How much better off this nation would be if COWEN never entered politics?

parker kent · 14-11-2011 11:49PM

Swampy wrote: »

And there's me thinking we'd seen the last of the FF threads.

Zzzz.

Dey took our jobbbbsss!!

Rabble rabble etc.

namloc1980 · 14-11-2011 11:50PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Brian Cowen is just the gobsh*te that jumped into the fire when Bertie abandoned ship. We'd still be in the same position.

Let us never forget that Cowen (and Lenihan) were the men who created and signed off on the Bank Guarantee....the single worst economic decision in the history of this State.

the groutch · 14-11-2011 11:50PM

If it wasnt Cowen, it would have been someone else.

44leto · 14-11-2011 11:53PM

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

amacca · 14-11-2011 11:54PM

Swampy wrote: »

And there's me thinking we'd seen the last of the FF threads.

Zzzz.

my aren't we an optimistic one...thats nearly as good as the opening line now I don't want this to descend into a public v private slagging match but the other day my friends uncles cousins dyslexic disabled blind half brother told my cousin that....is this true etc

My name is URL · 14-11-2011 11:56PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Let us never forget that Cowen (and Lenihan) were the men who created and signed off on the Bank Guarantee....the single worst economic decision in the history of this State.

And all parties but Labour were in favor of it at the time, and most likely would have done the same thing.

Brian2850 · 14-11-2011 11:56PM

Why couldn't Mary Hanafin lead the government! She really looked like she knew what she was talking about tonight:-)

Good loser · 14-11-2011 11:56PM

I think the real damage was done in 2.5 years - 2005, 2006 and first half of 2007.
By 2005 the momentum was so great it would have taken an iron will and superhuman effort to stop it.

amacca · 14-11-2011 11:57PM

44leto wrote: »

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

namloc1980 · 14-11-2011 11:58PM

My name is URL wrote: »

And all parties but Labour were in favor of it at the time, and most likely would have done the same thing.

That's because Lenny and Cowen told the country that the Bank's only had a funding issue, when in fact the Bank's were insolvent and bust.

amacca · 15-11-2011 12:00AM

Brian2850 wrote: »

Why couldn't Mary Hanafin lead the government! She really looked like she knew what she was talking about tonight:-)

because she is not actually a real person..... she is actually a snipe that learned english and became a spokes snipe for the government because she served the useful purpose that she could be wheeled out to defend literally any unpopular policy they would try to implement

Quiet you · 15-11-2011 12:01AM

squod wrote: »

Disagree entirely.

Based on?

It's black and white. Cowen's mistake and I see it as a massive one was to sit back and say nothing after McCreevey wandered to Europe and let Bertie persue the nonsense unsustainable policies that suited him and his buddies.

Thanks Whore · 15-11-2011 12:08AM

44leto wrote: »

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

I agree with your final sentiment, but I don't think you can blame the media for anything. It isn't the media's job to report anything or surface/expose scandals. Even the likes of RTE, the media's primary objective is to stay competitive and stay afloat. In that sense it is like a loaded gun, and cannot fire itself. It takes advertisers, the ones shooting the gun, to fire it. And that's why a newspaper will never publish a story against one of their sponsors. Without them they would go under.

The editors job is to keep the sponsors happy and stop the surfacing of scandals that might damage the reputation of their sponsors. In doing so they may pull out meaning in a ridiculous amount of lost revenue.

That's just me talking shíte though so it's probably worth a shake of the salt cellar before digging in.

Quiet you · 15-11-2011 12:08AM

amacca wrote: »

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

I get what you're saying. I was lucky and didn't feel I needed a mortgage so refused to take one on but not everyone was in the same position. When "we" is said in this context its about Irish society in general.

My name is URL · 15-11-2011 12:12AM

namloc1980 wrote: »

That's because Lenny and Cowen told the country that the Bank's only had a funding issue, when in fact the Bank's were insolvent and bust.

They agreed to idea that banks would be bailed out if they needed to be, whatever way FF sold it to them. They voted for the state to serve as guarantors for the money that banks were borrowing at a time when all parties knew that the banking sector was over stretched.

Those who supported the original guarantee cannot claim to have been duped, and at the same time postulate to be competent.

44leto · 15-11-2011 12:13AM

amacca wrote: »

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

I stand by it, what if Cowen when he was Finance minister in his first budget brought in measures to cool down the economy and put some breaks on development. He could have, but at that time nearly 15% to 20% of the economy was in the building sector.

We would have condemned him for those measures, it would not have been only the golden circle and the bankers who would have suffered but the well paid builders and the whole economy. In hindsight he should have. But how was he to know about Credit default swaps and the sub prime mortgage derivatives that was at that time ticking away in the interbank markets.

I really don't think anyone is to blame. When Cowen was incompetent was the whole business of the bank guarantee, NAMA and FKCKing Anglo. But Lenihan had a big hand at that. I liken Cowen's leadership at that time to a rabbit staring into the headlights of an oncoming steamroller.

namloc1980 · 15-11-2011 12:19AM

My name is URL wrote: »

They agreed to idea that banks would be bailed out if they needed to be, whatever way FF sold it to them. They voted for the state to serve as guarantors for the money that banks were borrowing at a time when all parties knew that the banking sector was over stretched.

Those who supported the original guarantee cannot claim to have been duped, and at the same time postulate to be competent.

There is a world of difference between selling something as a funding issue and the reality being that the Banks were bust. Trying to say they were the same is disingenuous.

44leto · 15-11-2011 12:21AM

Thanks Whore wrote: »

I agree with your final sentiment, but I don't think you can blame the media for anything. It isn't the media's job to report anything or surface/expose scandals. Even the likes of RTE, the media's primary objective is to stay competitive and stay afloat. In that sense it is like a loaded gun, and cannot fire itself. It takes advertisers, the ones shooting the gun, to fire it. And that's why a newspaper will never publish a story against one of their sponsors. Without them they would go under.

The editors job is to keep the sponsors happy and stop the surfacing of scandals that might damage the reputation of their sponsors. In doing so they may pull out meaning in a ridiculous amount of lost revenue.

That's just me talking shíte though so it's probably worth a shake of the salt cellar before digging in.

I agree to an extent, but there were journalists writing about the disaster that could happen. Morgan Kelly, even Mc Williams, but remember it was not only here that slumped, although we got it worse, the whole world got walloped with the surprise, it came out of the blue and as we all know, no-where near played out.

So you could actually go back and blame the deregulation of the banking markets to Reagan and Thatcher. So I would not attach the Blame for all our present woes on Cowen.

parker kent · 15-11-2011 12:22AM

44leto wrote: »

We would have condemned him for those measures, it would not have been only the golden circle and the bankers who would have suffered but the well paid builders and the whole economy. In hindsight he should have. But how was he to know about Credit default swaps and the sub prime mortgage derivatives that was at that time ticking away in the interbank markets.

This is true. If in say 2004, there was a conservative budget the 6one news would have been full of whining about "wasted opportunities" and how the government were not being generous enough. In fact, if you go back to what are now considered the giveaway budgets that helped fúck us up, there were still people moaning about the government not being generous. FF won election after election because they gave the galleries more or less what they wanted. And any other party would have done the same thing to stay in power.

Very few people in Ireland were paying attention to global warnings about our economy. In 2000 The Economist warned we were a bubble waiting to burst. But vast amounts of the public were caught up in the boom. To paraphrase Bertie, they thought that the boom was going to get boomer.

amacca · 15-11-2011 12:23AM

44leto wrote: »

I stand by it, what if Cowen when he was Finance minister in his first budget brought in measures to cool down the economy and put some breaks on development. He could have, but at that time nearly 15% to 20% of the economy was in the building sector.

I wanted/needed a house (more wanted in truth) not so long ago..... before this whole thing broke

I just couldn't justify the expenditure....after sitting down and working out the repayments I couldnt justify it...I didn't buy into the "ponzi scheme" as you call it albeit with the addition of some advice from my dad

so I stand by not being part of the "we" on that count at least

btw given the prices of a decent house in my area at the time I would have welcomed anything that brought them down to a sane level...i would not have been criticising Cowen if he done as you suggested above or at least made some slow acting moves to cure our over reliance on property

Quiet you · 15-11-2011 12:27AM

44leto wrote: »

I stand by it, what if Cowen when he was Finance minister in his first budget brought in measures to cool down the economy and put some breaks on development. He could have, but at that time nearly 15% to 20% of the economy was in the building sector.
.

This is the major failing in Cowen. He inherited a situation where the economy was fueled by construction and property helped out with little to no banking regulation, a situation happily encouraged and supported by Berite and McCreevey. It would have taken balls of steel and a willingness to commit professional suicide to act at that stage to slow things down to a more manageable level.

He should have seen it coming and should have acted with the nations interests in mind but to be honest I'm positive that there's no politician in the country that would have done that.

As for the bank guarantee. They lied to the government and forced them to make a rash decision. In hindsight it was a poor decision but as has been said already in this thread, all but Labour supported it.

Laisurg · 15-11-2011 12:31AM

Ehh.... probably not that much better.... I mean Haughty or Bertie maybe but cmon now Cowen may have been an idiot but he didn't single handedly destroy the country.

pragmatic1 · 15-11-2011 12:34AM

parker kent wrote: »

This is true. If in say 2004, there was a conservative budget the 6one news would have been full of whining about "wasted opportunities" and how the government were not being generous enough. In fact, if you go back to what are now considered the giveaway budgets that helped fúck us up, there were still people moaning about the government not being generous. FF won election after election because they gave the galleries more or less what they wanted. And any other party would have done the same thing to stay in power.

Very few people in Ireland were paying attention to global warnings about our economy. In 2000 The Economist warned we were a bubble waiting to burst. But vast amounts of the public were caught up in the boom. To paraphrase Bertie, they thought that the boom was going to get boomer.

So what. People would moan. I'm sure people in other European countries who are doing a whole lot better than us moan too. Its the job of the government to look after the nations security, not to pander to public opinion. This we were all to blame stuff is bull. Negligence on the part of the last government is the reason we're in this mess.

LighterGuy · 15-11-2011 12:36AM

Quiet you wrote: »

Ugh........... Bertie was the cause. Cowen just watched. Pay attention.

Thats the impression I am under too.
Wasnt Cowen's fault. Of course he was no better than bertie. But damage was already done by the time Cowen got elected.

Its kinda like me fu*king up a company .. bringing it down into the ground and then someone else takes over as CEO and they are blamed for the downfall.

fatalll · 15-11-2011 12:39AM

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Just watching RTE1 and I cannot help but think how much better off we would be if BIFFO had NEVER entered into a career in politics?

I think It was his previous leader who is to blame...
yeah he takes some responsibility as does Charlie McCreevy..
basically FF....

44leto · 15-11-2011 12:40AM

Well I benefited from the Tiger years, so I was in that we I had my foreign holidays, nixers and pay rises, although I never went mad or believed it could last forever I was at least optimistic and if Cowen cooled down the economy when the world was booming I would have criticised. Remember at one stage be it briefly Ireland was the richest country per capita in the world.

So I still believe it was one great mass illusion which at some level we all fell for. Look how ridicules this sounds now, Ballsbridge was once the most expensive real estate on the planet.

I criticise Cowen and his government for the initial handling of the crisis, that was awful. but that is all. Then we really did need prudent and daring leadership, he was not the man to give that. He was very easily led and said he took very bad advice and believed a lot of banker's lies.

280special · 15-11-2011 12:50AM

That Biffo was, is and always will be a gob****e.

Probably a lot of you wont remember the bank strke back in the early 90's. Biffo was Minister of Labour at the time and allowed one Bank out of the four big banks to cause the whole industry to close down for 3 weeks and cause ordinary people a lot of grief. Even back then he was too much on the side of the boys with the big bucks, to take them on for the good of the country.

Lets not forget that he stood by as Minister of Finance when if he had any guts he could have seen the obvious flaws in our economics and spoken out. But he didnt.

That particular arrogant, self centred piece of work is a traitor to this country and should be in jail along with his business and banking cronies.

parker kent · 15-11-2011 12:53AM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

So what. People would moan. I'm sure people in other European countries who are doing a whole lot better than us moan too. Its the job of the government to look after the nations security, not to pander to public opinion. This we were all to blame stuff is bull. Negligence on the part of the last government is the reason we're in this mess.

You'll notice that I don't actually absolve them of blame. Obviously they share an extremely large part of the blame. Nonetheless, the wider public needs to share some of the blame. Bertie Ahern didn't come round and force people to take out ridiculous mortgages. Sean Fitzpatrick didn't force anybody to take out loans they could not afford to re-pay. People DO need to share some of the blame. People are not remote control robots, they do have free will.

Of course people moan in other countries. Humans are a greedy, selfish animal. Of course the job of governments is to look after the nation, instead of pandering to the public. But if they don't pander to the public, they won't win the next election and will then have no opportunity to do anything. That is the flaw in party politics. It boils down to who can keep the mob happiest. If Fianna Fail did not give their standard giveaway budget just before an election, then they may well have been voted out.

Just to add one more time before people claim otherwise, yes of course the government shares a massive amount of the blame. But so does society, businesses, banks, the world economy, the war on terror etc. To childishly blame one man (as this thread seemingly intended), is idiotic.

starlit · 15-11-2011 01:37AM

yep we would have been way better off.

pragmatic1 · 15-11-2011 01:42AM

parker kent wrote: »

You'll notice that I don't actually absolve them of blame. Obviously they share an extremely large part of the blame. Nonetheless, the wider public needs to share some of the blame. Bertie Ahern didn't come round and force people to take out ridiculous mortgages. Sean Fitzpatrick didn't force anybody to take out loans they could not afford to re-pay. People DO need to share some of the blame. People are not remote control robots, they do have free will.

Of course people moan in other countries. Humans are a greedy, selfish animal. Of course the job of governments is to look after the nation, instead of pandering to the public. But if they don't pander to the public, they won't win the next election and will then have no opportunity to do anything. That is the flaw in party politics. It boils down to who can keep the mob happiest. If Fianna Fail did not give their standard giveaway budget just before an election, then they may well have been voted out.

Just to add one more time before people claim otherwise, yes of course the government shares a massive amount of the blame. But so does society, businesses, banks, the world economy, the war on terror etc. To childishly blame one man (as this thread seemingly intended), is idiotic.

I dont blame just Cowen. Question though. If we had proper regulation within the banks, would we be in this mess at the moment?

How much better off this nation would be if COWEN never entered politics?

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