Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

Iang87 · 26-12-2011 07:07PM

magma69 wrote: »

For the money we paid, the minimum I'd expect is for him to hold down a place in the team. At 22, he's not exactly a kid.

What exactly is your definition of a kid then.

Just cos rooney and others have come good and started all guns blazing its not a common occurrence.

Magma I present you Lucas

Tusky · 26-12-2011 07:13PM

Iang87 wrote: »

What exactly is your definition of a kid then.

Just cos rooney and others have come good and started all guns blazing its not a common occurrence.

Magma I present you Lucas

Jesus christ. We just go round and round in cricles on here dont we? Lucas was 19, didnt speak English and was coming from a different continent. He was also bought for small money to be an understudy to Alonso and Mascherano.

Andy Carroll is 22 and was bought for a record transfer fee to be our main striker and moved a couple of hours west of his home town.

The expectations and situations are totally different. You cannot compare the two situations.

magma69 · 26-12-2011 07:13PM

Iang87 wrote: »

What exactly is your definition of a kid then.

Just cos rooney and others have come good and started all guns blazing its not a common occurrence.

Magma I present you Lucas

18 is a kid.

I don't get your point, Lucas was playing decent football at 22.

Iang87 · 26-12-2011 07:17PM

Tusky wrote: »

Jesus christ. We just go round and round in cricles on here dont we? Lucas was 19, didnt speak English and was coming from a different continent. He was also bought for small money to be an understudy to Alonso and Mascherano.

Andy Carroll is 22 and was bought for a record transfer fee to be our main striker and moved a couple of hours west of his home town.

The expectations and situations are totally different. You cannot compare the two situations.

who was carroll understudy to. Ameobi, we got what we paid for then

Iang87 · 26-12-2011 07:18PM

magma69 wrote: »

18 is a kid.

I don't get your point, Lucas was playing decent football at 22.

ok 22 in my eyes is still young, but continue to abuse carroll anyway it'll help

magma69 · 26-12-2011 07:20PM

Iang87 wrote: »

ok 22 in my eyes is still young, but continue to abuse carroll anyway it'll help

Abuse? FFS :rolleyes: Get a grip.

Jayob10 · 26-12-2011 07:22PM

PHB wrote: »

I didn't find that with Hodgson. I found that Liverpool fans were all to quick to bring out the knives when they felt their manager wasn't up to it.

With any luck, the fact that it's King Kenny will mean he is somewhat immune from the incredibly impatience that I find players, owners and worst of all fans have with new managers these days.

Players like Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bought for the long-term, not the 5 month period. Ignore the prices paid for them, that's irrelevant now. They are in your squad, and all of them have shown a lot of potential in their careers and can go on to be very good players, if given faith and time to develop. Think of how people responded to Lucas, and think of him now. That's what can happen if young players are let develop.

Steve Clarke or Kenny has done wonders on the defence, with a set of players who imo are just above average, he's got the tightest defense in the league.

It's easy to look back on Rafa's time as a golden age, not least because you were winning things. But imo, by the time he had left the club, irrespective of his impressive achievements while there, the squad was in serious need of re-building.

Hodgson started that process, and was given little to no patience. Then he was replaced by Kenny, who did very well to get the squad to 6th in the league. Now, that's where you are sitting fairly comfortably. 3 points behind Chelsea, who have a much better squad again. Possibly 5 off Arsenal.

Liverpool are not challenging for the title. They will not challenge for the title next season either. However, I'd fully expect them to be in the Europa Cup next season, and fully expect them to be challenging hard for the top 4 in that season. Then, maybe then, the players like Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson, Lucas, Skrtel, Enrique, Reina will be added with another 5-6 players, and then will have a really impressive team that can do something.

Small clubs give managers no time. Panic from one manager to the next, and while maybe maintaining this position, never really progress much. Big clubs make their decision and stick with it. Live with the fact that it could go badly, but it could go well. When you make the right decision, stick with it, it has the potential to win the league. Nothing else does.

p.s. Anyone who trots out the line that Carroll cost 35 million and therefore should be amazing is being silly. Carroll cost Torres - 15 million. If Torres had gone for 40, Carroll would have cost 25. For Liverpool, it's irrelevant what he cost. Ultimately, you got him for Torres + 15. That's the price that should be talked about.

There are a few points id like to make in response to the above post.

Liverpool fans are generally more loyal than your average punter. Sometimes to the clubs detriment. Dalglish will be given plenty of time due to his status as "The King", thats for sure. Whether he will be successful or not remains to be seen.

Hodgson never got the backing of the clubs supporters because many felt he didn't have the credentials for the job in the first place, an opinion which was perfectly justified really given the dreadful start we made, the crap signings we made and also the fact he oversaw some of the worst performances seen at both home and away from a liverpool side in modern times. Getting rid was the correct decision no doubt.

Patience is a virtue but can also be a liability if you let things slide too much in my opinion. Being patient can yield long term rewards but its by no means a guarantee as some seem certain it is.

As for your point on Carroll, Henderson, Downing, Adam being bought for the long term, Carroll was bought to provide goals.

Henderson is one for the long term granted, he will improve i'm quite confident of that, and maybe in time 16million will look like decent business, maybe by sheer longevity of presence at the club alone.

Downing at £20million and 27 years of age is as close to the finished article as you can get. Its not a long term signing, and he is to be judged in terms of his immediate impact on the side. Does he fit the system? Is he flexible in terms of playing in many different roles? Is he dangerous in various different positions? Is he a goal threat? all valid questions, the answer to which has to be no right now.

Adam likewise, a few eye catching performances early on but has tailed off, but in fairness is a good squad player.

Here is the crux of the issue. You may say the price tags are irrelevant but they are not really. For every pound Kenny has spent, the owners will gauge the value they have been getting. And its not pretty reading for them if we are being honest. And it will affect his ability to spend more of their money in the future. Its a basic enough principle.

35 million for Carroll, Torres minus 15 million, whatever way you look at it, lets just call a spade a spade. At times, its like a party line being spun. The fans are not fools even if they try and be as optimistic as possible. Which is very admirable.

As for being in the Europa League next season, I think the owners will quite frankly see that as failure given their outlay. And rightly so. We were one game away from it last season so its not exactly progress if we make it this season.

Saying we have just above average players is surely damning of the current managerial set up is it not? Given that alot of the signings have been made by Kenny and Co. The back 4 and goalkeeper is our strongest unit, of which only Enrique was signed by Kenny. Granted Clarke has improved them as a unit.

PHB · 26-12-2011 07:24PM

Tusky wrote: »

I really expected better from you PHB. This is the kind of retarded economics that gets spouted out by the clueless on here. We could have taken the £50m from Chelsea for Torres and not spent it on Carroll.

The club may well have used the asking price for Carroll to set the price for Torres - but that doesnt change the fact that we spent £35m of the clubs money, in cash, on Carroll. That is what he cost.

Except, you wouldn't have gotten it. The fee only went to 50 because Chelsea were played by Newcastle. Sure, you could have taken the 40 million or whatever and spent it elsewhere, but you had to buy someone in January, on the 30th if I'm not mistaken? Beyond that, nobody would ever trust you in a deal again. Torres prob would have went for much less if it was a straight summer transfer deal. The weirdness/timing/relationship with Carroll is what pushed it so high.

Newcastle played Chelsea, and Liverpool were happy to be playing their part. Carroll's value was entirely dictated by Torres, and thus he should not be looked on as a 35 million striker who has failed to perform to that level

Beyond that, it's early days yet for Carroll.

Sir Gallagher · 26-12-2011 07:25PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

That is why I would have no objections to Carroll getting an extended run in the team...

I know, i was agreeing with you :pac:

Jayob10 wrote: »

Suarez has become the martyr though. He is untouchable now in terms of constructive criticism from 85% of our fans, by virtue of the unjust racism ban.

He has been poor for 4-5 games. 5 goals and 3 assists in the league isn't exactly a world class return considering the team is being set up to play to his strengths.

Poor finishing and being excessively selfish isn't a good combination, but we will see a different Suarez with better attacking quality around him.

Yep i agree he hasn't been playing well. I think we should just accept the ban and move on. All this t-shirt campaign and silly club statement bollox is doing us no favours at all.

th3 s1aught3r · 26-12-2011 07:29PM

PHB wrote: »

I didn't find that with Hodgson. I found that Liverpool fans were all to quick to bring out the knives when they felt their manager wasn't up to it.

With any luck, the fact that it's King Kenny will mean he is somewhat immune from the incredibly impatience that I find players, owners and worst of all fans have with new managers these days.

Players like Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bought for the long-term, not the 5 month period. Ignore the prices paid for them, that's irrelevant now. They are in your squad, and all of them have shown a lot of potential in their careers and can go on to be very good players, if given faith and time to develop. Think of how people responded to Lucas, and think of him now. That's what can happen if young players are let develop.

Steve Clarke or Kenny has done wonders on the defence, with a set of players who imo are just above average, he's got the tightest defense in the league.

It's easy to look back on Rafa's time as a golden age, not least because you were winning things. But imo, by the time he had left the club, irrespective of his impressive achievements while there, the squad was in serious need of re-building.

Hodgson started that process, and was given little to no patience. Then he was replaced by Kenny, who did very well to get the squad to 6th in the league. Now, that's where you are sitting fairly comfortably. 3 points behind Chelsea, who have a much better squad again. Possibly 5 off Arsenal.

Liverpool are not challenging for the title. They will not challenge for the title next season either. However, I'd fully expect them to be in the Europa Cup next season, and fully expect them to be challenging hard for the top 4 in that season. Then, maybe then, the players like Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson, Lucas, Skrtel, Enrique, Reina will be added with another 5-6 players, and then will have a really impressive team that can do something.

Small clubs give managers no time. Panic from one manager to the next, and while maybe maintaining this position, never really progress much. Big clubs make their decision and stick with it. Live with the fact that it could go badly, but it could go well. When you make the right decision, stick with it, it has the potential to win the league. Nothing else does.

p.s. Anyone who trots out the line that Carroll cost 35 million and therefore should be amazing is being silly. Carroll cost Torres - 15 million. If Torres had gone for 40, Carroll would have cost 25. For Liverpool, it's irrelevant what he cost. Ultimately, you got him for Torres + 15. That's the price that should be talked about.

Id agree with most of that. I want to see Kenny there next season, even if this one doesnt go as well as planned. Chopping and changing managers is not a recipe for success. Just look at Chelsea as an example

Tusky · 26-12-2011 07:32PM

PHB wrote: »

Except, you wouldn't have gotten it. The fee only went to 50 because Chelsea were played by Newcastle. Sure, you could have taken the 40 million or whatever and spent it elsewhere, but you had to buy someone in January, on the 30th if I'm not mistaken? Beyond that, nobody would ever trust you in a deal again. Torres prob would have went for much less if it was a straight summer transfer deal. The weirdness/timing/relationship with Carroll is what pushed it so high.

Newcastle played Chelsea, and Liverpool were happy to be playing their part. Carroll's value was entirely dictated by Torres, and thus he should not be looked on as a 35 million striker who has failed to perform to that level

Beyond that, it's early days yet for Carroll.

You really think Chelsea cared what we did with the money? We could have charged them £50m regardless of Carroll. At best it made it easier to negotiate a higher fee - but we still could have taken the £50m and pocked it or spent it elsewhere. They were willing to pay £50m and thats the bottom line.

At the time (and you can search my posts on this) I was screaming for us to pocket the money and spend it more wisely in the summer, seeing as there wasnt a worthy replacement available. And my opinion was vindicated when Carroll made zero impact on the team last season. And again, he is making zero impact this year.

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Id agree with most of that. I want to see Kenny there next season, even if this one doesnt go as well as planned. Chopping and changing managers is not a recipe for success. Just look at Chelsea as an example

First of all, noone is calling for Kenny's head.

Secondlly, why would you argee with him? His opinion of where Liverpool should be is totally out of tune with most Liverpool supporters. Hes saying we should get Europa League this season and the fans should be happy with that? **** that. That would be another failure of a season. With the investment that's gone on, 4th is where we should be.

And he also appears to be a Hodgson sympathiser. An opinion that should earn him no merit with any Liverpool fans.

Jayob10 · 26-12-2011 07:37PM

Tusky wrote: »

You really think Chelsea cared what we did with the money? We could have charged them £50m regardless of Carroll. At best it made it easier to negotiate a higher fee - but we still could have taken the £50m and pocked it or spent it elsewhere. They were willing to pay £50m and thats the bottom line.

At the time (and you can search my posts on this) I was screaming for us to pocket the money and spend it more wisely in the summer, seeing as there wasnt a worthy replacement available. And my opinion was vindicated when Carroll made zero impact on the team last season. And again, he is making zero impact this year.

Why would you argee with him? His opinion of where Liverpool should be is totally out of tune with most Liverpool supporters. Hes saying we should get Europa League this season and the fans should be happy with that? **** that. That would be another failure of a season. With the investment that's gone on, 4th is where we should be.

Tusky, you are wasting your breath trying to reason in fairness.

It was the same when people were screaming about 17million being spent on Glen Johnson. "We just wrote off the Peter Crouch Debt", was the line spun by fans then.

Oblivious to the fact that that was to the tune of 7 million aswell. Johnson was had for £10million if you were to listen to some of the wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Blatter · 26-12-2011 07:47PM

PHB wrote: »

Except, you wouldn't have gotten it. The fee only went to 50 because Chelsea were played by Newcastle. Sure, you could have taken the 40 million or whatever and spent it elsewhere, but you had to buy someone in January, on the 30th if I'm not mistaken? Beyond that, nobody would ever trust you in a deal again. Torres prob would have went for much less if it was a straight summer transfer deal. The weirdness/timing/relationship with Carroll is what pushed it so high.

Newcastle played Chelsea, and Liverpool were happy to be playing their part. Carroll's value was entirely dictated by Torres, and thus he should not be looked on as a 35 million striker who has failed to perform to that level

Beyond that, it's early days yet for Carroll.

What on earth makes you think Roman Abramovich gave two fúcks what Liverpool were going to spend the Torres money on?

Of course he was willing to pay £50m for Torres, Carroll or no Carroll. It's absurd logic to think otherwise and I can't believe you are buying into in PHB.

Chucky the tree · 26-12-2011 08:00PM

I'd rather not be trusted in a deal than be considered a laughing stock who can be bent over the table when it comes to negotiations.

Mr Alan · 26-12-2011 08:03PM

People really need to chill the **** out.

Tusky · 26-12-2011 08:06PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

People really need to chill the **** out.

You were saying similiar things during the final days of Rafa's reign and also during Hodgsons time in charge. Now I'm not suggesting the situation we are in at the moment is directly comparable - but you do have a long history of refusing to criticise the team or the setup, even when its warranted.

Sir Gallagher · 26-12-2011 08:07PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

People really need to chill the **** out.

I seem to remember you saying the same thing a few weeks back after a similar result Al. You can't tell me you're not slightly concerned? We're struggling to beat the absolute dross of the PL.

Jayob10 · 26-12-2011 08:09PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

People really need to chill the **** out.

wonderful contribution to a reasonable debate. You say it best when you say shag all

Chucky the tree · 26-12-2011 08:14PM

If it was up to Mr Alan we'd still have Hodgson in charge and we'd just be a few weeks off turning the corner and getting promotion back to the premier league.

flahavaj · 26-12-2011 08:18PM

If it was up to most of ye Owen Coyle or Avram Grant would be Liverpool manager if memory serves correctly.......

Tusky · 26-12-2011 08:19PM

flahavaj wrote: »

If it was up to most of ye Owen Coyle or Avram Grant would be Liverpool manager if memory serves correctly.......

Nonsense.

YouTookMyName · 26-12-2011 08:23PM

People do realise that back to back wins over the utter utter shíte that is Wigan and Blackburn would have seen us sitting level on points 3rd tonight?

It's all Charlie Adam's Fault.

flahavaj · 26-12-2011 08:25PM

Tusky wrote: »

Nonsense.

Coyle was favoured by many back when he was the golden boy. I even agreed myself.

doc_17 · 26-12-2011 08:27PM

PHB wrote: »

I didn't find that with Hodgson. I found that Liverpool fans were all to quick to bring out the knives when they felt their manager wasn't up to it.

With any luck, the fact that it's King Kenny will mean he is somewhat immune from the incredibly impatience that I find players, owners and worst of all fans have with new managers these days.

Players like Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bought for the long-term, not the 5 month period. Ignore the prices paid for them, that's irrelevant now. They are in your squad, and all of them have shown a lot of potential in their careers and can go on to be very good players, if given faith and time to develop. Think of how people responded to Lucas, and think of him now. That's what can happen if young players are let develop.

Steve Clarke or Kenny has done wonders on the defence, with a set of players who imo are just above average, he's got the tightest defense in the league.

It's easy to look back on Rafa's time as a golden age, not least because you were winning things. But imo, by the time he had left the club, irrespective of his impressive achievements while there, the squad was in serious need of re-building.

Hodgson started that process, and was given little to no patience. Then he was replaced by Kenny, who did very well to get the squad to 6th in the league. Now, that's where you are sitting fairly comfortably. 3 points behind Chelsea, who have a much better squad again. Possibly 5 off Arsenal.

Liverpool are not challenging for the title. They will not challenge for the title next season either. However, I'd fully expect them to be in the Europa Cup next season, and fully expect them to be challenging hard for the top 4 in that season. Then, maybe then, the players like Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson, Lucas, Skrtel, Enrique, Reina will be added with another 5-6 players, and then will have a really impressive team that can do something.

Small clubs give managers no time. Panic from one manager to the next, and while maybe maintaining this position, never really progress much. Big clubs make their decision and stick with it. Live with the fact that it could go badly, but it could go well. When you make the right decision, stick with it, it has the potential to win the league. Nothing else does.

p.s. Anyone who trots out the line that Carroll cost 35 million and therefore should be amazing is being silly. Carroll cost Torres - 15 million. If Torres had gone for 40, Carroll would have cost 25. For Liverpool, it's irrelevant what he cost. Ultimately, you got him for Torres + 15. That's the price that should be talked about.

I don't agree that Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Agger and Skrtel are "just above average"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-12-2011 08:28PM

I was a bit on the anti Carroll bandwagon, but to be honest its a team game. I reserve judgement on him until someone gives him decent consistant service.

daithijjj · 26-12-2011 08:28PM

If people do not think that Torres price was dictated by whatever Newcastle wanted for Carroll then really you must believe that John W Henry has lied to you.

Paully D · 26-12-2011 08:29PM

Amazing how a manager who has spent over £105m on players since his time in charge and who has failed to beat the likes of Sunderland, Norwich, Swansea and Blackburn at home, along with the likes of Wigan and Fulham away can continue to walk on water.

Dalglish is yesterday's man (even then he wouldn't have done it at Blackburn without spending a fortune, he failed at Newcastle too). He's out of touch with the modern game and spending a fortune on British based players just isn't going to cut it.

He doesn't even have the excuse of European football causing the players to be jaded, which may have been acceptable, to get him out of it.

You've got to hand it to him though, he could literally go up and piss on the fans in the Kop and they'd be falling down to kiss his shoes.

But hey, at least the football being played is better :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree · 26-12-2011 08:32PM

You're like the re-carnation of the Muppet Paully. :pac:

daithijjj wrote: »

If people do not think that Torres price was dictated by whatever Newcastle wanted for Carroll then really you must believe that John W Henry has lied to you.

Yea I do, and?

super_furry · 26-12-2011 08:32PM

flahavaj wrote: »

If it was up to most of ye Owen Coyle or Avram Grant would be Liverpool manager if memory serves correctly.......

Coyle was never talked about seriously and Grant was never talked about.

Paully D · 26-12-2011 08:39PM

daithijjj wrote: »

If people do not think that Torres price was dictated by whatever Newcastle wanted for Carroll then really you must believe that John W Henry has lied to you.

Owner in telling fans what they want to hear and said fans lapping it up shocker :eek:

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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