Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

DublinWriter · 07-12-2011 05:27PM

I thought operation Free Flow was cancelled?!?

Ickle Magoo · 07-12-2011 05:29PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It seems to be on-par with the rest of Europe.

Better than Ireland it would appear...

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 05:36PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Better than Ireland it would appear...

Yup, who'd have thunk it.

Ickle Magoo · 07-12-2011 05:38PM

Wikipedia in 2010?

carfiosaoorl · 07-12-2011 05:52PM

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Ormus · 07-12-2011 05:55PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Who is to say that human trafficing wouldn't have increased by 75% if prostitution hadn't been legalised.

Also, it's worth noting that almost 82% of statistics are false.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 05:56PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Sucks to be German I guess...?

Dublin_Gunner · 07-12-2011 06:16PM

Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary

What a coincidence that he hails from the same place as the Garda he solicited was trained!

Unavailable for Comment · 07-12-2011 07:01PM

danniemcq wrote: »

shoulda asked to film it, be classed as making a porno movie not picking up a hooker and therfore be immune from prosicution and if you are brought to court or whatever you can then sue the state for defaming your character.

Hiring a hooker to make a homemade porn movie doesn't really say much for your character re defamation!! I don't think you'd do well looking for damages there. Also there's still paid sex involved. Doesn't matter if there's a hundred cameras it's still solicitation just with really good evidence against you!.

What you're thinking of I'd say is asking the girl if she's willing to take some arty naked photos in a hotel or whatever, completely hands off. There's no sexual act at all so not prostitution. Most police women obviously don't want to get naked for their job so will just immediately say no thanks which is how you know not to go with that one.

MyKeyG · 07-12-2011 07:14PM

latenia wrote: »

I presume the cops were young healthy specimens

Not if they were trying to pass as Limerick prostitutes.

Spunge · 07-12-2011 11:43PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

lies

The_Thing · 07-12-2011 11:53PM

I think it is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age that the Gardai's time would be wasted on this when they are serious crimes being commited almost daily throughout Ireland - houses robbed, old folks terrorised, tiger kidnappings etc. My own sister's house was robbed a few months ago, her engagement and weddings rings stolen and I'd much rather see Garda manpower be used in catching the scumbags responsible.

I'd be really interested in seeing if any of the men arrested had previous convictions - I doubt that the teacher involved was in and out of prison like most of the scum walking our streets.

In 2010 Canadian laws banning prostitution were overturned when Judge Susan Himel declared that the laws violated a constitutional guarantee of "the rights to life, liberty and safety".

She went on to say:

"I find that the danger faced by prostitutes greatly outweighs any harm which may be faced by the public," Himel said.

"These laws, individually and together, force prostitutes to choose between their liberty interest and their right to security of the person as protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms."

Here in Ireland Ruhama have hijacked the issue of human trafficking (for which there are already laws in place) to further their own religious \ moralistic agenda with the aim of having it enshrined in Irish law. They don't want to accept that most of the people involved in in-door prostitution have made an informed choice and are working in the sex industry of their own free will.

Their own website states:

"Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution."

Nobody should be in any doubt that the Catholic church is involved when there are three nuns on Ruhama's board of directors, their "long history of involvement" includes running the Magdalene laundries and we all know how that turned out.
Irish Times Link

You never hear of Ruhama campaigning to have sex shops closed down, why not? Afterall the shops are directly profiting from sex. Ruhama know that if they went after the sex shops right now that they would be rightly laughed at, but given who they are I'd be suprised if the shops weren't on their to-do list. If they are succesful now in having their morals enshrined into law I believe they will be back in a few years time with more of the same.

I'm not in favour of red-light districts as such, but I think that what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is none of Ruhama's or the Government's business and that Garda resources (limited as they are) could be put to much better use elsewhere.

Victor · 07-12-2011 11:58PM

scholar007 wrote: »

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

The risk group would be adult men who are capable of getting about and have money. It is a small sample, but men in their late twenties and 45-54 and early sixties are most represented.

Sonnenblumen · 08-12-2011 12:15AM

The oldest game in the book is caught out using the oldest trick.
Publication of details will most certainly involve more pain?

The_Thing · 08-12-2011 12:18AM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

.....The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

The vast majority of the women working in the porn industry (both amateur and professional) are doing so of their own free will so why would the figures involved in prostitution be any different? More women choose the latter because they don't want the exposure(literally), but nonetheless have chosen to work in the sex industry.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 12:21AM

The_Thing wrote: »

...but I think that what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is none of Ruhama's or the Government's business...

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

oirishguy · 08-12-2011 12:38AM

I live in a country where prostitution is legal, right across from my bedroom window there is a brothel. If people want to pay for sex and priovided that it is not human trafficking, is underage or involves animals then so what. They are consenting adults. It is a profession that has been around before laws were even written and will remain no matter what they do. Naming and shaming these guys was ridiculous, it has only caused harm to their families, innocent people in this, for what, so the Gardai can look like they have taken their heads out of their arses and done something for a change. Why not focus the taxpayers money on something like tackling a criminal organization, arresting drug dealers etc instead of making examples of people, who apart from this indiscretion, are normal members in society.

anonymous_joe · 08-12-2011 12:41AM

oirishguy wrote: »

I live in a country where prostitution is legal, right across from my bedroom window there is a brothel. If people want to pay for sex and priovided that it is not human trafficking, is underage or involves animals then so what. They are consenting adults. It is a profession that has been around before laws were even written and will remain no matter what they do. Naming and shaming these guys was ridiculous, it has only caused harm to their families, innocent people in this, for what, so the Gardai can look like they have taken their heads out of their arses and done something for a change. Why not focus the taxpayers money on something like tackling a criminal organization, arresting drug dealers etc instead of making examples of people, who apart from this indiscretion, are normal members in society.

Plenty of Irish people live near brothels, they just don't know it, and they're illegal.

That's the danger of activities like this.

MyKeyG · 08-12-2011 12:45AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does. This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

70smary · 08-12-2011 12:49AM

i agree with you 100 %

oirishguy · 08-12-2011 01:00AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does. This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

You hit the nail on the head, you have 21 men, and like you one of whom I know and have always had great respect for and regardless of what happened I still do.

No one knows the reason behind it, it's easy to say they are dirty men etc but who really knows what's going on behind the scenes? Some of them could have had no luck in relationships, some may have been lonely, some just horny (they are human), their spouse could be Ill and unable to fill the need, who knows. People are always quick to judge, they see only the crime and not the motive behind it. The guards could have being putting resources to better use, I couldn't agree more with you more.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:03AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

How do you know which is which tho? How can we tell that the prostitute being procured is drug free, pimp free, not trafficked or coerced in any way, shape or form? Given the issues they have even in countries where prostitution is legal and regulated, I don't think you can.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does.

That's lovely and all but I think it's more than a little naive/blinkered to waive the associations one has to the other in reality...

MyKeyG wrote: »

This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

They broke the law, it may be a law you don't agree with but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as criminals when they break the law.

MyKeyG wrote: »

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

I don't disagree with the sentiments - I can't help but think 60 men in Limerick being arrested for solicitation is really not going to make a dent in the social and human issues related to prostitution...but then it IS better than sticking fingers in ears and convincing ourselves that men prowling the streets to find women they can pay to have sex with them is unrelated to a whole raft of issues and just good old adult fun...

El Weirdo · 08-12-2011 01:10AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

They broke the law, it may be a law you don't agree with but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as criminals when they break the law.

Would you have said the same about homosexuals pre-1993?

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:11AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Would you have said the same about homosexuals pre-1993?

Ooooh, spot the strawman...

El Weirdo · 08-12-2011 01:17AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Ooooh, spot the strawman...

How is that a strawman?

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:19AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

How is that a strawman?

How isn't it?

El Weirdo · 08-12-2011 01:20AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How isn't it?

I was just asking a question.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:21AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

I was just asking a question.

Maybe google strawman?

El Weirdo · 08-12-2011 01:33AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Maybe google strawman?

Please don't patronise me.

Homosexuals were breaking the law pre-1993.

If you think it's ok that these men should be treated as criminals for breaking the law then it follows that you think that it was ok for homosexuals to be treated the same for breaking the law.

Mickjg · 08-12-2011 01:33AM

One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.

Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

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