He's right on this....."scrap the childen allowance" says O'Leary.

Hannibal Smith · 22-11-2011 01:06PM

I'd hate if they did away with it. There's no legitimate argument to say why everyone should get it, but it does help out a lot. The constitution is very much a promotion of the family and an encouragement to protect the family, and on the back of that the State look after children pretty well. My son had to get glasses last month and the state paid for them!

But there's a lot of people who's child benefit doesn't go on the children. So I think if parents were being honest, yes it would be a killer to lose the child benefit...but do you really need it?

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 01:09PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I'd hate if they did away with it. There's no legitimate argument to say why everyone should get it, but it does help out a lot. The constitution is very much a promotion of the family and an encouragement to protect the family, and on the back of that the State look after children pretty well. My son had to get glasses last month and the state paid for them!

and when you say state you actually mean me and other tax payers. Why can't you pay for your own son glasses?

Hells Belle · 22-11-2011 01:11PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

Ah middle class "working class hero" is see. please tell me why is the crazy premise of getting a job and paying for your own children "stupid is as stupid does"!

That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to the ignorance of the comment of "squirting" out children you can't afford and spending the money on fags and drink. That's insulting and degrading. I work full time and pay my fair share of taxes.

We had our kids when we both had full time jobs. We, like most, didn't know there was a recession coming. I've taken a 17% pay cut, partner lost his job and gets €65 pw while on his 4th course. We don't get rent allowance, mortgage interest relief (thank god we have a small mortgage though), medical card, FIS, BTSA or any of the other things because I work full time for little over min wage. Last month we ran out of money and had to have sandwiches for dinner for 3 days. This is the reality.

The childrens allowance allows us to light the fire when it gets cold and maybe if we are good turn the oil on for an hour.

Idiots should get their facts right before trying to start a flame war.

Hells Belle · 22-11-2011 01:21PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

hells bells, see link for soical welfare cost

http://crimson-observer.blogspot.com/2010/01/irelands-soaring-social-welfare-bill.html

I don't know who is getting these payments but families like mine certainly are not.

On the flip side my boss earns €150,000 per year plus every benefit going and gets €700 per month C/A. You all pay for her pension too btw.

Anytime anyone mentions means testing its "ooh its so expensive" which translates in my head as "turkeys don't vote for Christmas". If they can means test JSB and Med cards why not CA?????

Hannibal Smith · 22-11-2011 01:27PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

and when you say state you actually mean me and other tax payers. Why can't you pay for your own son glasses?

Well I didn't think it was a distinction that needed clarifying, I think it's obvious to everyone the state = tax payer (which includes me btw)

I never said I couldn't...the state give you the money for them. And before you question my reasons for daring to accept the payment... I've worked full time all my life, as has my husband and paid our taxes so I feel justified in putting my hand in the kitty every once in a while.

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 01:35PM

Hells Belle wrote: »

That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to the ignorance of the comment of "squirting" out children you can't afford and spending the money on fags and drink. That's insulting and degrading. I work full time and pay my fair share of taxes.

I'm sorry if i came across as insulting but lets get real about things. at present a large section of young women see the welfare system as their career path. "get yourself sort" have you ever heard a mother saying this to her teenager. means get pregnant. its so prevelant in ireland its a joke.

Hells Belle wrote: »

We had our kids when we both had full time jobs. We, like most, didn't know there was a recession coming. I've taken a 17% pay cut, partner lost his job and gets €65 pw while on his 4th course. We don't get rent allowance, mortgage interest relief (thank god we have a small mortgage though), medical card, FIS, BTSA or any of the other things because I work full time for little over min wage. Last month we ran out of money and had to have sandwiches for dinner for 3 days. This is the reality.

The childrens allowance allows us to light the fire when it gets cold and maybe if we are good turn the oil on for an hour.

Idiots should get their facts right before trying to start a flame war.

I sympathise with you plight and its never nice to lose your job but in reality there's plenty of work out there if your prepared to work. i myself have my full time job which like you i've take a 15% cut over the last 2 yrs. to combat this i have adjusted my spending and set up small money making ventures to bring me back up to the level of income i'm accustomed to

Hells Belle wrote: »

I don't know who is getting these payments but families like mine certainly are not.

On the flip side my boss earns €150,000 per year plus every benefit going and gets €700 per month C/A. You all pay for her pension too btw.

Anytime anyone mentions means testing its "ooh its so expensive" which translates in my head as "turkeys don't vote for Christmas". If they can means test JSB and Med cards why not CA?????

So your agreeing with me, all these state payments to people should be scrapped?
your boss more than likely pays about 50k tax a year into the coffers of the state thats equates to 5 people in reciept of social welfare, wouldn't it be better if this money was used in schools as opposed to paying for Jasinta and her mates holiday in Santa ponza

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 01:41PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Well I didn't think it was a distinction that needed clarifying, I think it's obvious to everyone the state = tax payer (which includes me btw)

I never said I couldn't...the state give you the money for them. And before you question my reasons for daring to accept the payment... I've worked full time all my life, as has my husband and paid our taxes so I feel justified in putting my hand in the kitty every once in a while.

Sorry but its not the sates job to pay for your kids glasses no matter how much tax you paid over you life. its your job as a parent to do this. i can see why you did it, the system is there to be used but its fundamentally wrong

Plazaman · 22-11-2011 01:42PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

its actually closer to 4 bill for 2011

€2.1 billion. Just typing a higher figure won't mean it's true, let Google be your friend in research

Child benefit represents 10 per cent of all Department of Social Protection expenditure. It is estimated that close to €2.1 billion will be spent on the entitlement this year. The monthly rate, for first and second children, is €140 a child. The benefit has been cut in the last two budgets.

SOURCE

To means test every family in the Country in order to sort out who is entitled to Child Benefit and who is not, is currently a non runner. Having previously worked with application forms and mailshots, dealing with 4000 responses requires an army of staff and if you want it done quickly (i.e. within a fortnight) overtime. Now imagine 400,000 responses, not just responses but financial assessments, it'd take the guts of a full year to complete and cost more than it would save I'd imagine.

Could computerise it - lotto style sheets, tick you're income bracket but you'll be relying on the honesty of the respondants. Could outsource it to a private company but then sit back and watch the unions go ballistic.

Hells Belle · 22-11-2011 01:54PM

Sean sorry but I've never ever heard anyone say "get yourself sorted" and I'm most certainly not from a middle class area.

As to adjusting my spending, how can you adjust nothing??.....I'm very happy you could afford a "venture". I had a "venture" once called emigration which has been put on the long finger because I can't save for the airfare.

I do agree that state payments should be scrapped or reduced for some but a blanket scrapping or reducing just isn't fair, but then again when is Ireland ever fair to normal working people.

And there you go again about Jacinta and her holidays, do you have any links to back this up?

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 01:54PM

Plazaman wrote: »

€2.1 billion. Just typing a higher figure won't mean it's true, let Google be your friend in research.

my mistake i was read post wrong i though it said total social welfare cost for children which was 15.7% of 21.5b for 2009.

Plazaman wrote: »

To means test every family in the Country in order to sort out who is entitled to Child Benefit and who is not, is currently a non runner. Having previously worked with application forms and mailshots, dealing with 4000 responses requires an army of staff and if you want it done quickly (i.e. within a fortnight) overtime. Now imagine 400,000 responses, not just responses but financial assessments, it'd take the guts of a full year to complete and cost more than it would save I'd imagine.

Could computerise it - lotto style sheets, tick you're income bracket but you'll be relying on the honesty of the respondants. Could outsource it to a private company but then sit back and watch the unions go ballistic.

Yes it would be crazy to means test it. as i said before do away with it all together and introduce a system where people pay for their own chidren. its crazy i know.

Hells Belle · 22-11-2011 01:57PM

Plazaman wrote: »

€2.1 billion. Just typing a higher figure won't mean it's true, let Google be your friend in research

SOURCE

To means test every family in the Country in order to sort out who is entitled to Child Benefit and who is not, is currently a non runner. Having previously worked with application forms and mailshots, dealing with 4000 responses requires an army of staff and if you want it done quickly (i.e. within a fortnight) overtime. Now imagine 400,000 responses, not just responses but financial assessments, it'd take the guts of a full year to complete and cost more than it would save I'd imagine.

Could computerise it - lotto style sheets, tick you're income bracket but you'll be relying on the honesty of the respondants. Could outsource it to a private company but then sit back and watch the unions go ballistic.

Do revenue not know how much people make? You earn over say €60k*, you don't get it. Simples

*random figure before I get tore apart.

Hannibal Smith · 22-11-2011 02:00PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

Sorry but its not the sates job to pay for your kids glasses no matter how much tax you paid over you life. its your job as a parent to do this. i can see why you did it, the system is there to be used but its fundamentally wrong

I don't believe I was asking for your approval

I presume you don't claim tax back on anything? Nor will you at any stage in the future?

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 02:06PM

Hells Belle wrote: »

Sean sorry but I've never ever heard anyone say "get yourself sorted" and I'm most certainly not from a middle class area.

Well i have on numberous occasions on public transport over heard the mother discussing these exact thing, and the funny thing is i have to pay for their bus fare!!

Hells Belle wrote: »

As to adjusting my spending, how can you adjust nothing??.....I'm very happy you could afford a "venture". I had a "venture" once called emigration which has been put on the long finger because I can't save for the airfare.

my venture's cost nothing to set up. i have 2 side's on the go at the moment. 1 is my area of expertise ( accounting) i do books for family members and friends it cost me no more than a couple of hours a week. I teach guitar 1 night a week.
I've had in the past website's which re-sold items, cost nothing, you basically you act as a middle man between the orderer and the compnay selling the product.
So a bit of iniative from people would go a long way in getting some extra income at no cost

Hells Belle wrote: »

I do agree that state payments should be scrapped or reduced for some but a blanket scrapping or reducing just isn't fair, but then again when is Ireland ever fair to normal working people.

Life isn't fair hells, but you have to get on with it and not blame other people. there's a lot of money to be made out there and blaming the "elete class" for ****ting or the "REAL" working people is just a cop out

Hells Belle wrote: »

And there you go again about Jacinta and her holidays, do you have any links to back this up?

go to dublin airpot in the summer, all the back up you need.

Dudess · 22-11-2011 02:10PM

Working people get children's allowance so I don't get what the "Don't have kids if you can't afford them" stuff is about.

Well I don't understand why anyone would come out with that monumentally stupid line in any context, but there you go...

Wompa1 · 22-11-2011 02:14PM

What I don't get is the people saying don't you know how much it costs to have a kid, you're being ignorant etc.

If the alternative is to means test people then isn't that similar to what he is saying?

Do away with it and have it replaced by a Child Benefit that people apply for. Why should anyone be entitled to money just for having a kid? Because it's expensive?...why is that the tax payers problem? Why do people who may never have kids paying towards other peoples kids?

Galtee · 22-11-2011 02:33PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

What I don't get is the people saying don't you know how much it costs to have a kid, you're being ignorant etc.

If the alternative is to means test people then isn't that similar to what he is saying?

Do away with it and have it replaced by a Child Benefit that people apply for. Why should anyone be entitled to money just for having a kid? Because it's expensive?...why is that the tax payers problem? Why do people who may never have kids paying towards other peoples kids?

Because that's the system we live within. Why not scrap tax credits?

Wompa1 · 22-11-2011 02:40PM

Galtee wrote: »

Because that's the system we live within. Why not scrap tax credits?

I don't get it? What system do we live in that we have to give money to anybody with a hand out? We declaring socialism?

Yakult · 22-11-2011 02:46PM

When was child benefit introduced into the state?

Galtee · 22-11-2011 03:02PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

I don't get it? What system do we live in that we have to give money to anybody with a hand out? We declaring socialism?

OK, so you won't mind abolishing your tax credit then and the tax bands so that everyone pays one tax rate on everything they earn?

Helix · 22-11-2011 03:04PM

blackdog2 wrote: »

Not a choice in this country I am afraid; try again next referendum

I wasn't talking about abortion

Wompa1 · 22-11-2011 03:08PM

Galtee wrote: »

OK, so you won't mind abolishing your tax credit then and the tax bands so that everyone pays one tax rate on everything they earn?

Huh? I don't get your logic? Where are you coming from with this? Why would abolishing child benefit mean everyone paying the one tax rate?

What tax rate would you propose? I might fair better off myself in the long run, so maybe! :-)

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 03:11PM

Dudess wrote: »

Working people get children's allowance so I don't get what the "Don't have kids if you can't afford them" stuff is about.

Well I don't understand why anyone would come out with that monumentally stupid line in any context, but there you go...

okay i'll explain it to you in simple english. if you rely on children's allowance to pay for your children upbringing then don't have kid because at your current level of income you can't afford them,

simples

seanmc1980 · 22-11-2011 03:14PM

Galtee wrote: »

OK, so you won't mind abolishing your tax credit then and the tax bands so that everyone pays one tax rate on everything they earn?

why are you comparing social welfare payments with tax credits? i don't understand what your trying to convey?
soical welfare spend is taotally sepreate to the states revenue generating system?

moco · 22-11-2011 03:17PM

How mch is childrens allowance?

Sorry if it's in the thread, haven't time to read it all!

Is it something you have to apply for, or is it automatically paid to everyone?

Noopti · 22-11-2011 03:19PM

daltonmd wrote: »

I don't think so. Some people here are playing the man not the ball. It's not what was said, but who said it!!

It should be scrapped and in it's place there should be tax credits for low earners and means tested for social Welfare recipients.

He did re-hash it for publicity. He wouldn't have gone on to say something along the lines of "the government are paying people to have sex, I don't know about you but I am happy to have sex without being paid for it" if he wasn't looking for the media and everyone else to talk about it and thus him and his airline.

He re-hashed an argument that everyone has been banging on about for ages in order to gain publicity, and it worked of course. He is the master of coming out with the absurd (the original argument was not absurd, but the subsequent "sex payment" line was) to gain free publicity.

Faolchu · 22-11-2011 03:28PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

okay i'll explain it to you in simple english. if you rely on children's allowance to pay for your children upbringing then don't have kid because at your current level of income you can't afford them,

simples

couldnt have said it better myself really. personally i think it shoudl be scrapped, why should my tax money be used to fund your lifestyle choice, and being a parent is a lifestyle choice. if you want to be a parent, fair play but dont expect me to pay you for it. its you kid you feed it.

i dont normally agree with O'Leary but in this case i think he's right. scrap it completly and channel that funding into other benifits that way those that really do need it will still get it those that dont wont.

Or food stamps, no more cash for childrens allowance, food stamps that can only be used to pay for things like bread, milk, meant, veg, nappies, baby formula etc. the essentials for living. maybe even restrict it further that the stamps can not be used if Alcohol/fags are purchased at the same time. so it ensures they are used on food only

saa · 22-11-2011 03:29PM

He is right and its sad but we're going to have to learn how to live poor again and budget everything and if you do then we're all going to get better at it as the cuts need to happen, and yes not the most vulnerable.

I know very well the costs of growing up as a child without a lot resources.
Shoes once a year, no brand named clothes, quality family time and activities with a toy not just a big toy or loads of toys, no pocket money, basic meals, playing outside to save on the elecy, reading, going to the library, no holidays, no lavish birthday parties, cheap craft activities and there is just so much more.. or less should I say. And that was in the early boom times as well mind you.

But let me just say this when will the schools go back to basics!
How can books cost 300 euro a year plus why can't they be passed down so the only set of books you have to buy is in your final year or to supplement.
50 euro jumpers just for a crest, 5 or 10 euro being requested here and there for this and that.

Faolchu · 22-11-2011 03:33PM

saa wrote: »

50 euro jumpers just for a crest, .

I dont have kids but that is a joke. I know someone and their school allows the school tracksuit to be worn instead of pants and jumper. there is a class photo being taken in teh last week of teh last year for students and tehy all MUST wear teh pants and jumper. now i know my mate wont be buying a €50 jumper for one day of school and i dont think a school shoudl expect tjem to either.

Hells Belle · 22-11-2011 03:35PM

It's €140 per month per child. You get more if you have multiples.

In most other developed nations people are encouraged to have children, it has something to do with the small matter of ageing populations and those children paying tax to help with your pension/healthcare when you are old. It helps if those children are well fed, healthy and educated.

In Australia they do it through a tax credit system, same in the UK, I see no problem in that but it's a bit too complicated for us so we probably wouldn't bother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

Irl rates were reduced in last budget.

My name is URL · 22-11-2011 03:39PM

seanmc1980 wrote: »

okay i'll explain it to you in simple english. if you rely on children's allowance to pay for your children upbringing then don't have kid because at your current level of income you can't afford them,

simples

lol.. it costs about €200,000 to raise a child from birth until they reach 21/ finish college. If every single person were required to show that they can afford to do that before they have kids then hardly anyone would be giving birth. Who decides how much income you need to have before you get to have a kid? I'm sure you can see 20 odd years into the future though, in your infinite wisdom; and guarantee that you will never ever depend on help from anyone else.

He's right on this....."scrap the childen allowance" says O'Leary.

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