Is it a good thing that the Gardai are not armed?

Galtee · 15-12-2011 02:52PM

Gardai shouldn't be allowed to carry guns. Instead, the legal system should be looked at and tougher laws introduced for criminals being in possession of a firearm so that the gardai wouldn't have to risk innocent lives just so they can ensure there's a greater sentence waiting for a criminal.
Ffs, when you walk into a post office with a firearm there should be only one reason for this in the eyes of the law and a sentence should be handed out accordingly.

Wile E. Coyote · 15-12-2011 02:56PM

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Unless you're Tom Cruize :cool:

Or the A-Team. Rumour has it in 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground.

15-12-2011 02:57PM

Doinker wrote: »

By using non-lethal weapons - taiser, stun-guns, stun grenade, tear gas, plastic bullets etc. Thats if you meassure success by not killing people.

And you've evaluated all these, decided which would mean the absolute minimum risk to the general public for this particular situation given the information they had prior to the incident?

seamus · 15-12-2011 02:58PM

Doinker wrote: »

By using non-lethal weapons - taiser, stun-guns, stun grenade, tear gas, plastic bullets etc. Thats if you meassure success by not killing people.

Non-lethal weapons are suprisingly ineffective against guns.
In fact, using non-lethal weapons against an armed assailant is even more dangerous than using lethal weapons, as the assailant is still free to fire their weapon in fright, anger or panic, and may result in injuries to bystanders that would otherwise not have occurred.

Wile E. Coyote · 15-12-2011 02:59PM

Doinker wrote: »

By using non-lethal weapons - taiser, stun-guns, stun grenade, tear gas, plastic bullets etc. Thats if you meassure success by not killing people.

Hahahahaha we can barely afford to equip our police force with stab vests and your talking about stun grenades and tear gas. Any idea how close you have to be to use a taser and what happens when you shoot an armed man with a plastic bullet other than him shooting back with real ones?

Antomus Prime · 15-12-2011 03:07PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Or the A-Team. Rumour has it in 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground.

Today they survive as soldiers of fortune........... If you have a problem, and If you can find them.......... maybe you can hire, The A-Team!!!!

But as awesome as they are they cant see into the future like Cruise did in minority report

Galtee · 15-12-2011 03:11PM

LOL, I don't know why the A-Team were never brought in to run the country, they always seemed to be able to solve any crime in under an hour when you take off the ad time. Except maybe the odd time they ran over into a different episode but I'd settle for crime stopped in under 2 hours at worst.

Doinker · 15-12-2011 03:59PM

28064212 wrote: »

And you've evaluated all these, decided which would mean the absolute minimum risk to the general public for this particular situation given the information they had prior to the incident?

No I haven't.

You asked for a suggestion for a plan for a better outcome, to that which occured.

Are you able to dismiss the suggestion of the use of non-lethal weapons in this case?

15-12-2011 04:02PM

They should not be armed, at all.

15-12-2011 04:04PM

Doinker wrote: »

No I haven't.

You asked for a suggestion for a plan for a better outcome, to that which occured.

No I didn't. I asked for a plan, not a suggestion. A detailed breakdown investigating every possible option using all available data to come up with the best approach

Doinker wrote: »

Are you able to dismiss the suggestion of the use of non-lethal weapons in this case?

I didn't dismiss them. I think the gardaí are better placed to make the decisions, instead of a poster on an internet forum who doesn't have access to their information second-guessing them after the event

Doinker · 15-12-2011 04:07PM

seamus wrote: »

Non-lethal weapons are suprisingly ineffective against guns.
In fact, using non-lethal weapons against an armed assailant is even more dangerous than using lethal weapons, as the assailant is still free to fire their weapon in fright, anger or panic, and may result in injuries to bystanders that would otherwise not have occurred.

Point taken.

Depends on what was used. If that armed robber was shot with four plastic bullets, I don't think he'd get getting up too fast.

Also, in this case the Gardai knew the robbery was taking place, the opportunity was there to clear the street of bystanders etc.

I also meant that non-lethal weapons could be used, with the back up of lethal weapons.

BrokenArrows · 15-12-2011 04:41PM

If the Gardai were an armed force they might eventually get a little respect.

As is guaranteed to happen police shootings would rise but the question you need to ask is whether thats a good thing or not.

Some scumbag attacks a cop with a knife and the guards only defense is his training. If the Guard was able to pull a gun (not shoot) it would instantly stop the scumbag in his tracks and the Guard would be able to make an arrest.

Wile E. Coyote · 15-12-2011 05:53PM

Doinker wrote: »

Point taken.

Depends on what was used. If that armed robber was shot with four plastic bullets, I don't think he'd get getting up too fast.

Also, in this case the Gardai knew the robbery was taking place, the opportunity was there to clear the street of bystanders etc.

I also meant that non-lethal weapons could be used, with the back up of lethal weapons.

There's your first problem right there. In such a serious situation like that you can't have such an uncertain outcome. What happens if he does get back up or simply starts shooting while on the ground?

And Im sure the area was clear of bystanders but their own lives were still at risk. At the end of the day if the gunman had put down the gun when he was instructed he'd still be alive and so would his friend. Then there would have been no need to use lethal or non-lethal force.

Antomus Prime · 15-12-2011 06:02PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

There's your first problem right there. In such a serious situation like that you can't have such an uncertain outcome. What happens if he does get back up or simply starts shooting while on the ground?

And Im sure the area was clear of bystanders but their own lives were still at risk. At the end of the day if the gunman had put down the gun when he was instructed he'd still be alive and so would his friend. Then there would have been no need to use lethal or non-lethal force.

Bingo!!!!

Manic Moran · 15-12-2011 06:03PM

triseke wrote: »

I don't think the guards should be armed with pistols. The tendency to use them would be higher, as obviously they are more available.

The rank and file guards have been unarmed since the founding of the state, even through some very difficult and dangerous times. I don't think they need to start carrying guns now.

Nice principle, until you end up being the Gard suffering the nasty effect of being that rare statistic, in which case the 'need' for a firearm suddenly changes from being academic to rather urgent.

Considering how many countries in Europe arm their police, vs how many don't seem to be suffering any particular ill-effects from it, I think it's a non-argument. If the issue is that the organisation which the State and the citizens of the State have entrusted utterly with the ensuring of civil order cannot be considered as responsible as, say, that of the Belgians or Germans, then the nation's problems are far more severe than simply wondering about if they might become a bit trigger happy.

NTM

Galtee · 15-12-2011 06:35PM

I wonder how many such situations there have been if ever where an unarmed guard has been shot? I honestly don't know but can't remember any off hand. All situations where there are firearms involved are tended to by the branch and they are suitably equipped. That particular system seems to work fine as it is. I would stipulate however that I believe there may be a requirement for tougher law with regard to possession which may deter some criminals from carrying guns. Also, the guards won't have to wait until a crime is carried out before they can be sure that a long sentence is handed out to a criminal, as it stands criminals seem to have to be caught spending their stolen money on prostitutes with guns in stolen cars before they can get done for a crime.

kincsem · 15-12-2011 06:47PM

RATM wrote: »

I remember years ago in my home town an armed detective finished his night shift and went down to the early house for a few jars. When in the toilets he left his gun on the cistern when taking a crap and then walked off without his piece.

A few minutes later a pissed regular walked in, saw the gun and decided to fire a shot of for the craic- into the toilet bowl. The whole bowl smashed and water flooded everywhere.

So to answer your question OP, no the Gardai should not be armed.

Not flushing can be annoying to the next user.

klong · 15-12-2011 06:47PM

Galtee wrote: »

I wonder how many such situations there have been if ever where an unarmed guard has been shot? I honestly don't know but can't remember any off hand. All situations where there are firearms involved are tended to by the branch and they are suitably equipped. That particular system seems to work fine as it is. I would stipulate however that I believe there may be a requirement for tougher law with regard to possession which may deter some criminals from carrying guns. Also, the guards won't have to wait until a crime is carried out before they can be sure that a long sentence is handed out to a criminal, as it stands criminals seem to have to be caught spending their stolen money on prostitutes with guns in stolen cars before they can get done for a crime.

Take a look through http://www.garda.ie/honour/default.aspx

kincsem · 15-12-2011 06:50PM

klong wrote: »

Take a look through http://www.garda.ie/honour/default.aspx

This supports not arming Gardai.

On 25th September, 1946, Garda James Byrne and Garda Daniel Joseph Duff were on armed protection duty on a farm at Mount Catherine, Pallasgreen, Co. Limerick. Both men appeared to be on friendly terms when leaving the Station.

Garda Daniel Joseph Duff subsequently stated that an argument arose between them regarding the performance of the protection duty to which they were allocated. The argument became very heated and Garda Duff alleged that Garda Byrne made a movement as if to draw his gun. Garda Daniel Joseph Duff drew his revolver and shot Garda Byrne twice. Garda Byrne died at the scene.

At the Central Criminal Court on 21st November, 1946 Garda Daniel Joseph Duff was convicted of the murder of Garda James Byrne. He was sentenced to death, however this was commuted to Penal Servitude for life.

Sofa King Great · 15-12-2011 07:02PM

kincsem wrote: »

This supports not arming Gardai.

On 25th September, 1946, Garda James Byrne and Garda Daniel Joseph Duff were on armed protection duty on a farm at Mount Catherine, Pallasgreen, Co. Limerick. Both men appeared to be on friendly terms when leaving the Station.

Garda Daniel Joseph Duff subsequently stated that an argument arose between them regarding the performance of the protection duty to which they were allocated. The argument became very heated and Garda Duff alleged that Garda Byrne made a movement as if to draw his gun. Garda Daniel Joseph Duff drew his revolver and shot Garda Byrne twice. Garda Byrne died at the scene.

At the Central Criminal Court on 21st November, 1946 Garda Daniel Joseph Duff was convicted of the murder of Garda James Byrne. He was sentenced to death, however this was commuted to Penal Servitude for life.

That was one incident in 65 years ago.

This is a reason enough to arm them:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rise-in-garda-death-threats-causes-alarm-2960381.html

bedrock#1 · 15-12-2011 07:06PM

jester77 wrote: »

And if they weren't shot the first guy could have took off in car and caused a serious accident, and the second guy might have stabbed someone with the knife he was holding.

Minority Report anyone?

Antomus Prime · 15-12-2011 07:13PM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

This is a reason enough to arm them:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rise-in-garda-death-threats-causes-alarm-2960381.html

Its reason enough for anyone who values the lives of the men and women who are supposed to be there for our protection, and the danger is rising out there so the guards should be provided with the necessarily tools to provide the protection. My opinion anyway!

Galtee · 15-12-2011 07:18PM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

That was one incident in 65 years ago.

This is a reason enough to arm them:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rise-in-garda-death-threats-causes-alarm-2960381.html

I still don't believe that it's reason enough. How many unarmed guards have been shot or even in a situation whereby they were threatened by a firearm and subsequently got shot whilst on the beat?

kincsem · 15-12-2011 07:20PM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

That was one incident in 65 years ago.

This is a reason enough to arm them:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rise-in-garda-death-threats-causes-alarm-2960381.html

On 21st January, 1948, Chief Superintendent Gantly was leading a party of Gardai from the Detective Branch, Dublin Castle in a search for escaped prisoners at the Hammond Lane Foundry, Dublin when he was accidentally shot.
At 10.25 am on 17th April, 1944, Garda Harrington was on duty in Nenagh Garda Station when he was approached by another Garda of the station party who then produced a revolver and shot Garda Harrington dead and then shot himself dead.

Four dead.

pragmatic1 · 15-12-2011 07:47PM

So more scumbags might die. Dont see the negatives here at all.

bedrock#1 · 15-12-2011 08:12PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

So more scumbags might die. Dont see the negatives here at all.

Hypothetical situation - not all too uncommon though

You lose the keys to your house - on returning home that evening you decide to let yourself in through the back door. As you are climbing the wall a garda car drives by. Garda sees you hopping the wall - thinks "scumbag"....

He follows you over the wall, he's nervous, carrying a gun now drawn. You have something in your hand he perceives to be a weapon and shoots you...

What then?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/307813

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/05/police-shooting-james-ashley

Graphic below

http://www.noob.us/miscellaneous/police-shoot-unarmed-man-81-times/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20124838/police-seeking-robber-kill-unarmed-innocent-man/

pragmatic1 · 15-12-2011 08:25PM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

Hypothetical situation - not all too uncommon though

You lose the keys to your house - on returning home that evening you decide to let yourself in through the back door. As you are climbing the wall a garda car drives by. Garda sees you hopping the wall - thinks "scumbag"....

He follows you over the wall, he's nervous, carrying a gun now drawn. You have something in your hand he perceives to be a weapon and shoots you...

What then?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/307813

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/05/police-shooting-james-ashley

Graphic below

http://www.noob.us/miscellaneous/police-shoot-unarmed-man-81-times/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20124838/police-seeking-robber-kill-unarmed-innocent-man/

Meh. Break a few eggs to make an omelette.

K-9 · 15-12-2011 08:33PM

kincsem wrote: »

This supports not arming Gardai.

On 25th September, 1946, Garda James Byrne and Garda Daniel Joseph Duff were on armed protection duty on a farm at Mount Catherine, Pallasgreen, Co. Limerick. Both men appeared to be on friendly terms when leaving the Station.

Garda Daniel Joseph Duff subsequently stated that an argument arose between them regarding the performance of the protection duty to which they were allocated. The argument became very heated and Garda Duff alleged that Garda Byrne made a movement as if to draw his gun. Garda Daniel Joseph Duff drew his revolver and shot Garda Byrne twice. Garda Byrne died at the scene.

At the Central Criminal Court on 21st November, 1946 Garda Daniel Joseph Duff was convicted of the murder of Garda James Byrne. He was sentenced to death, however this was commuted to Penal Servitude for life.

Similar cases happen in armies so....................

argosy2006 · 15-12-2011 08:41PM

Irish force are not very professional, Things get personal with the scumbags,They take things personally ,when they should be more pro
And if there were armed they would shoot alot of them,

Witcher · 15-12-2011 08:47PM

They should get something more than they already have, a taser maybe but not a firearm. Expanding the RSU system would be more beneficial.

Is it a good thing that the Gardai are not armed?

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