and how much we have dropped in the midfield department since the days of Alonso, Gerrard and Mash.

I'd almost forgotten how good Stevie was at perfecting the weight of a pass, be it 5 yards or 40 and inviting people to shoot or take up good positions.

Hopefully he can push on and that he is over his injury problems cos Christ knows we need him. I just wouldn't be too hopeful we can rely on him anymore unfortunately.

Mr Alan · 27-12-2011 05:38PM

Yea, I was impressed with Stevies cameo yesterday too. Him returning & being in form for us could be a massive boost to our season.

Knex* · 27-12-2011 05:47PM

Watching Arsenal v Wolves game ATM and the thing that strikes me most is the tenacity in getting forward that the Arsenal players have. They are having an absolutely onslaught on the Wolves goal and consistently getting 5 or 6 players into the box, something sadly lacking with Liverpool for a number of years.

Real sense of urgency with them, which is helped by the high pressure and pushing of players forward. Add Van Persie consistently raining shots down Hennessy's throat and they really do look far and away from us in terms of goalscoring threat.

That said, its still 1-1

Tusky · 27-12-2011 05:48PM

I was moreso referring to our attacking signings in Jan/summer Alan, not the overall team performance. Although I dont think the team has improved much compared to the second half of last season.

On Gerrard - I was delighted with him. He tired after a while but he made a real difference to the team when he came on.

Phoenix Park · 27-12-2011 05:55PM

Bravo Wolves. Now where's my Norwich jersey

Takes some of the sting from yesterday away.

Mr Alan · 27-12-2011 05:56PM

Tusky wrote: »

I was moreso referring to our attacking signings in Jan/summer Alan, not the overall team performance. Although I dont think the team has improved much compared to the second half of last season.

The second half of last season was near title winning form iirc!

Ok our attacking signings in Jan/summer;

-Carroll
-Suarez
-Bellamy
-Downing

I'd judge those signings so far as follows;

-Carroll=poor
-Suarez=excellent
-Bellamy=very good
-Downing=average

A 1:2 success ratio in the transfer market is good for any manager, that's what people need to realise & accept I think. Carroll having been poor thus far means we need to either buy a new striker in Jan and/or bring in an alternative option to play alongside/instead of him.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 05:57PM

Nice one Wolves .

Made yesterday just that little bit less painful .

mormank · 27-12-2011 05:58PM

noodler wrote: »

Would ****ing stop with your little snide comments and selective quotes.

What the hell is wrong with pointing out how far away we are from the top? Did I not just acknowledge in the same bloody post that 4th is the aim?

Giving a manager 100m to spend in one year to spend in one year should get you more than we currently have.

Add that to the silly stance on Suarez, the poor decisions on Aqua and Raul and it isn't hard to see why there is reason to be concerned now.

Why exactly should you get more than we are getting if you give a manager 100m?? It all depends on where you are when you start spending that 100m of course. Kenny is in a much better position now imo than when he took over. If you gave Alex mcleish 100mill, for example, and told him to sign whoever he could with his team not in europe but first he has to sell Bent and Agbonlahor do you think they would be ahead of us now or something?? Some people expect too much in this life and then go onto internet forums and crib about everything. (That last part isn't necessarily directed at you, only if you feel you are on of these people)

rossie1977 · 27-12-2011 06:11PM

mormank wrote: »

Why exactly should you get more than we are getting if you give a manager 100m?? It all depends on where you are when you start spending that 100m of course. Kenny is in a much better position now imo than when he took over. If you gave Alex mcleish 100mill, for example, and told him to sign whoever he could with his team not in europe but first he has to sell Bent and Agbonlahor do you think they would be ahead of us now or something?? Some people expect too much in this life and then go onto internet forums and crib about everything. (That last part isn't necessarily directed at you, only if you feel you are on of these people)

agree with that good post, look at city this time last year, mancini had been in the job roughly a year and yet after he spent £150m on boateng, yaya toure, kolarov, balotelli, silva and milner

pl: 18 w:9 D:5 L:4 F:25 A:15 Pts: 32

as opposed to liverpool as of right now

pl: 18 w:8 D:7 L:3 F:21 A:14 Pts: 31

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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