Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

scholar007 · 07-12-2011 03:49PM

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Does anyone know what the legal position might be?

I'd say the Ban Garda would be on top.

SIMPLYTHE · 07-12-2011 03:50PM

Ormus wrote: »

Maybe we should take a vote.

Illegal - Who would like prostitution to be controlled by criminals?

Legal - Who would like prostitution to be regulated?

Are there any people who think that making prostitution illegal will result in there being no more prostitution?

Obviously you haven't read up on Amsterdam - please see above. In short, it's run by criminal gangs. Your above summarised approach does not reflect reality. Honestly, it makes really interesting reading, it's not what you'd expect...

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 03:53PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

The article clearly states that most police investigations on human trafficing concern legal sex businesses.

Granted, I clearly missed that.

But of course a failing to regulate the industry properly is not representative of the industry itself.

I'd like to see numbers on Ireland, it is legal here afterall so the claims presented by the anti-legalisation group should be supported by some findings.

SIMPLYTHE · 07-12-2011 03:55PM

Seachmall wrote: »

We're talking about legal prostitution, Amsterdam, like every country in the world, has a huge underground sex market. There's no indication there that they operated as legal prostitutes.

I'm not being pedantic on this matter. The red light district is huge real estate in the industry (obviously) and those windows aren't cheap and the prostitutes that operate in them are absolutely regulated. The words in the articles linked also indicate the women weren't regulated
All 45 victims are women, who have likely been put to work in the sex industry.

Like I said, the market will always be there and people will be there to satisfy it. Regulation on these matters is always better than criminals having control of it.

We wouldn't have an increase because it's already legal.

sorry, but you are being pedantic. Ireland's situation currently is not commensurate with the likes of Amsterdam or Germany. Once Prostitution is fully legalised, it is extremely hard to regulate -hence human trafficking, gang and drug activity balloon.

You seem to presume that fully legalising it will mean that it is completely controlled by the State and it will be fully regulated and criminal involvement will decrease... This has not been successfully done anywhere else - why in God's name would you presume that it could be done successfully in IRELAND of all places after we've cocked up just about everything else we've tried in the last while (excuse the pun).

SIMPLYTHE · 07-12-2011 03:59PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Granted, I clearly missed that.

But of course a failing to regulate the industry properly is not representative of the industry itself.

QUOTE]

Surely the fact that numerous countries have tried to regulate fully- legalised prostitution and have failed horrendously is representative of the industry itself though?

Ormus · 07-12-2011 03:59PM

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Obviously you haven't read up on Amsterdam - please see above. In short, it's run by criminal gangs. Your above summarised approach does not reflect reality. Honestly, it makes really interesting reading, it's not what you'd expect...

I was being sarcastic.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 04:00PM

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Once Prostitution is fully legalised, it is extremely hard to regulate -hence human trafficking, gang and drug activity balloon.

You seem to presume that fully legalising it will mean that it is completely controlled by the State and it will be fully regulated and criminal involvement will decrease... This has not been successfully done anywhere else - why in God's name would you presume that it could be done successfully in IRELAND of all places after we've cocked up just about everything else we've tried in the last while (excuse the pun).

Prostitution here isn't tolerated, it's not decriminalized, it's completely 100% legal. You can't get more legal than legal.

Surely the fact that numerous countries have tried to regulate fully- legalised prostitution and have failed horrendously is representative of the industry itself though?

Not necessarily, illegal imports of cigarettes are huge here (and most other countries aswell I'd imagine), doesn't mean the tobacco industry is one that should be abolished (at least not for that reason).

jerry2623 · 07-12-2011 04:16PM

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

carfiosaoorl · 07-12-2011 04:20PM

Prostitution here is legal in that its legal for a woman to prostitute herself but a lot of components of it are illegal. Its illegal to solicit on the street. Its illegal to run a brothel or to pimp. My point is that all of the parts of it that are illegal should remain so. Its not possible to completely legalise it and protect women.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 04:32PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Prostitution here is legal in that its legal for a woman to prostitute herself but a lot of components of it are illegal. Its illegal to solicit on the street. Its illegal to run a brothel or to pimp. My point is that all of the parts of it that are illegal should remain so.

I completely agree. Ireland has a surprisingly progressive approach to prostitution. However I think the naming and shaming of those individuals is ridiculous. The judge is essentially saying they can't be prosecuted by the courts of the law so he has them prosecuted by the media. Absolutely ridiculous and not how our courts should be operating.

Its not possible to completely legalise it and protect women.

It is completely legal though.

smash · 07-12-2011 04:32PM

kraggy wrote: »

21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

Turn up with a camera and tell them you'll pay them to let you take naked photos. If they're a hooker, wait 'til their naked and then tell them you want to bone them instead. A member of the Gardia won't get as far as taking her kit off, and you can't get arrested for being a photographer!

Ormus · 07-12-2011 04:36PM

jerry2623 wrote: »

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

They are sad and desperate men. To say that they're as bad as pimps or human traffickers is incredibly naive.

SIMPLYTHE · 07-12-2011 04:38PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Prostitution here isn't tolerated, it's not decriminalized, it's completely 100% legal. You can't get more legal than legal.
Not necessarily, illegal imports of cigarettes are huge here (and most other countries aswell I'd imagine), doesn't mean the tobacco industry is one that should be abolished (at least not for that reason).

Missing the point....my point is you seem to presume that legalising prostitution makes it safe for prostitutes and is overall a good thing, but you seem not to accept that fully opening up the prostution market here will lead to an increase in negative things.. and I say WILL because that's what's happened everywhere else...I don't know why you'd presume Ireland would be any different.

People is not cigarettes monsieur.

mconigol · 07-12-2011 04:40PM

Has Limerick not got worse problems?

RGDATA! · 07-12-2011 04:42PM

bound to have been someone driving round limerick who recognised one of these women and thought - 'jaysus, i thought she used to be in the guards! times must be hard!"

jerry2623 · 07-12-2011 04:42PM

Sad and Desperate they maybe . Not sure you would have the same reaction if it was your kid sister they were Banging away at.
OR maybe who is married to your sister or kid and having unprotected sex with one of the Gentlemen named above

scholar007 · 07-12-2011 04:43PM

jerry2623 wrote: »

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

Lets line them all up and shoot them so!

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

carfiosaoorl · 07-12-2011 04:47PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I completely agree. Ireland has a surprisingly progressive approach to prostitution. However I think the naming and shaming of those individuals is ridiculous. The judge is essentially saying they can't be prosecuted by the courts of the law so he has them prosecuted by the media. Absolutely ridiculous and not how our courts should be operating.

It is completely legal though.

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law

If that was the case their case would never have made it to court, they would not have pleaded guity been found guilty and been ordered to pay a fine. Are you saying they were fined for not breaking the law.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 04:48PM

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Missing the point....my point is you seem to presume that legalising prostitution makes it safe for prostitutes and is overall a good thing, but you seem not to accept that fully opening up the prostution market here will lead to an increase in negative things.. and I say WILL because that's what's happened everywhere else...I don't know why you'd presume Ireland would be any different.

I don't accept that fully opening up the prostitution market here will lead to an increase in negative things because the prostitution market has been fully open since the 1970s, in fact I'm not even sure if prostitution here was ever anything but "fully open".

Why do you think that it will suddenly turn to **** when it hasn't thus far?

People is not cigarettes monsieur.

Obviously an analogy...

carfiosaoorl wrote:

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law

I'm saying the fact they were named and shamed seems to me like the judge, or police, has a problem with prostitution's legal status and because he couldn't prosecute these men for looking for prostitutes he released their names to the public as a sort of act of "justice" to deter others from soliciting prostitutes.

Remember they weren't arrested for soliciting prostitutes, they were done for doing it in public. If it were done online they wouldn't have committed a crime.

howamidifferent · 07-12-2011 04:52PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law If that was the case their case would never have made it to court, they would not have pleaded guity been found guilty and been ordered to pay a fine. Are you saying they were fined for not breaking the law.

They were fined for solicitation in public, not trying to have sex with a prostitute.
Solicitation in public is the crime, not the payment of money for sex.

carfiosaoorl · 07-12-2011 04:58PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I don't accept that fully opening up the prostitution market here will lead to an increase in negative things because the prostitution market has been fully open since the 1970s, in fact I'm not even sure if prostitution here was ever anything but "fully open".

Why do you think that it will suddenly turn to **** when it hasn't thus far?

Obviously an analogy...

I'm saying the fact they were named and shamed seems to me like the judge, or police, has a problem with prostitution's legal status and because he couldn't prosecute these men for looking for prostitutes he released their names to the public as a sort of act of "justice" to deter others from soliciting prostitutes.

Remember they weren't arrested for soliciting prostitutes, they were done for doing it in public. If it were done online they wouldn't have committed a crime.

I see in the court pages of my local paper every week the names of numerous people who have broken the law and were prosecuted in court. Why do these men deserve to have their crime kept hidden?

Ormus · 07-12-2011 05:00PM

The naming and shaming is used to punish them beyond the means of the law.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 05:01PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

I see in the court pages of my local paper every week the names of numerous people who have broken the law and were prosecuted in court. Why do these men deserve to have their crime kept hidden?

I wasn't aware this is a regular thing, I thought given the publicity it's getting it was an extraordinary event. Maybe it's just a slow news week.

Anyway, if that's the case then I'm fine with it.

scholar007 · 07-12-2011 05:03PM

23
24
25
27
28
31
33
36
38
40
42
45
49
49
51
52
52
59
63
63
67

Interesting over half of them are of an age where you would expect them to be married and sexually active - Could it be that the wives had gone off sex for one reason or another and these men in order to fulfil their needs had to look elsewhere without the wherewithal to carry on what would be considered a normal relationship with another woman due to having herself at home?

Ormus · 07-12-2011 05:09PM

jerry2623 wrote: »

Sad and Desperate they maybe . Not sure you would have the same reaction if it was your kid sister they were Banging away at.
OR maybe who is married to your sister or kid and having unprotected sex with one of the Gentlemen named above

Your argument is ridiculous.

I'd get more angry if someone hit my sister than if someone raped a child in The Phillipines.

Does this mean I think punching is worse than rape?

SeanW · 07-12-2011 05:10PM

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

This is simply not true. Please research the prostitution problem in Amsterdam. Their legalisation of same has increased human trafficking enormously, among with gang and drug activity. I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.

How about Germany? AFAIK prostitution is legal throughout the country, the business is regulated, they even have call girls' unions and everything!

28064212 wrote: »

As was alcohol in America during the 20s. Why? Because it was made illegal, and control of alcohol was passed to criminals

Hammer, Nail, Head. It's happening in all sorts of areas where authoritarians have made stupid "morality" laws like drugs, prostitution, and in 1920s America, alchohol.

The cure (criminalisation) is often worse than the supposed ailment (whatever was considered "bad" to begin with). It's just unfortunate that we are ruled by authoritarians who do not see this. We will all continue to suffer the unnecessary consequences until whenever, if ever, this changes.

carfiosaoorl · 07-12-2011 05:17PM

SeanW wrote: »

How about Germany? AFAIK prostitution is legal throughout the country, the business is regulated, they even have call girls' unions and everything!

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

Procasinator · 07-12-2011 05:22PM

scholar007 wrote: »

Lets line them all up and shoot them so!

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

Know you are joking, but there is no part really graphing such a small set (only 21 individuals). If you want to work off Ages though (5 year bands starting from youngest age):

23-28 : 5
29-33 : 2
34-39 : 2
40-45 : 3
46-51 : 3
52-57 : 2
58-63 : 3
64-69 : 1

Or by decades:
20s = 5, 30s = 4, 40s = 5, 50s = 4 and 60s = 3

The average age is 42.71.

Ormus · 07-12-2011 05:23PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

Pesky unions, I hear SIPTU are knee deep in trafficking these days.

Seachmall · 07-12-2011 05:26PM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

It seems to be on-par with the rest of Europe.

Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

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