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Why is there no channel tunnel between Ireland and the UK?

2

Comments

  • #32
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    BigCon wrote: »
    What about a bridge?

    Only 2.3 billion for this one - didn't the government lose and then find that much recently?

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/06/30/137520889/china-opens-worlds-longest-bridge-would-you-cross-if-you-came-to-it

    no they didn't they over-estimated our debts. Theres a difference, a BIG difference.


  • #33
    robd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    colc1 wrote: »
    I'll let the title speak for itself....surely this is long overdue especially as anyone who's ever used the eurostar will appreciate how handy and quick it would be and surely being even more connected to the UK and mainland europe would be even more logical in a time of recession?

    Now that one of the fast ferries is also gone temporarily at least with the stopping of the Dun Laoghaire route for the moment at least surely its time to look into this?

    What have you been smoking?


  • #34
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    CIE wrote: »
    The airlines get enough subvention for flights they don't make money on, and they don't pay out of pocket for the total cost of airports.:D Worms don't need fusion power to create wormholes. They just need bird-proof ones...


    Cant wait to see the look on the faces of the Germans again after we spend a 100 years partying with infrastructure money while they spend 100 years being forward planning misers. Once that wormhole technology is rolled out we will be proven correct once again :pac:


  • #35
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    robd wrote: »
    What have you been smoking?

    Sounds like really good ****!

    But in fairness, the poster may be young and ambitious and massively naive. It happens. I guess it takes a while to fully learn and appreciate Irish transport history and the reality - (that's the bit most people have a difficulty with.)


  • #36
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    It makes no financial sense whatsoever. A return flight to London can be had for cheaper than a return rail ticket to Belfast. I can only imagine the ridiculous fares they'd have for a Dublin-London rail route.


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  • #37
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    While I would love to think that there is demand for such an ambitious rail link, the statistics speak otherwise! The Channel Tunnel that links much bigger population landmasses was barely viable and is significantly shorter than many of the proposed Irish Sea Tunnels. Let's not forget that the railway infrastructure on this side of the pond still leaves a lot to be desired and would more than likely need to be drastically improved to meet the recommended speed performance for an Irish Sea Tunnel. I can't see this being feasible even a century down the road.


  • #38
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    While I would love to think that there is demand for such an ambitious rail link, the statistics speak otherwise! The Channel Tunnel that links much bigger population landmasses was barely viable and is significantly shorter than many of the proposed Irish Sea Tunnels. Let's not forget that the railway infrastructure on this side of the pond still leaves a lot to be desired and would more than likely need to be drastically improved to meet the recommended speed performance for an Irish Sea Tunnel. I can't see this being feasible even a century down the road
    I think the Channel Tunnel's under-use for freight has been pointed out. It has to be a through route for such trains, not an under-channel "ferry" as it's currently being used. So don't say "statistics" when the factors that generate them are omitted.

    Incidentally, the Port of Dover sees the Channel Tunnel as a significant threat; that marks a possible turning point in terms of use for freight transport.


  • #39
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    CIE wrote: »
    I think the Channel Tunnel's under-use for freight has been pointed out. It has to be a through route for such trains, not an under-channel "ferry" as it's currently being used. So don't say "statistics" when the factors that generate them are omitted.

    I wasn't talking about the "statistics" of the Channel Tunnel between the UK and France. I was referring to the statistics of the hypothetical Channel Tunnel between Ireland and the UK. I might as well quote myself from another thread (with some hard statistics):
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    There are certain aspects of this plan which could make it viable and others which won't. Let's start with the aspects that wouldn't make it viable:

    1. The fact that the project is €15 billion in a conservative cost to construct. If the infrastructure is only serving those who go to London and back, it will obviously be unviable. Currently, the numbers doing this trip is 8,000,000 annually. It is pretty hard to grasp the idea of making the construction costs back without having high price fares attached. Let's assume the fares are €100. Even then, it would still take about 20 years at least to get the money back. Let's not forget that the these fares would also be taxed which would further delay the returns of the project cost bringing it up to 30 or possibly 40 years.

    2. Another factor making the project unviable is the bail out of Anglo Irish Bank which is one of the governments high priorities. This would also put tax hikes on the fares system of the infrastructure in question.

    3. Let's not forget the fact that the Irish Planning Board effectively took 5 years to receive the plans for Metro North and give it the green light. If this is the case and with the scale of The Tuskar Tunnel, it would probably be at least a decade before construction would begin from a conservative estimate.

    4. As pointed out by other people, the current state of the national rail infrastructure is laughable with the mostly single track nature of it ergo, making it very difficult for sub-sea trains to reach their desired speed without some sort of delay. If the Tuskar Tunnel were to be built, it would have a knock on effect whereby most of the single track lines would have to be doubled or possibly quadrupled and then dual-gauged. By extension, this would bring the price of the Tuskar Tunnel project up to roughly €30 billion.

    I am probably missing a lot of other factors against the proposal as well so feel free to enlighten me!biggrin.gif As I have said, there are certain purposes which could be attached to the proposal that might make it work. Might is the operative word in this case and a big one at that. Let me explain:

    1. If the line became part of an extension to existing inter-rail routes, it might work. The may involve making a through route on the London side of things to remove the need to change trains. There may also need to be two types of passenger train, one which negotiates it's way to popular Irish tourist destinations and one which would be express for business customers.

    2. If Galway or Shannon were to be used as one of the major trans-atlantic freight ports, the level of freight traffic could very well lead to extremely high use of the Tuskar Tunnel ergo, speeding up the rate of returns of its cost. This is assuming that other atlantic freight ports from France, Spain and England don't compete.

    3. Also, from the Irish side, we would need to give potential foreign users an incentive to use the route. This may involve anything from the construction of Theme Parks along the rail route to seaside resorts like those seen in the Balearic Islands and Spain. However, these would need to be located in key locations. Otherwise, the train may end up taking to many stops which would be off-putting to potential users.


  • #40
    colc1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭colc1


    n900guy wrote: »
    No need for a tunnel, with the fast ferries travelling at 80kph, a train would likely be 160kph max, like in the eurotunnel.

    A much much better way is to link up the boarding to the trains, so that you stop in the ferry, right on it. Somehow :)

    A big problem is not the speed of the ferry, it's the aweful connection that requires a bus or a taxi from Dublin Port for example. A special train carriage that went from e.g., Connolly to the Port, and got *onto* the ferry, and then attached to another train at the other side would be sweet. Reduce the hassle, and number of changes.

    They actually have that on the train from Germany to Denmark the train boards the ferry it works very well....


  • #41
    Tazz T
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Tazz T


    colc1 wrote: »
    They actually have that on the train from Germany to Denmark the train boards the ferry it works very well....

    They do. I was on it many years ago.


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  • #42
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    n900guy wrote: »

    A big problem is not the speed of the ferry, it's the aweful connection that requires a bus or a taxi from Dublin Port for example. A special train carriage that went from e.g., Connolly to the Port, and got *onto* the ferry, and then attached to another train at the other side would be sweet. Reduce the hassle, and number of changes.

    A tunnel would simply cut 99 minutes to probably 50-60 minutes. Save a half hour at most with acceleration and deceleration of the train. You'd save the same time by sorting out the boarding onto the ferry and exit to the train at the other side.

    Getting to a ferry at Dublin Port for boarding really is a ridiculously awful experience. Leaving the ferryport is worse and appears very dangerous. If you miss the bus then you have to walk for 30 minutes through a maze of roads packed with articulated lorries and container carriers and mostly theres no pathway on crucial sections of it either so you have to try darting down the road with your luggage while dodging terrible traffic which is banned from the rest of the city.


  • #43
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I love recessions. It brings out loads of socialists intent on suggesting grandiose schemes to create employment and economic stimuli. The best bit is that the conveniently forget, it has to be paid for.

    A Tunnel? Sorry lads but Ryanair have it sewn up. Even the Ferries are struggling.

    but Derek shurely this project could start in Claremorris.


  • #44
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    westtip wrote: »
    but Derek shurely this project could start in Claremorris.

    Collooney please! :D


  • #45
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    psychward wrote: »
    Getting to a ferry at Dublin Port for boarding really is a ridiculously awful experience. Leaving the ferryport is worse and appears very dangerous. If you miss the bus then you have to walk for 30 minutes through a maze of roads packed with articulated lorries and container carriers and mostly theres no pathway on crucial sections of it either so you have to try darting down the road with your luggage while dodging terrible traffic which is banned from the rest of the city.
    That is why we get taxis. :)
    colc1 wrote: »
    I'll let the title speak for itself....surely this is long overdue especially as anyone who's ever used the eurostar will appreciate how handy and quick it would be and surely being even more connected to the UK and mainland Europe would be even more logical in a time of recession?

    Now that one of the fast ferries is also gone temporarily at least with the stopping of the Dun Laoghaire route for the moment at least surely its time to look into this?

    Fast ferries are on the way out, truck drivers and transport unions avoid them, they are very costly to run, and they are also prone to weather restrictions except for HSS which has almost ceased in cross channel crossings. HSS is so inefficient that they are often run at 2/3ds its full engine power capacity

    If CIE / Virgin were to run a combined tunnel service to the UK it would also involve having to electrify the North Wales to Crewe line as they couldn't use DMU / DVT Diesel locos in the tunnel over that length, this alone would cost billions. Truck drivers would also avoid using the tunnel if it proved to be faster than the ferry.

    I use to detest the slow ferry crossings to the UK but now with stabilized super ferries its a pleasure compared to the old days and the hassle and restrictions with budget airlines.


  • #46
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    That is why we get taxis. :)

    I made the mistake of thinking it was an easy and short walk to the Liffey . Big mistake indeed especially when you don't know the way through the maze. I didnt think there would be roads like that with no pedestrian pathways so close to the city centre.


  • #47
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    colc1 wrote: »
    They actually have that on the train from Germany to Denmark the train boards the ferry it works very well....

    The tracks are different in Ireland, British Trains wouldn't fit on Irish tracks and vice versa


  • #48
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    al28283 wrote: »
    The tracks are different in Ireland, British Trains wouldn't fit on Irish tracks and vice versa
    There is ways and means around that. :)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw

    psychward wrote: »
    I made the mistake of thinking it was an easy and short walk to the Liffey . Big mistake indeed especially when you don't know the way through the maze. I didn't think there would be roads like that with no pedestrian pathways so close to the city centre.

    I did the walk from the Stena terminal to the Luas at the Point Depot last tuesday night it took about 30 mins taking my time, there is a path all the way if you are taking the Alexandra Road, it involves two crossings with no pedestrian signals which can be dodgy in heavy truck traffic.

    Getting up close to the idling 071 Loco with its graffiti covered freight wagons along Alexandra Road was worth the walk. :p


  • #49
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is ways and means around that. :)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw

    By both countries buying replacing all their trains so they can run on both? Sounds cheap :rolleyes:


  • #50
    Richard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_tunnel


  • #51
    colc1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭colc1


    corktina wrote: »
    just how profitable do you think the eurotunnel is?

    I'll tlll you, it's bankrupt. kept float by massive government rescue plans.

    I'm sorry but anyone with any commercial insight would realise for them selves its a total non starter.


    I'm not talking about it from a commercial point of view especially in the short term but all going well in the very distant future I dont believe flying will be within reach of regular joe in the possibly not too distant future for one thing and ferries get disrupted by weather for a start...


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  • #52
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    colc1 wrote: »
    I'm not talking about it from a commercial point of view especially in the short term but all going well in the very distant future I dont believe flying will be within reach of regular joe in the possibly not too distant future for one thing and ferries get disrupted by weather for a start...

    Of course tunnels would never be impacted by the wrong type of snow....


  • #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Of course tunnels would never be impacted by the wrong type of snow....
    True, but the tracks either end can. same result!


  • #54
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    True, but the tracks either end can. same result!

    i think thats what he was saying


  • #55
    BlueCam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭BlueCam


    corktina wrote: »
    just how profitable do you think the eurotunnel is?

    I'll tlll you, it's bankrupt. kept float by massive government rescue plans.

    I'm sorry but anyone with any commercial insight would realise for them selves its a total non starter.

    Actually... The Eurotunnel has never received a cent of money from either the British or French governments - Maggie Thatcher insisted on that. Its costs were hugely underestimated and its traffic hugely overestimated, which led to its debt having to be restructured twice, by agreement with its bondholders (a number of investment banks) and shareholders (the Eurotunnel group is listed on the London and Paris stock exchanges). The only part either government had in these restructurings was agreeing to increase the franchise period from 47 to 100 years to make the deal more attractive to investors. The tunnel has turned a profit on operations since 2007 and this is increasing exponentially year-on-year (as had been foreseen, it just came later than planned).

    There would be no great impediment to the financing of an Irish Sea tunnel. The real impediment would be traffic flows since low-cost airlines currently have a stranglehold over the Ireland-UK market, and also the necessity to construct a long high-speed line through Wales on the UK side. That latter one will be partly solved in 10-20 years when the UK rolls out its High Speed 2 line; the former will probably take 30-40 years, as oil begins to push up air fares and Dublin and London airports hit their capacities.


  • #56
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    did i say the governments paid for the rescue plan?


  • #57
    BlueCam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭BlueCam


    corktina wrote: »
    did i say the governments paid for the rescue plan?

    Er, you said they were "government rescue plans"... which they weren't. The company was placed into bankruptcy protection twice, but this was a court process - like any normal bankruptcy.


  • #58
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    colc1 wrote: »
    Why is there no channel tunnel between Ireland and the UK Britain?

    I could see a bridge being built in the distant future going between the Antrim coast over to Galloway on the south-west of Scotland, I would invisage a road/dual carriageway as being the obvious option, (instead of a rail corridor) which would have the complication of different rail guages, with 1600 mm (5'3") used in ROI/NI and 1435 mm (4' 8.5") guage as used in Britain! (tunnelling would be too expensive).

    The thing that might spark off the reality is if Scotland leaves (or doesn't leave) the UK, if she does exit the UK then there may very well be the will to make closer links with the island of Ireland via the bridge, and on the other hand if Scotland stays in the UK then Westminster may bow to any & every request, including the funding of the bridge :))

    Either way, its a long term (but nice) pipe dream . . .


  • #59
    Rational Plan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Rational Plan


    It depends on what the traffic levels were and the costs involved. With the advent of low cost airlines the passenger market has mostly transferred to the airlines. I imagine the biggest flows are to London and Southern England.

    The main reason to build such a route would be for freight transport.

    The two routes to be considered would be Dublin/Hollyhead (60 miles) or Donaghadee/Port Patrick (20 miles).

    From an access to markets passenger perspective Dublin Hollyhead is the best. There is almost no doubling back for most trips as most of England is South of Hollyhead and Dublin is pretty much the natural focus for Ireland.

    The Bangor Stranraer route is technically easier due to it's shortness and has other advantages, mainly political. As long as the UK hangs together it would be easier for Britain to finance.

    The problem is cost. I can't see you getting the shorter route built for less than £20 billion. New high speed rail lines and more tube lines for London will have a higher political priority.


  • #60
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The Channel Tunnel was built in part because the ferries and ferryports from UK to Belgium and France were chockkers. This is clearly not a problem in Ireland. Better to improve the linkages to the ferries and bolster their viability as a backstop to air service than worry about replacing them with a tunnel far longer than the Channel (Rosslare) or through an munitions dump (Larne) or even buying Talgo-bogied sets to go on ferries which when they come out of Rosslare will then beetle across Wexford Quay or the Barrow Bridge at 5mph. :rolleyes:


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  • #61
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The Channel Tunnel was built in part because the ferries and ferryports from UK to Belgium and France were chockkers. This is clearly not a problem in Ireland. Better to improve the linkages to the ferries and bolster their viability as a backstop to air service than worry about replacing them with a tunnel far longer than the Channel (Rosslare) or through an munitions dump (Larne) or even buying Talgo-bogied sets to go on ferries which when they come out of Rosslare will then beetle across Wexford Quay or the Barrow Bridge at 5mph. :rolleyes:
    Don't you mean "re-improve" the ferry linkages...?

    And something tells me that we may need to start a separate thread on how to elevate the railway above the Wexford quays (the grades wouldn't necessarily be prohibitive from the station to the harbour bridge along Redmond Place). I wouldn't like to see anyone in Leinster House propose a re-route of the railway parallel to the N25 bypass as an alternative...


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