rearing to kill.......

crackcrack30 · 21-11-2011 08:27PM #1

Anyone on here rearing calves to kill when fat for the freezer ?

Thinking of buying a nice docile heifer/ young cow and petting her around/near to the house.....

Breeds/cross and weights results ect. appreciated....

Are the days of milk for the home long gone?........

(P.S i'm no hugh wherthing scutterscald)

cheers cc30

marizpan · 22-11-2011 11:06AM

We reared a jersey calf to six months last year. Killed out at 120kg deadweight. Great marbling and butcher was able to hang for 4 wks as there was enough fat. A great amount of meat for a family of four for a year. I think a bullock is just too much meat. Will do again this year. Cost very little to rear as the cow helped reared him n still plenty of milk for the house. Butcher cost €150

Boardnashea · 22-11-2011 11:34AM

Oooh that sounds good! I was thinking of getting back into smaller stock but home beef. Mmmmmm. Can't do it on my own land but I'm sure I could organise something. Is it still veal at 6 months or are we into beef at that stage?

marizpan · 22-11-2011 01:04PM

The calf was a byproduct of our house cow. Was worthless to sell so we decided to rear him instead.
Not much experience of beef breeds, not something we would consider as higher costs etc. At six mths its Rose veal. Almost as dark as beef, very tender and milder beefy taste. He was Autumn calved so spent his last few months indoors. If we have a heifer calve again, we would sell her n raise a dairy bull calf with our own milk. Very cheap good quality meat n reared over a shorter time frame. Didn't have to bother with castrating or behorning

bbam · 22-11-2011 07:34PM

We have two pigs off to slaughter on Thursday... Can't wait, they're going to be fully cured as we don't want any pork...

Plan is for next year to rear an Angus Heifer for the freezer along with two more pigs....

We had a Heraford heifer this year which we thought about killing but then prices were so good we sold her and made a nice few bob instead

Muckit · 22-11-2011 08:12PM

My only concern would be how do you ensure that you're getting all your meat back from the butcher? :rolleyes: A few chops here, a few chops there....

Askim · 22-11-2011 09:39PM

my pigs are slap marked on both hams & i get them back just split in half, only way, don't know how you could ensure beef or lamb was yours, Dna would be the only way

you could get a butcher to home kill, in winter for you & hang yourself high in a shed

marizpan · 22-11-2011 11:54PM

We have a great relationship with our butcher n hundred percent trust what we get back. He takes a lot of pride in his skill. I wouldn't send animals to a slaughter house though for that reason

reilig · 23-11-2011 03:14PM

Askim wrote: »

you could get a butcher to home kill, in winter for you & hang yourself high in a shed

You can't do that I'm afraid.

They can only be salughtered in a licenced slaughterhouse which is Dep of Ag and EPA monitored. All meat in these places have to be stamped (used to be by a A dep of Ag vet, but I see recently that ordinary officals are doing it now too).

Tora Bora · 23-11-2011 04:59PM

reilig wrote: »

You can't do that I'm afraid.

They can only be salughtered in a licenced slaughterhouse which is Dep of Ag and EPA monitored. All meat in these places have to be stamped (used to be by a A dep of Ag vet, but I see recently that ordinary officals are doing it now too).

When the euro goes down the sewer, one of the benefits hopefully will be, that rules and regulations made by the elite to control what the little people do, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute will also go down the sewer.
Farming families have reared, fed, and slaughtered all classes of animals and fowl, for centuries, to the highest standards of safety and security, using traditional methods. May that day come back again sooner rather than later:) (well, to be frank, some of us never really took much notice in any case:cool:):D

clonmahon · 23-11-2011 06:00PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

Farming families have reared, fed, and slaughtered all classes of animals and fowl, for centuries, to the highest standards of safety and security, using traditional methods. May that day come back again sooner rather than later:) (well, to be frank, some of us never really took much notice in any case:cool:):D

+1

Askim · 24-11-2011 12:22AM

reilig wrote: »

You can't do that I'm afraid.

They can only be salughtered in a licenced slaughterhouse which is Dep of Ag and EPA monitored. All meat in these places have to be stamped (used to be by a A dep of Ag vet, but I see recently that ordinary officals are doing it now too).

I think you can kill a pig at home, but meat can only be for your own family, can't vive any away.

I have heard opinions that say yes & ones that say no, where could one get a definitive answer in writing ??

Might ask my local butcher

A

reilig · 24-11-2011 10:35AM

Lads, in reality, you can do anything you like in the privacy of your own home, slaughter animals, grow crops that might not be legal

etc. etc.

You can do it, but it isn't legal.

I posed this question here before. If you are a legit farmer, keeping records and herd profiles like you should be, and you slaughter one of your own animals in your back garden. How do you record this animal in your herd register?

Not to get into a rant, but we have rebuilt what was a shambles of a meat industry in this country caused by Mad Cow Disease and foot and mouth. This was done by setting up an extensive and expensive meat and feed traceability scheme. This involved building up trust in our meat buyers by showing them that the meat they are eating can be traced from farm to fork.

Now I can see everyone's reasons for being allowed to slaughter a lamb or a pig at home for personal use. But all it takes is one clotty person to screw it up, someone to become violently sick or (god forbid) die from ecoli or another disease caused by bad handling of food and we hit world headlines. We lose our worldwide meat markets, and we lose all of the good work done in meat traceability for the last 10 years.

For these reasons I hope that the day of home slaughtering animals will never come back again - I'm pretty confident that they won't.

I'm not saying that anyone here would act in an irresponsible manner. I'm sure that the majority of people who home slaughter do it in a clean and healthy way. But if the rules on home slaughtering were relaxed, there would always be one gobsh1te who would rim it. Rules on slaughtering are for the greater good of all who produce meat in this country.

Final part of the rant. Look at Germany last year where chic peas became contaminated with ecoli and 30+ people died. All it took was 1 unhygienic person.

fodda · 24-11-2011 10:56AM

Tora Bora wrote: »

When the euro goes down the sewer, one of the benefits hopefully will be, that rules and regulations made by the elite to control what the little people do, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute will also go down the sewer.
Farming families have reared, fed, and slaughtered all classes of animals and fowl, for centuries, to the highest standards of safety and security, using traditional methods. May that day come back again sooner rather than later:) (well, to be frank, some of us never really took much notice in any case:cool:):D

I like most others relish the end of the EU but the one thing i would never want to see is a relaxing of animal welfare and food hygiene regulations.

Do that and the first thing tomorrow morning those who couldnt give a monkies will move in to make a quick buck and then there will be disaster........the result being there will be no confidence in how safe the food is which will just drive people back to the major shops in their droves.

Also i think any food which is supplied to the public in any form has to meet regulations regarding its safety and if anybody fell ill after you supplying them food.....:eek:

reilig · 24-11-2011 11:17AM

fodda wrote: »

Also i think any food which is supplied to the public in any form has to meet regulations regarding its safety and if anybody fell ill after you supplying them food.....:eek:

+1
Totally agree.

I'd also add that its not just supplying food to the public. What happens if someone from your own family fell ill after eating home slaughtered meat. At least if the meat is traceable, you have some recourse to the producer/slaughterer

clonmahon · 24-11-2011 12:03PM

reilig wrote: »

What happens if someone from your own family fell ill after eating home slaughtered meat.

That would be a problem with storage, handling or cooking. Don't matter where the meat came from it has to be stored properly, handled with care when raw and cooked properly before eating.

With all due respects you are repeating the same line as the authorities. There is a different scale of risk between a skilled and experienced artisan who has total control over a process from beginning to end and a large industrial scale meat killing and processing plant. In one a skilled person has total control, in the other hundreds of unskilled workers have a hand in a complex production process.

In exactly the same way there is a difference scale of risk between cooking a meal at home for 4 people and catering for 1000 people.

There are lots of examples of industrial scale food production killing people, but I don't know of any example of small scale artisan food producers killing people. Can anyone supply any examples.

Several posters have blamed the EU for what is an Irish problem, I am no fan of the EU but if you visit continental countries like France and Spain they have a thriving artisan food sector that is by Irish standards very loosely regulated. This is because the authorities recognize the different scale of risks, whereas here we don't.

reilig · 24-11-2011 12:37PM

There's a huge difference in scale between between a skilled artizan producer and a factory. I agree. But if everyone has free reign to slaughter animals in their own back garden and "hang the meat in a shed" as pointed out above, then you'll have both skilled and non skilled people "taking a chance" and slaughtering for themselved. All the meat industry needs in this country is one bad story in the press and the multi-million Euro meat industry which is currently booming in this country will fall flat as a pancake.

Nobody has issue with a skilled artizan producer slaughtering meat. But everyone who has a pig or a lamb to slaughter is not an artizan producer - nor can all of them be artizan producers.

I may be repeating the sam line as the authorities, but its the truth!!!

Meat traceability in this country is in a good position which benefits both the producer and the consumer. This traceability scheme should not be allowed to be compromised because a small percentage of people want to be able to slaughter their own food!!

clonmahon wrote: »

That would be a problem with storage, handling or cooking. Don't matter where the meat came from it has to be stored properly, handled with care when raw and cooked properly before eating.

With all due respects you are repeating the same line as the authorities. There is a different scale of risk between a skilled and experienced artisan who has total control over a process from beginning to end and a large industrial scale meat killing and processing plant. In one a skilled person has total control, in the other hundreds of unskilled workers have a hand in a complex production process.

In exactly the same way there is a difference scale of risk between cooking a meal at home for 4 people and catering for 1000 people.

There are lots of examples of industrial scale food production killing people, but I don't know of any example of small scale artisan food producers killing people. Can anyone supply any examples.

Several posters have blamed the EU for what is an Irish problem, I am no fan of the EU but if you visit continental countries like France and Spain they have a thriving artisan food sector that is by Irish standards very loosely regulated. This is because the authorities recognize the different scale of risks, whereas here we don't.

Muckit · 24-11-2011 12:42PM

Well said Clonmahon. It's important people keep things in context and make fair comparisons.

I'm sick to the back teeth of the amount of bureaucracy, red tape and scaremongering in this country. You can't fart without having to fill out a form.... well, almost.:rolleyes: It does nobody any favours.

I think it'd be much nicer to see alot more farmers processing their own produce and selling it locally. Cut out the middle man. You get to meet face to face with the end customer and supply exactly what they are after. It would not alone solve alot of economic issues, but may in some way help to address the major issues of isolation and depression that we have in our rural communities.

The penny would drop alot quicker with both the farmer and the customer that farming is indeed a business and a very important and vital one at that.

All big multinational meat processors and supermarkets have done for us is remove us from reality for the last few decades. Yes it brought us convenience, but at what price?

fodda · 24-11-2011 12:45PM

How many people died or were ill from infected meat and it's products in the days before regulations? Truth is nobody knows. TB was a major killer and meat inspections through regulations have stopped this. Milk is another example.

BSE.....can you imagine if there wasnt strict regulations in force regards this?

If anything regards food there should be no relaxation of any regulations just to suit somebodies fancy of a home kill especially as they work.

One bad event is all that it takes.......look at the most recent in Ireland.....contaminated animal feed and i think all exports of pork were banned in the countries who accepted them.

reilig · 24-11-2011 12:50PM

The issue of large meat processing facilities and supermarkets should not come into this topic. There are loads of local and small slaughter houses which will salughter and process your animals for a very fair price.

Legalising home slaughtering also opens up the meat industry to use and abuse of growth hormones. Meat would be untested and untraceable.

If you are a farmer producing cattle for beef, the removal of the traceability scheme would be the worst thing that could happen to you because 100% of the countries that import Live animals or meat from ireland only do so because of the traceability scheme that exists. Its allright allowing home slaughtering and selling meat locally, but considering that we consume less than 15% of the meat produced in this country - what do we do with the 85% left over??? If we don't have a 100% traceability scheme, nobody will want to buy it from us!!

As a farmer, i feel that supporting the removal of the traceability scheme would be sh1tting on my own doorstep!!

Muckit wrote: »

Well said Clonmahon. It's important people keep things in context and make fair comparisons.

I'm sick to the back teeth of the amount of bureaucracy, red tape and scaremongering in this country. You can't fart without having to fill out a form.... well, almost.:rolleyes: It does nobody any favours.

I think it'd be much nicer to see alot more farmers processing their own produce and selling it locally. Cut out the middle man. You get to meet face to face with the end customer and supply exactly what they are after. It would not alone solve alot of economic issues, but may in some way help to address the major issues of isolation and depression that we have in our rural communities.

The penny would drop alot quicker with both the farmer and the customer that farming is indeed a business and a very important and vital one at that.

All big multinational meat processors and supermarkets have done for us is remove us from reality for the last few decades. Yes it brought us convenience, but at what price?

Muckit · 24-11-2011 01:07PM

reilig wrote: »

The issue of large meat processing facilities and supermarkets should not come into this topic. There are loads of local and small slaughter houses which will salughter and process your animals for a very fare price.

Legalising home slaughtering also opens up the meat industry to use and abuse of growth hormones. Meat would be untested and untraceable.

If you are a farmer producing cattle for beef, the removal of the traceability scheme would be the worst thing that could happen to you.

As a farmer, i feel that supporting the removal of the traceability scheme would be sh1tting on my own doorstep!!

I wasn't the one who brought up about the meat industry!

But seeing as it was brought up, well.... factories are a big part of it!

As for traceability, it's coming off your own farm, how bloody traceable is that!!??

And of course there would still have to be paperwork and regulation. The farmer would be HACCP and HSE registered. I never talked about deregulating anything, just taking back more control.

My original post was about having too much paperwork and needless bureaucracy and relinquishing too much power to the meat processors and the likes. I wasn't saying we need to get rid of it altogether!

reilig · 24-11-2011 01:30PM

Muckit wrote: »

I wasn't the one who brought up about the meat industry! But seeing as it was brought up, well.... factories are a big part of it!

As for traceability, it's coming off your own farm, how bloody traceable is that!!?? And of course there would still have to be paperwork and regulation. The farmer would be HACCP and HSE registered. I never talked about deregulating anything, just taking back more control.

My original post was about having too much paperwork and needless bureaucracy and relinquishing too much power to the meat processors and the likes. I wasn't saying we need to get rid of it altogether!

I can do nothing but agree with you. You are correct. There is too much paperwork and bureaucracy. I would 100% support home slaughtering if farmers were HACCP trained and HSE regulated, and to add to that, if farmers had proper facilities for storing and disposing of offal and blood (instead of land spreading as was done up to 15 years ago). They would also have to have proper hanging facilities (cold store etc). But what is the difference between this and the small scale slaughter houses that already exist across the country?

I assume that these are the type of facilities that Clonmahon would also advocate for artizan producers?

What about testing? Would you agree that all meat should be tested to prevent hormones and diseased meat from entering the food chain?

My greatest concern is that people whould start slaughtering pigs, lambs and calves in their back garden, throwing bits of offal to the family dog who is licking up the blood, hanging meat in unsealed and unchilled sheds where flies could lay eggs on it and vermin could feast off the drip. This is how it was done in the olden day. I wouldn't buy meat from an artizan producer if I knew it was being produced in this manner. Would you??

fodda · 24-11-2011 01:31PM

Muckit wrote: »

I wasn't the one who brought up about the meat industry! But seeing as it was brought up, well.... factories are a big part of it!

As for traceability, it's coming off your own farm, how bloody traceable is that!!?? And of course there would still have to be paperwork and regulation. The farmer would be HACCP and HSE registered. I never talked about deregulating anything, just taking back more control.

My original post was about having too much paperwork and needless bureaucracy and relinquishing too much power to the meat processors and the likes. I wasn't saying we need to get rid of it altogether!

That's ok then what if you get qualified as a slaughterman by attending whatever courses and exams there are and your premises are passed fit for meat processing? Then you pay for the meat to be inspected before passing it on for consumption.

reilig · 24-11-2011 01:33PM

fodda wrote: »

That's ok then what if you get qualified as a slaughterman by attending whatever courses and exams there are and your premises are passed fit for meat processing? Then you pay for the meat to be inspected before passing it on for consumption.

There are already loads of small scale slaughter houses like this in existance across the country

Funsterdelux · 24-11-2011 01:33PM

Am I right in saying that its completely legal to kill your own hens (poultry) to eat?

And what makes them different to say lamb/pigs/beef?

Other than not been mammals!

clonmahon · 24-11-2011 01:33PM

reilig wrote: »

But if everyone has free reign to slaughter animals in their own back garden and "hang the meat in a shed" as pointed out above, then you'll have both skilled and non skilled people "taking a chance" and slaughtering for themselved.

This is true but no matter what regulations you impose this is happening anyway, people are slaughtering their own meat up long lanes.

reilig wrote: »

Nobody has issue with a skilled artizan producer slaughtering meat.

But the authorities do have an issue because they demand that a slaughterhouse which kills one animal a day must be kitted out to the exact same standard as a plant that kills thousands per day. They demand the same standards of a housewife making 10 cream sponges to sell at a car boot sale as they of a bakery making 3000 cakes a day. This is a total failure to recognize any difference in the scale of risks involved.

reilig wrote: »

Meat traceability in this country is in a good position which benefits both the producer and the consumer. This traceability scheme should not be allowed to be compromised because a small percentage of people want to be able to slaughter their own food!!

Again with all due respect this is where you are not comparing like with like. If offal from one of your animals ends up being used in some processed food product that kills people in Japan, there is a need to be able to trace it back to its source and remove it from the food chain.

But if some one rears and slaughters an animal in their own garden (as I have done in the past) and they are killed by the end product, there is no traceability issue. The chain starts in that persons garden and ends in their kitchen.

I totally accept your point that complex modern industrial food production processes need bullet proof traceability and rigid safety standards. My point is that to apply the same standards to a simple small scale food production system is witless and disproportionate

clonmahon · 24-11-2011 01:42PM

fodda wrote: »

TB was a major killer and meat inspections through regulations have stopped this.

The elimination of TB was not to do with meat inspection, it was antibiotics and the provision of proper sanitariums to confine patients that. In fact the incidents of antibiotic resistant TB are on the rise worldwide.

fodda wrote: »

BSE.....can you imagine if there wasnt strict regulations in force regards this?

BSE was caused by industrial agri business not by small scale food production.

fodda wrote: »

One bad event is all that it takes.......look at the most recent in Ireland.....contaminated animal feed and i think all exports of pork were banned in the countries who accepted them.

Again the point is the scale of risk involved with big scale complex food production systems. Big scale production and distribution big scale risk.

reilig · 24-11-2011 01:48PM

clonmahon wrote: »

But the authorities do have an issue because they demand that a slaughterhouse which kills one animal a day must be kitted out to the exact same standard as a plant that kills thousands per day. They demand the same standards of a housewife making 10 cream sponges to sell at a car boot sale as they of a bakery making 3000 cakes a day. This is a total failure to recognize any difference in the scale of risks involved.

Slaughterhouses just have to meet the same HACCP rules as a large scale meat plant. HACCP inspectors don't care if the kit used for slaughtering the animals is 100 years old or brand new - just as long as it is clean. Are you saying that just because a slaughter facility kills one animal per day, it shouldn't need to be as clean as a facility which kills 100 animals per day?

Your example of the sponge cakes isn't a great one. You, as a buyer of sponge cakes at a car boot sale would expect that the cakes be produced in as clean an environment as a factory producing 3000 cakes per day. If you heard that someone got food poisoning after buying one of the cakes at the car boot sale last week, then you wouldn't be inclined to buy one there this week?

fodda · 24-11-2011 01:50PM

clonmahon wrote: »

The elimination of TB was not to do with meat inspection, it was antibiotics and the provision of proper sanitariums to confine patients that. In fact the incidents of antibiotic resistant TB are on the rise worldwide.

fodda wrote: »

BSE.....can you imagine if there wasnt strict regulations in force regards this?

BSE was caused by industrial agri business not by small scale food production.

Again the point is the scale of risk involved with big scale complex food production systems. Big scale production and distribution big scale risk.

So nobody ever died or got ill in the old days from eating infected meat or drinking infected milk?

And it was the (infected/contaminated/bad) animal feed fed to animals which caused BSE.........just like you may have done when feeding your home reared but my point was the parts of the animal getting into the food chain where they arent allowed to now because of strict regulations.

Tora Bora · 24-11-2011 02:28PM

fodda wrote: »

I like most others relish the end of the EU but the one thing i would never want to see is a relaxing of animal welfare and food hygiene regulations.

Do that and the first thing tomorrow morning those who couldnt give a monkies will move in to make a quick buck and then there will be disaster........the result being there will be no confidence in how safe the food is which will just drive people back to the major shops in their droves.

Also i think any food which is supplied to the public in any form has to meet regulations regarding its safety and if anybody fell ill after you supplying them food.....:eek:

I mean our own meat, for our own consumption. Obviously not for sale, or supply. Not a hope.
There is no law whatsoever against, going out and shooting wild duck, pheasant, etc, etc, for your own table.
Likewise there is no law against, pulling a trout or salmon out of the river and cooking it, or freezing it for that matter.
There is no law against going down to the shore and hauling in makeral, and cooking or freezing.
The law preventing the killing of a pig or a sheep or two, is for ones own consumption, is out and out bullsh1t.
I have never, ever in my life heard of food poisoning from home slaughtered meat. The fact that it's for your own table, concentrates the mind, on matters of hygiene etc.
Our forefathers did it to perfection, and fed their families, with the best of meat. Why can't we? Because some beurocrat says so:(

reilig · 24-11-2011 02:39PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

I have never, ever in my life heard of food poisoning from home slaughtered meat. The fact that it's for your own table, concentrates the mind, on matters of hygiene etc.

I have. A neighbour died in 1984 from food poisoning from a bull calf that he slaughtered. He died from HPS (Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome). Google it.

So if someone came to your house for a meal, you wouldn't feed them the home slaughtered meat, you'd go out and buy traceable stuff?? :rolleyes:

rearing to kill.......

Comments