Atheism causes creationism

old hippy · 01-12-2011 01:56PM

Newsite wrote: »

Maybe you can't read what I wrote above about you making your choice? I mean, I put it as plainly as I possibly could, but if you want me to rephrase it to make it even more clear then just let me know.

No thanks. It's blatantly clear what you're saying.

marienbad · 01-12-2011 02:03PM

Newsite wrote: »

Where did I say that I, specifically, was told to do that? I fully expected you to come back with that - but that wasn't the point. My point is that talking about 'peacefully held views' in the same breath as 'sucking on a rail spike' clearly does not add up.

There are so many untrue points and flaws in what sonics2k was saying - but this is what happens when you are up on a soap-box and using emotive language - you end up dealing in cliches and misconception. It's easy to get carried away and not look at what you're really claiming to check if it actually adds up.

I have no idea where you are getting that I am playing 'the innocent card'. I don't get how that has anything to do with this discussion. I am not even a tiny bit offended.

God does not 'condemn' anyone without the person playing their part. He does not 'condemn' homosexuals for being gay, he condemns homosexual acts. He doesn't choose Hell for people, they choose it by not wanting anything to do with Him. I always think it's interesting that people who say they hate God and want nothing to do with Him are the ones who are the most indignant about how He chooses to let them have their way in the end. Doesn't add up when you think about it.

I would guess Newsite that the reason people get indignant about God's plans for them even though they don't believe in him is just a recognition that those the do believe in him tend to judge others on those plans.

Why else get all so hot and bothered about homosexuality for example ?It is a very private affair and yet with all the bile thrown at it one would think it will bring about the fall of civilisation. Arms dealer and dodgy financiers get a free ride by comparision.

And that is before we even get to thoughts converted into actions-witch burning, torture, genital mutilation.

Oh it adds up allright Newsite when you do THINK about it.

P.S how about a reply to my last post to you ?

kylith · 01-12-2011 02:08PM

Newsite wrote: »

God does not 'condemn' anyone without the person playing their part. He does not 'condemn' homosexuals for being gay, he condemns homosexual acts. He doesn't choose Hell for people, they choose it by not wanting anything to do with Him. I always think it's interesting that people who say they hate God and want nothing to do with Him are the ones who are the most indignant about how He chooses to let them have their way in the end. Doesn't add up when you think about it.

These are the reasons that I would hate God, if he existed. Your God creates us all flawed and then condemns us to eternal torment because we're flawed. Why create gay people if being gay is a sin? We choose Hell by being flawed, but he created those flaws; and that is completely incompatable with the fair and loving God that theists are so keen to put forward.

It's like two parents beating up their child for being ginger; it's their fault that the child is ginger, so why are they beating him for not being blond?

The Mad Hatter · 01-12-2011 02:13PM

old hippy wrote: »

Nobody chooses for me & nobody ever will, especially not some insane concept that claims "love" with one hand and "hate" with the other.

So you're saying God's left hand doesn't know what his right hand is doing?

dmw07 · 01-12-2011 02:28PM

Newsite wrote: »

Where did I say that I, specifically, was told to do that?

If you are telling me that beingtold to 'go suck on a railroad spike'

Lets put it down to me being pedantic and move on, eh.

Newsite wrote: »

God does not 'condemn' anyone without the person playing their part. He does not 'condemn' homosexuals for being gay, he condemns homosexual acts.

Wow. Just wow. I don't even know where to start tackling this one.

The possible insinuation that being gay is a choice thing and god does not like this choice. Yes, i give humans power to choose, as long as it's what i choose. Sounds like the EU looking for an Irish man to vote on the Lisbon treaty. That's not a real choice.

If being gay is not a choice thing, god made gay people and loves them, as long as they don't act or do anything gay. Kinda cruel, no?

The god condemns people thing. How, exactly? I'm going to go out and act all gay, see what happens to me. I hope i don't get knocked down by a car.

Man is partly at fault for god condemning them. Again, How do you know this and what happens to the person he condemns?

Your argument and statements are just too open, too vague and ambiguous and just far too wrong as i see it.

Knasher · 01-12-2011 02:29PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

So you're saying God's left hand doesn't know what his right hand is doing?

Well if you're a member of one of the sects of christianity that believe in the trinity then he has 6 hands to keep track of. So you can't really blame him for loosing track.

Sonics2k · 01-12-2011 02:30PM

Newsite wrote: »

If you can quote a post where I said that, I'd love to see it. I'll wait here while you go find it.

Apologies Newsite, that actual comment was not aimed directly at you.

Just those who spread messages of hatred and calling people abominations, but then say it's only because God loves you that he punishes you.

I'm pretty sure I saw a bloke say something similar on Jerry Springer once.

robindch · 01-12-2011 02:41PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

So you're saying God's left hand doesn't know what his right hand is doing?

If Jesus is sitting on the right hand of god, what's god's left hand up to?

old hippy · 01-12-2011 02:43PM

Knasher · 01-12-2011 03:28PM

Newsite wrote: »

He doesn't choose Hell for people, they choose it by not wanting anything to do with Him.

So you believe that your omniscient and all powerful deity created me in such a way that I wouldn't be guidable enough accept things on faith (belief without evidence) alone, and yet I bear ultimate responsibility for not going against the plan (as outlined by men dressed in weird clothes, the only measurable effect of whom is to amass immense amounts of material wealth) of this all powerful and omniscient being and am therefore worthy of being punished forever. Is it really my fault if I think a being that is meant to be all powerful (so has the capability) all knowing (so has the knowledge to be able to fix disbelief without breaking any free will rules (not that that was ever a problem for him before)) and all loving (so has the motivation (though calling a being who encourages genocide (yet gets pissed at Moses for hitting a rock) all-loving seems kinda perverse)) yet for some reason does absolutely nothing to convert people who otherwise live moral lives, and hence condemn them to punishment forever, extremely implausible?

Newsite wrote: »

I always think it's interesting that people who say they hate God and want nothing to do with Him are the ones who are the most indignant about how He chooses to let them have their way in the end. Doesn't add up when you think about it.

Your right, that point doesn't add up when you think about it. What we object to is people trying to force their morals, through legislation, onto others using a book that, depending on how you measure it, could be called the most immoral book ever written.

Dades · 01-12-2011 03:47PM

robindch wrote: »

If Jesus is sitting on the right hand of god, what's god's left hand up to?

I can think of only one reason to have someone sit on your hand for any period of time.

Though traditionally you'd sit on your own hand.

Sarky · 01-12-2011 05:16PM

Sitting on your own hand is for peasants. The rich, successful and creators of the universe have people for that sort of thing.

seeing_ie · 02-12-2011 09:35AM

Hope this wasn't posted already.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/30/rick-santorum-creationism_n_1120766.html

Those crazy americans you might think, but many religous-administered schools would love to bring it in here imo.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 05:12PM

kylith wrote: »

These are the reasons that I would hate God, if he existed. Your God creates us all flawed and then condemns us to eternal torment because we're flawed. Why create gay people if being gay is a sin? We choose Hell by being flawed, but he created those flaws; and that is completely incompatable with the fair and loving God that theists are so keen to put forward.

It's like two parents beating up their child for being ginger; it's their fault that the child is ginger, so why are they beating him for not being blond?

That is a flawed analogy because it's not actually like that at all.

The ginger kid is a ginger because of his DNA - it's not something he can control in any way shape or form. It's not something that he can influence. I would love to be over 6 foot tall but it's not going to ever happen, because of my DNA.

You don't choose Hell by being flawed, you choose it because you don't want to hear His words. You don't want anything to do with Him. This is the state of the natural man, until something come along to compel you out of it (God's grace). This could be a million different things, but God's hand is in it when it happens.

Actually...ok I've just spotted a post on another thread relating to Boards.ie, and around the 'terms of use', so to speak. It could probably apply to our relationship with God as well! Where 'your freedom of speech' is your indignation that the One who made the universe and everything in it, and gave you this planet to enjoy should dare to lay down a few ground rules in the process!!

This is a private website. You've been kindly given access to it, all you have to do is follow a simple set of rules which are there to stop muppets ruining it for everyone else. I never understood why this is such a problem for some. It's not rocket science. Some people feel the need to act like they own the place and when they get caught, they cry out that their freedom of speech is being infringed upon.

old hippy · 02-12-2011 05:20PM

Newsite wrote: »

You don't choose Hell by being flawed, you choose it because you don't want to hear His words. You don't want anything to do with Him. This is the state of the natural man, until something come along to compel you out of it (God's grace). This could be a million different things, but God's hand is in it when it happens.

I am not god's glove puppet. There's no words to be heard, just deluded ramblings of people with unfortunate mental health issues.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 05:26PM

old hippy wrote: »

I am not god's glove puppet. There's no words to be heard, just deluded ramblings of people with unfortunate mental health issues.

You are certainly a lot of things - but this does indeed sum you up

old hippy · 02-12-2011 05:31PM

Newsite wrote: »

You are certainly a lot of things - but this does indeed sum you up

Yes, I don't hear voices or need a book to tell me how to live my life.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 05:36PM

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, I don't hear voices or need a book to tell me how to live my life.

You do, but you just don't realise it! Yet!

old hippy · 02-12-2011 05:42PM

Newsite wrote: »

You do, but you just don't realise it! Yet!

Who's voice do I need to hear? Siddhartha? Vishnu? Allah? God? Lucifer? Santa?

How will I realise I need to hear some invented deity's voice? Will I be sitting in the bathtub? Cooking up a storm in the kitchen? In the middle of a romp? When? Where? Why?

Why do I need someone to tell me how to live?

MagicMarker · 02-12-2011 05:54PM

Newsite wrote: »

You do, but you just don't realise it! Yet!

So when?

Sonics2k · 02-12-2011 05:55PM

Newsite wrote: »

You do, but you just don't realise it! Yet!

Explain how?

I do volunteer down at the soup kitchen in Cork to help the homeless. I also just started Volunteer work the Civil Defence forces, I'll be working in the mountain rescue team.

I've given 3 speeches for Un-Married Fathers rights, each one to a standing ovation from the crowd. At two of them were members of Dail, including the Minister for Families, and the Minister of Education.

I worked at a support group for teenagers suffering abuse, both physical and mental. In a few cases, they were gay teens who were being bullied and beaten for the simple reason they were gay, in more than one case people did it because the Bible says it's an Abomination.

I've spoken up for Gay rights here in Ireland, and that no person should be treated as a second-class citizen because Christianity is an archaic, hatefull and bigoted religion.

And I do all this while raising my children, paying my taxes and contributing to society seeking equality for all, regardless of gender, sexuality, religion or race.

I do all this because it's right, and I enjoy it. I don't need to hear magical voices or read a book.

Dades · 02-12-2011 06:03PM

Sonics2k > me

Newsite · 02-12-2011 06:12PM

old hippy wrote: »

Who's voice do I need to hear? Siddhartha? Vishnu? Allah? God? Lucifer? Santa?

How will I realise I need to hear some invented deity's voice? Will I be sitting in the bathtub? Cooking up a storm in the kitchen? In the middle of a romp? When? Where? Why?

Why do I need someone to tell me how to live?

It's got very little to do with this life, and more about the one after. God created you, makes Himself known to you through everything around you, and shows you

But this doesn't concern you, so even though you are warned of the route you take by those who were once on the same one (and wish you'd turn from it), you pay no heed, and go on your merry way.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

But in terms of why do you need someone tell you how to live - ever stop to think that we might not be doing such a good job of it without Him? Because we're clearly doing a pretty rubbish job of it if you ever stop to think about it.

Sarky · 02-12-2011 06:16PM

Newsite wrote: »

But in terms of why do you need someone tell you how to live - ever stop to think that we might not be doing such a good job of it without Him? Because we're clearly doing a pretty rubbish job of it if you ever stop to think about it.

I'm willing to bet that Sonics2k, with all his godless Lost arrogance, is doing a better job of it than your pious self.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 06:18PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Explain how?

I do volunteer down at the soup kitchen in Cork to help the homeless. I also just started Volunteer work the Civil Defence forces, I'll be working in the mountain rescue team.

I've given 3 speeches for Un-Married Fathers rights, each one to a standing ovation from the crowd. At two of them were members of Dail, including the Minister for Families, and the Minister of Education.

I worked at a support group for teenagers suffering abuse, both physical and mental. In a few cases, they were gay teens who were being bullied and beaten for the simple reason they were gay, in more than one case people did it because the Bible says it's an Abomination.

I've spoken up for Gay rights here in Ireland, and that no person should be treated as a second-class citizen because Christianity is an archaic, hatefull and bigoted religion.

And I do all this while raising my children, paying my taxes and contributing to society seeking equality for all, regardless of gender, sexuality, religion or race.

I do all this because it's right, and I enjoy it. I don't need to hear magical voices or read a book.

You know it's better to keep your good works as secret as possible? That even the Bible says the same? And your average man in the street would likely concur? There happened to be a guy talking about Pieta House on a breakfast show the other day. He was up for a 'local hero' award for his work with troubled teens in his area. The man gives out his mobile number to people looking to talk to him when they're down. Martin King mentions it and the man wouldn't even talk about it.

And that a huge part of the reason you do these things is the personal satisfaction it gives you? You said as much yourself?

And that these works are worth nothing in God's eyes? And that you can believe and trust in Him AND do good works? I find it strange that you set the two apart in such terms.

That He demands nothing more than that we believe and trust in Him?

And that the reason the kids were being bullied was because of the badness of the bullies - not because the Bible says it's fine to bully?

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 06:22PM

Sarky wrote: »

I'm willing to bet that Sonics2k, with all his godless Lost arrogance, is doing a better job of it than your pious self.

Who would judge that game?

old hippy · 02-12-2011 06:29PM

Newsite wrote: »

You know it's better to keep your good works as secret as possible? That even the Bible says the same? And your average man in the street would likely concur? There happened to be a guy talking about Pieta House on a breakfast show the other day. He was up for a 'local hero' award for his work with troubled teens in his area. The man gives out his mobile number to people looking to talk to him when they're down. Martin King mentions it and the man wouldn't even talk about it.

And that a huge part of the reason you do these things is the personal satisfaction it gives you? You said as much yourself?

And that these works are worth nothing in God's eyes? And that you can believe and trust in Him AND do good works? I find it strange that you set the two apart in such terms.

That He demands nothing more than that we believe and trust in Him?

And that the reason the kids were being bullied was because of the badness of the bullies - not because the Bible says it's fine to bully?

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

Nope, that would be your overblown religious guff. And I'd rather aspire to that poster than someone who hears voices and reads a non existent deity into everything he sees.

Sarky · 02-12-2011 06:29PM

Anyone capable of counting would probably do. The only thing that has ever changed the world has been shutting up and doing something about it. Preaching at us might make you feel better, but it won't comfort the old/sick/lonely, it won't feed a homeless person or stop a gay person from being bullied by window-licking troglodytes who use the holy word of God as justification.

swampgas · 02-12-2011 06:33PM

Newsite wrote: »

You know it's better to keep your good works as secret as possible? That even the Bible says the same? And your average man in the street would likely concur? There happened to be a guy talking about Pieta House on a breakfast show the other day. He was up for a 'local hero' award for his work with troubled teens in his area. The man gives out his mobile number to people looking to talk to him when they're down. Martin King mentions it and the man wouldn't even talk about it.

And that a huge part of the reason you do these things is the personal satisfaction it gives you? You said as much yourself?

And that these works are worth nothing in God's eyes? And that you can believe and trust in Him AND do good works? I find it strange that you set the two apart in such terms.

That He demands nothing more than that we believe and trust in Him?

And that the reason the kids were being bullied was because of the badness of the bullies - not because the Bible says it's fine to bully?

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

Wow - just wow.

You can't find it in yourself to say something positive about what Sonics2k is doing, instead you snipe away in the most petty way imaginable.

Whatever - I would rather someone like Sonics2k does what they do because they want to and enjoy it, rather than because they are terrified that they will be burned in hell for all eternity if they don't.

Sonics2k · 02-12-2011 06:52PM

Newsite wrote: »

You know it's better to keep your good works as secret as possible? That even the Bible says the same? And your average man in the street would likely concur? There happened to be a guy talking about Pieta House on a breakfast show the other day. He was up for a 'local hero' award for his work with troubled teens in his area. The man gives out his mobile number to people looking to talk to him when they're down. Martin King mentions it and the man wouldn't even talk about it.

I do keep it too myself. I never brag about these things, in fact the only time I really talk about it is when asking friends if they'd mind giving a hand over the holidays and donating what they can.
I pointed these aspects out simply as part of this discussion, and it was all relevant.

And that a huge part of the reason you do these things is the personal satisfaction it gives you? You said as much yourself?

I do get some personal satisfaction from it yes. I am happy that I'm making an effort to improve peoples lives, or at least make sure they have a blanket on them to sleep.
But I do it mainly because I'm aware of my good fortunes, and I don't like living in a world where people are abandoned and forgotten.

And that these works are worth nothing in God's eyes? And that you can believe and trust in Him AND do good works? I find it strange that you set the two apart in such terms.

That He demands nothing more than that we believe and trust in Him?

I don't believe in God. Well, to be more precise, I don't give a flying donkey if a God(s) are real. I live my life how I see fit, and do what I can to help others.
I have no trust in a God that allows billions of people to die of starvation, suffering in pain, children going blind, whilst people like you sit at home on their computer talking about the good grace of the Bible and Jesus.

And that the reason the kids were being bullied was because of the badness of the bullies - not because the Bible says it's fine to bully?

The bible calls homosexuals an abomination. Some Christians believe they should all be wiped out, killed, beaten, raped or jailed.
I know a young woman, from Co Clare who was hospitalized by a group of Catholics (in their 40's) because she was a "dyke".

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

Read it as you will.
Just like every other post, you'll twist it to your own means and refuse to acknowledge just how much spite, venom, bile and hatred Religion brings the world.

Atheism causes creationism

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