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Dog attacked my child - heartbroken

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭TooManyDogs


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Has one of these so called "contracts" ever been tested in a court house???
    I cant find any evidence of it being legally binding.

    They're not legally binding at all. They're simply in place to try and make bringing the dog back to the organisation the automatic thought if the dog doesn't work out. People are far more likely to bring the dog back to the rescue if they think they legally have to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 sezzie22


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    sezzie22 wrote: »
    YOU MUST CONTACT THE ORGANISATION YOU ADOPTED THE DOG FROM AS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PTS THE DOG-THE RESCUE HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN THE DECISION-ITS A LEGAL OBLIGATION ON EVERY ADOPTION CONTRACT!!!!



    Has one of these so called "contracts" ever been tested in a court house???
    I cant find any evidence of it being legally binding.


    Hellrazer- you are entirely taking this thread out of topic- you should know if you are any way inclined towards rescue that these contracts are in place- why do you feel the need to pick on my comment based on our PM history??? I dont appreciate your attack on me via PM in relation to another thread which you have since admitted you were incorrect in doing- however this admission was not to me but another party.....OP has posted they have contacted the rescue in question and I am happy with that- I was simply pointing out something to them- however now you have chosen to pick on my topic of point. I dont see you be-littling any other persons points or replies to OP....so please leave my suggestion to OP alone and stop swaying this thread to an entirely different subject matter in relation to legalities and the likes- I was simply poting information the OP may not have thought of based on the upset this whole situation may have caused them


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    sezzie22 wrote: »
    Hellrazer- you are entirely taking this thread out of topic- you should know if you are any way inclined towards rescue that these contracts are in place- why do you feel the need to pick on my comment based on our PM history???

    Ok firstly I wasnt attacking your post.I was asking a genuine question.And secondly youre the one who cam on this thread giving (shouting) legal advice which I think at best is dubious.
    Toomanydogs has already clarified my question so I dont know why you are bringing this up after Toomanydogs already answered it.
    I dont appreciate your attack on me via PM in relation to another thread which you have since admitted you were incorrect in doing- however this admission was not to me but another party

    So this other party is sharing pms that are supposedly "private" which by the way Im annoyed over now.
    I apologised for my error in that one.I actually have the pm here and I thought I had copied you on that apology and if I didnt Im now apologising for that.
    .....OP has posted they have contacted the rescue in question and I am happy with that-

    As am I.
    I was simply pointing out something to them-
    No you didnt "point" it out to them--you did the internet equivalent of shouting what I believe is dubious legal advice at them.

    however now you have chosen to pick on my topic of point.
    No I didnt--Ive already explained that I was asking a genuine question--something that I belive should be asked because if rescues are asking people to sign a so called "legally binding" contract then I believe that that is wrong on their part.

    I dont see you be-littling any other persons points or replies to OP....
    Wrong again-see above.

    so please leave my suggestion to OP alone and stop swaying this thread to an entirely different subject matter in relation to legalities and the likes- I was simply poting information the OP may not have thought of based on the upset this whole situation may have caused them

    No--youre the one swaying the thread towards a different matter entirely by starting this on thread--for a second time by the way.The last time you also chose to take your frustrations out on thread and then I removed the post and you took it to pms.I suggest that you do the same here.Now in 12 posts youve decided to start arguments with the mods on thread twice--I suggest if you have problem with my posts again you take it to pms as users have been infracted for similar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Just want to say this.

    The dog may be able to go into childless home but if it is someone elderly that person may be much more vunerable when/if nipped/bitten as their skin is much thinner and joints are stiffer.

    An older person may also have grandchildren visit or to mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Shazanne


    Just want to say this.

    The dog may be able to go into childless home but if it is someone elderly that person may be much more vunerable when/if nipped/bitten as their skin is much thinner and joints are stiffer.

    An older person may also have grandchildren visit or to mind.

    Do you not think that statement may be just a bit extreme? You are now painting this dog as being completely visous and I have seen nothing in the OP's description at any stage to suggest this. As someone pointed out above, if the dog had wanted to it could have bitten the child but it didn't. Yes, it did attack, be it defensively or otherwise, but I don't think it fair of you to suggest that it would attack every person it comes in contact with. Maybe its unwise to have the dog with small children, but dont blacken it completely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭Mo60


    Shazanne wrote: »
    Do you not think that statement may be just a bit extreme? You are now painting this dog as being completely visous and I have seen nothing in the OP's description at any stage to suggest this. As someone pointed out above, if the dog had wanted to it could have bitten the child but it didn't. Yes, it did attack, be it defensively or otherwise, but I don't think it fair of you to suggest that it would attack every person it comes in contact with. Maybe its unwise to have the dog with small children, but dont blacken it completely.

    I have a dog, a Yorkshire Terrier, that snaps and growls on occasion. He is a dog that I rescued from the dog pound so I do not know his previous history. Most times he is loving and affectionate, but sometimes he does snap if he feels threatened in some way. I am working on this, but it does not mean that he is a danger to all and sundry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I think the dog would probably be better in a childless home. I'm always a bit wary of dogs in general in homes with children, particularly small children who have a tendency to prod and poke and pull without realising that it's annoying for the dog, and they should never be left alone together (I realise the OP didn't leave her child with the dog). If he found a home with maybe an elderly couple or any childless couple, I'm sure he'd be much-loved.

    In my experience (and I'm no animal expert), I've been snapped at and nipped and chased by more terriers than I have bigger dogs. A friend of mine has a boxer and a couple of small children and I've honestly never seen a dog that is as good with children as this boxer.

    If the OP decides to get another dog, I'd suggest maybe a bigger one. I've always found labradors to be delightful, collies too. I also find a good old-fashioned mutt hard to beat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    I think the dog would probably be better in a childless home. I'm always a bit wary of dogs in general in homes with children, particularly small children who have a tendency to prod and poke and pull without realising that it's annoying for the dog, and they should never be left alone together (I realise the OP didn't leave her child with the dog). If he found a home with maybe an elderly couple or any childless couple, I'm sure he'd be much-loved.

    In my experience (and I'm no animal expert), I've been snapped at and nipped and chased by more terriers than I have bigger dogs. A friend of mine has a boxer and a couple of small children and I've honestly never seen a dog that is as good with children as this boxer.

    If the OP decides to get another dog, I'd suggest maybe a bigger one. I've always found labradors to be delightful, collies too. I also find a good old-fashioned mutt hard to beat.

    I'm not going to drag up an old closed thread but the most recent thread about a pet attacking a family member was a 2 year old retriever (very similar and often confused with Labs and both are considered to be an ideal family dog) that attacked the OPs brother and consequently had to be put down admittedly because of lack of training.

    Also collies are a very active breed, and if not adequately exercised can get snappy and have been known to "herd" children if not stimulated.

    Any breed of dog is capable of an attack if it's in a situation that it feels threatened or if it's not properly socialised within a family unit - and socialisation can't happen if the dog lives exclusively in the back garden feeling ostracised from it's family.
    So last night, he was sitting at my feet when my kid went over, put her head down to him (which she does all the time - they are very affectionate with him) and he went for her, biting several times by the time I was able to pull him off her. Luckily she turned her face away from him so he only got the back of her head and didn't break skin, but still - she was lucky. It was definitely not a warning - it was vicious - very distressing.

    OP your dog was sitting at your feet, relaxing - not wanting to move. Your child bent down over him, disturbing his peace and quiet and quite possibly gave him a fright - not suprising he reacted like he did. It was just a warning, every dog is capable of an attack - which is where they will break the skin, draw blood and do extensive damage.

    Just a thought and maybe not related, but Friday night (when you say the attack happened) was the Late Late Toy Show and 99.9% of kids would have been in a highly agitated state of anticipation waiting for it to start! If your kids were wound up waiting for the childrens event of the year to happen, you're dog could well have picked up on the atmosphere, which was very much out of the normal routine. In his head he's saying -"It's night time, time to snooze and rest but the kids are acting like it's playtime and it's unsettling me" Routine is so important for dogs, particularly rescues who thrive on regularity as anything out of the norm of their new family routine can be very unsettling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Penname


    Just a thought and maybe not related, but Friday night (when you say the attack happened) was the Late Late Toy Show and 99.9% of kids would have been in a highly agitated state of anticipation waiting for it to start! If your kids were wound up waiting for the childrens event of the year to happen, you're dog could well have picked up on the atmosphere, which was very much out of the normal routine. In his head he's saying -"It's night time, time to snooze and rest but the kids are acting like it's playtime and it's unsettling me" Routine is so important for dogs, particularly rescues who thrive on regularity as anything out of the norm of their new family routine can be very unsettling.[/Quote]

    I see ur point but it was around seven o'clock, just before kids go to bed. This is wind down time for them so no anticipation at all. We sky plussed cos they wouldn't stay awake past eight!

    Well, an update. We have a behaviourist coming out to assess whether it's something we're doing wrong or if he genuinely isn't suitable to have in a child household. If its the former, then she'll show us and the kids what to do. To be brutally honest, I'd be happier if he was rehomed as the reason we got a dog was mainly for the kids but he deserves a chance. Apart from Friday night, he IS a fab dog and the kids adore him.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭fret_wimp2


    boomerang wrote: »


    There are people out there who think that dogs should be absolutely perfect angels willing to put up with any kind of treatment without complaint. If they snap, growl or show their teeth (all warning signs in canine communication, and none of which inflict injury - that's the whole point, because the dog does not want to get into a confrontation) then it's a dealbreaker and the dog is deemed vicious or unsafe, and put down. But what human could live up to such a standard? And these are just dogs, after all.


    Like. Like. Double like


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Terriers are the Napoleans of the dog world. How many times have you seen one run up in an aggressive manner to a much larger dog. They are fearless little buggers. But and it's only my personal opinion i would not leave a child alone with any dog, I know this is not the case with the OP, but I've read enough on here where posters post that he dog was in the child's room unsupervised and the child comes running in crying. Supervision is absolutely key when dogs and children interact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Penname wrote: »
    Well, an update. We have a behaviourist coming out to assess whether it's something we're doing wrong or if he genuinely isn't suitable to have in a child household. If its the former, then she'll show us and the kids what to do. To be brutally honest, I'd be happier if he was rehomed as the reason we got a dog was mainly for the kids but he deserves a chance. Apart from Friday night, he IS a fab dog and the kids adore him.
    Don't give up on the dog. The fact that he didn't break the skin means that it was a warning to back off rather than an attack.

    I grew up with a terrier, she was raised with us so she was well used to kids but she still snapped and raised lumps on us, and each and every time it was our own fault because we wouldn't let her go, or she didn't want to be picked up, or we were annoying her, or she was eating. She only once broke skin and that was when my brother tried to pick up her newborn pups. Even though she nipped me numerous times I loved that dog so much. You learn a lot, as a kid, by having someone around who will let you know when you're pushing it too far.

    My point is that even though I said before that I wouldn't put a terrier with kids it's not because I think terriers are nasty, they're just a lot less likely to put up with nonesense than other dogs. And parents today are a lot less likely to tell their children that getting bitten is what happens when you annoy dogs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I would bring the dog straight back to the pound. You only got it in May, they said it would be suitable with kids of which it isn't. It is not fit for the purpose and should be still under guarantee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭fret_wimp2


    I would bring the dog straight back to the pound. You only got it in May, they said it would be suitable with kids of which it isn't. It is not fit for the purpose and should be still under guarantee.

    what a horrible attitude. its a dog, a living creature with feelings and emotion. not a car or a pc that you hope is under warranty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    fret_wimp2 wrote: »
    what a horrible attitude. its a dog, a living creature with feelings and emotion. not a car or a pc that you hope is under warranty.

    Its an unpredictable mut that could have scarred this child for life.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Its an unpredictable mut that could have scarred this child for life.

    uh oh...

    angry-mob.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    I would bring the dog straight back to the pound. You only got it in May, they said it would be suitable with kids of which it isn't. It is not fit for the purpose and should be still under guarantee.

    Read the OPs post again. She got the dog from a shelter that said he was suitable for a home with children.
    Shelters are not the pound. The pound does not assess dogs, it does not say they are suitable for certain homes, some pounds don't neuter, vacc, worm, assess, - a good shelter that stands over it's assessment that the dog is suitable for a home with children will do this.

    You're comparison to something bought in a shop is disgusting by the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭lrushe


    fret_wimp2 wrote: »
    what a horrible attitude. its a dog, a living creature with feelings and emotion. not a car or a pc that you hope is under warranty.

    Its an unpredictable mut that could have scarred this child for life.

    Dogs or indeed animals in general are not unpredictable but humans as a species have evolved to rely so much on verbal communication that we have all but lost the ability to read the very suble signals that animals give out in abundance. Signals like averted gaze, ear twitches, stiffening of the body, lip licking, uneasy silence etc. It's not until dogs are forced to use more obvious signals like the teeth baring, barking or biting that people take notice and think the behaviour is 'out of the blue' when in reality if the months, weeks or days leading to an attack were videoed a trained eye could easily predict the outcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Has one of these so called "contracts" ever been tested in a court house???
    I cant find any evidence of it being legally binding.

    I don't know myself why or why not they might be legally binding as I wouldn't be very informed regarding contract law but - yes most of the contracts would stand up in court according to my solicitor.

    A rescue I work with had their contract tested 4 years ago in court and it also stood up, the dog had to be returned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Whispered wrote: »
    I don't know myself why or why not they might be legally binding as I wouldn't be very informed regarding contract law but - yes most of the contracts would stand up in court according to my solicitor.

    I would have imagined so as well, as long as it was properly drawn up, a contract is contract (a legally binding document) regardless of it's purpose, unless it contains specific clauses which are illegal. A lot of breeders also have proper contracts and plenty have taken dogs back when a 'no breeding from this dog' clause has been broken for example.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Shazanne


    What has happened to the OP? It seems like the original topic is getting lost here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Shazanne wrote: »
    What has happened to the OP? It seems like the original topic is getting lost here.

    Everyone's passing the time, arguing the fine points while the OP awaits input from the trainer and decides what is best. I'm sure they don't feel like constantly repeating themselves in the meantime while this process is ongoing ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Shazanne


    Ok - point taken. I'm just wondering what's happening with the dog in the meantime. Thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Shazanne wrote: »
    Ok - point taken. I'm just wondering what's happening with the dog in the meantime. Thanks.

    Oh, there was no point! And I just made that up, but they might not have any update yet, and doing the sensible thing not getting involved in the debates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Shazanne wrote: »
    Do you not think that statement may be just a bit extreme? You are now painting this dog as being completely visous and I have seen nothing in the OP's description at any stage to suggest this. As someone pointed out above, if the dog had wanted to it could have bitten the child but it didn't. Yes, it did attack, be it defensively or otherwise, but I don't think it fair of you to suggest that it would attack every person it comes in contact with. Maybe its unwise to have the dog with small children, but dont blacken it completely.


    I'm not blackening anything, it can take longer for an elderly person to heal from an injury. The injury doesn't have to be massive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Whispered wrote: »
    I don't know myself why or why not they might be legally binding as I wouldn't be very informed regarding contract law but - yes most of the contracts would stand up in court according to my solicitor.

    A rescue I work with had their contract tested 4 years ago in court and it also stood up, the dog had to be returned.

    It would depend a great deal on the Judge. Civil law is very much more open to interpretation than criminal law. I made some enquiries a while ago. The Guards & Dog Warden were adamant that the owner was whoever held a license for the dog.

    The terms of any Civil contract could be deemed to be unfair or unreasonable by a Judge. Also there is the grey area as to who owns the rescue dog in the first place. If it is a stray then the one year & a day rule comes into play. I did hear of a divorce dog custody case where the Judge ruled that the party that owned the dog was the one who had paid for it !

    A breeder contract would be different as the dog is being sold & the terms become part of the contract of sale.

    I think that, whatever the outcome, the OP deserves praise for ignoring some of the comment & properly considering the options. The only area of concern for me would be this:
    Penname wrote: »
    He has snapped at our younger child in the past but that was because she took his food bowl away while he was eating, so we nipped that in the bud by using the technique where you give him his food and take it away a couple of times.

    Personally I would test any dog before adopting it if children are involved. When I found my latest addition I did a few simple tests to see what I had found. So I put a nice piece of meat in my caged hand. The poor lad was very hungry & tried to push my hand open but he never showed any aggression. My Vet did the same test when she met him as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Penname


    Just an update:

    We had the trainer out and we feel much more positive about the situation. She reckons he's more possessive and not naturally aggressive which is a good sign. Obviously she couldn 't guarantee he won't bite again, which of course, I know so we will continue to supervise when he's with the kids but she gave us some brilliant exercises to help condition him to tolerate possible future child handling scenarios eg. child grabbing his collar, cuddling him etc.

    He has made huge progress already since she's been here but he has a three week probation period whereby he must change his attitude to his "possessions" and the way he sees the children (not as threats to his possessions but as the bringers of treats!). I am positive as we're already seeing changes in him for the better.

    Thanks again for all of your advice. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭westies4ever


    ^^^^^^^^

    well done Op - nice to see owner responsibility and not going with the 'kneejerk' reaction - you're a credit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    So glad to hear that it's looking good for you.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    I'm liking what you've told us of your trainer's approach to things, sounds like you got good advice.
    I'll echo what others have said, well done to you for giving your dog another chance as on this occasion, it's worth doing when you've armed yourself with the right information!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Felicitations, OP.

    Reaction here is that the dog did not break skin and had it been a real attack?

    Our collie did once break skin on someone's ankle, many years ago and before we had her. That got her labelled of course and many then were scared of her.

    She was simply doing what an untrained collie will do; rounding the person up and lost control when the lady screamed. She had no real upbringing and to us the miracle is that she has no aggression in her.

    When I posted that here, the same kind of reaction; pts that dog etc etc etc. from many.

    Collie has never ever tried to bite us. Period. She will bark and even snarl at strangers who have not been introduced; that is her job. Once introduced, she is fine. She lives indoors happily.

    So good work there...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭fret_wimp2


    As said already, but needs to be said many more times, good job PENNAME (OP)!!!

    Its great to see someone take responsibility for a situation, and realize that just chucking out an animal like a broken piece of technology is not the answer.

    The way you've handled the situation is an example to all pet owners. Kudos to you!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭MidnightQueen


    Ah i'm glad Penname. By your first post, you seemed really upset about getting rid of him. Where theres a will theres a way, always think positive. ;)


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