How much better off this nation would be if COWEN never entered politics?

Belly_Dancer

Just watching RTE1 and I cannot help but think how much better off we would be if BIFFO had NEVER entered into a career in politics?

John Doe1

17 % better

partyatmygaff

Not that much better off.

He's hardly the sole or even the main reason for any of the trouble the country is now in.

*Cough* Bertie, Bankers, Developers, Flawed society.

Quiet you

Ugh........... Bertie was the cause. Cowen just watched. Pay attention.

squod

<----This much---->

Dazza

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not that much better off.

He's hardly the sole or even the main reason for any of the trouble the country is now in.

*Cough* Bertie.

Bertie did ONLY great things for this country

Dotrel

Bertie caused the mess. Biffo was just thick enough to accept the job after him.

AnonoBoy

Don't worry there was a rake of other incompetent morons waiting in the wings to take his place.

galwayrush

No difference, have you forgotten Bertie?

AG2R

Not very, another wanker would have ****ed it up anyways

squod

Just to clarify. Cowen bailed Anglo in a recession, acted against the advice he was given and caused a major economic and social catastrophe. Him. Not Bertie.

Wile E. Coyote

Brian Cowen is just the gobsh*te that jumped into the fire when Bertie abandoned ship. We'd still be in the same position.

Andy!!

And if Al Gore had become US president... sure it would be a different world altogether. Very little use dredging up the past, just work for the future.


But yeah Cowen is a ****bag and should be in prison really... along with a few others I'd like to see locked up.

newfrontier

Clearly alot better off but why did we all stand idly by and do nothing? We need a new sysytem ..the current gov are implementing the same policies..so where is the change we voted for? What will happen next?

Dotrel

We have turned a corner.

pragmatic1

Plenty more crooks in FF that would have taken his place and plenty more idiots in the country that would have voted for them.

galwayrush

Dotrel wrote: »

We have turned a corner.

Yeah, turned so much it was a full 360 degree turn.

earpiece

It was féckin Fianna féckin Fail the féckers.
Arse biscuits in power way tooooo long.

Quiet you

squod wrote: »

Just to clarify. Cowen bailed Anglo in a recession, acted against the advice he was given and caused a major economic and social catastrophe. Him. Not Bertie.

He wouldn't have had to even consider doing that if it wasn't for Bertie and that weasel Mc Creevey.

Honestly. It's not a tricky topic. It's pretty black and white. Fianna Fail led by Bertie got us to where we are. The most important point there being "led by Bertie".

uberwolf

squod wrote: »

Just to clarify. Cowen bailed Anglo in a recession, acted against the advice he was given and caused a major economic and social catastrophe. Him. Not Bertie.

and bertie told people giving him advice against the party line to commit suicide. yeah yeah.

Chuck Stone

Don't look back in anger little one.

El Weirdo

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

skelliser

well done on beleiving that it was all Cowen's fault.
Seriously! do you have an ounce of intelligence?!

Cause this is exactly what FF have set out to do. Blame it on the fall guy.
And of course the idiots in this country will beleive it and return the parasite that is FF to gov. in the future.


Lets be clear, everyone in that gov. is to blame.

squod

Quiet you wrote: »

He wouldn't have had to even consider doing that if it wasn't for Bertie and that weasel Mc Creevey.

Honestly. It's not a tricky topic. It's pretty black and white. Fianna Fail led by Bertie got us to where we are. The most important point there being "led by Bertie".

Disagree entirely.

amacca

haughey, mccreevy, bertie, etc etc.....theres a whole hall of fame before you ever get near Cowen..he is not nearly as culpable as his predecessors

why arent they doing a bertie special

amacca

El Weirdo wrote: »

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

or your uncle presuming he is a heterosexual male with no interest in "alternative lifestyles" would be a very upset man

parker kent

The idea that one man made all the difference is a bit idiotic.

FetchTheGin

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Plenty more crooks in FF that would have taken his place and plenty more idiots in the country that would have voted for them.

You only have to look at the presidential election and the amount of votes Gallagher got, I couldn't believe that many idiots could vote for him after all the FF cronyism he was involved in. It's despairing.

amacca

squod wrote: »

Disagree entirely.

entirely?......Bertie bears no responsibility?

I have to say I disagree entirely if that is your position.

Swampy

And there's me thinking we'd seen the last of the FF threads.

Zzzz.

Crazy Horse 6

Bertie was the problem Cowen and comical Lenny just made it worse. In any other country Ahern would have been shot for crimes against the nation.

parker kent

Swampy wrote: »

And there's me thinking we'd seen the last of the FF threads.

Zzzz.

Dey took our jobbbbsss!!

Rabble rabble etc.

namloc1980

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Brian Cowen is just the gobsh*te that jumped into the fire when Bertie abandoned ship. We'd still be in the same position.

Let us never forget that Cowen (and Lenihan) were the men who created and signed off on the Bank Guarantee....the single worst economic decision in the history of this State.

the groutch

If it wasnt Cowen, it would have been someone else.

44leto

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

amacca

Swampy wrote: »

And there's me thinking we'd seen the last of the FF threads.

Zzzz.

my aren't we an optimistic one...thats nearly as good as the opening line now I don't want this to descend into a public v private slagging match but the other day my friends uncles cousins dyslexic disabled blind half brother told my cousin that....is this true etc

My name is URL

namloc1980 wrote: »

Let us never forget that Cowen (and Lenihan) were the men who created and signed off on the Bank Guarantee....the single worst economic decision in the history of this State.

And all parties but Labour were in favor of it at the time, and most likely would have done the same thing.

Brian2850

Why couldn't Mary Hanafin lead the government! She really looked like she knew what she was talking about tonight:-)

Good loser

I think the real damage was done in 2.5 years - 2005, 2006 and first half of 2007.
By 2005 the momentum was so great it would have taken an iron will and superhuman effort to stop it.

amacca

44leto wrote: »

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

namloc1980

My name is URL wrote: »

And all parties but Labour were in favor of it at the time, and most likely would have done the same thing.

That's because Lenny and Cowen told the country that the Bank's only had a funding issue, when in fact the Bank's were insolvent and bust.

amacca

Brian2850 wrote: »

Why couldn't Mary Hanafin lead the government! She really looked like she knew what she was talking about tonight:-)

because she is not actually a real person..... she is actually a snipe that learned english and became a spokes snipe for the government because she served the useful purpose that she could be wheeled out to defend literally any unpopular policy they would try to implement

Quiet you

squod wrote: »

Disagree entirely.

Based on?

It's black and white. Cowen's mistake and I see it as a massive one was to sit back and say nothing after McCreevey wandered to Europe and let Bertie persue the nonsense unsustainable policies that suited him and his buddies.

Thanks Whore

44leto wrote: »

I wouldn't blame Cowen, Bertie and mainly Mc Creevy share a lot of the blame, but its more complex. The media were pumping out the dream as well and we thought we were great and invincible we all thought it could last forever.

I have come to the conclusion it was a mass hysteria, we all fell for the ponsi scheme that was the Celtic tiger.

I agree with your final sentiment, but I don't think you can blame the media for anything. It isn't the media's job to report anything or surface/expose scandals. Even the likes of RTE, the media's primary objective is to stay competitive and stay afloat. In that sense it is like a loaded gun, and cannot fire itself. It takes advertisers, the ones shooting the gun, to fire it. And that's why a newspaper will never publish a story against one of their sponsors. Without them they would go under.

The editors job is to keep the sponsors happy and stop the surfacing of scandals that might damage the reputation of their sponsors. In doing so they may pull out meaning in a ridiculous amount of lost revenue.



That's just me talking shíte though so it's probably worth a shake of the salt cellar before digging in.

Quiet you

amacca wrote: »

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

I get what you're saying. I was lucky and didn't feel I needed a mortgage so refused to take one on but not everyone was in the same position. When "we" is said in this context its about Irish society in general.

My name is URL

namloc1980 wrote: »

That's because Lenny and Cowen told the country that the Bank's only had a funding issue, when in fact the Bank's were insolvent and bust.

They agreed to idea that banks would be bailed out if they needed to be, whatever way FF sold it to them. They voted for the state to serve as guarantors for the money that banks were borrowing at a time when all parties knew that the banking sector was over stretched.

Those who supported the original guarantee cannot claim to have been duped, and at the same time postulate to be competent.

44leto

amacca wrote: »

I thanked your post because there is a lot of truth in it imo........I'm not liking this "we all" bit however

we all (or at least the vast majority of us) will have to suffer the consequences but we all were not responsible for creating it

I stand by it, what if Cowen when he was Finance minister in his first budget brought in measures to cool down the economy and put some breaks on development. He could have, but at that time nearly 15% to 20% of the economy was in the building sector.

We would have condemned him for those measures, it would not have been only the golden circle and the bankers who would have suffered but the well paid builders and the whole economy. In hindsight he should have. But how was he to know about Credit default swaps and the sub prime mortgage derivatives that was at that time ticking away in the interbank markets.

I really don't think anyone is to blame. When Cowen was incompetent was the whole business of the bank guarantee, NAMA and FKCKing Anglo. But Lenihan had a big hand at that. I liken Cowen's leadership at that time to a rabbit staring into the headlights of an oncoming steamroller.

namloc1980

My name is URL wrote: »

They agreed to idea that banks would be bailed out if they needed to be, whatever way FF sold it to them. They voted for the state to serve as guarantors for the money that banks were borrowing at a time when all parties knew that the banking sector was over stretched.

Those who supported the original guarantee cannot claim to have been duped, and at the same time postulate to be competent.

There is a world of difference between selling something as a funding issue and the reality being that the Banks were bust. Trying to say they were the same is disingenuous.

44leto

Thanks Whore wrote: »

I agree with your final sentiment, but I don't think you can blame the media for anything. It isn't the media's job to report anything or surface/expose scandals. Even the likes of RTE, the media's primary objective is to stay competitive and stay afloat. In that sense it is like a loaded gun, and cannot fire itself. It takes advertisers, the ones shooting the gun, to fire it. And that's why a newspaper will never publish a story against one of their sponsors. Without them they would go under.

The editors job is to keep the sponsors happy and stop the surfacing of scandals that might damage the reputation of their sponsors. In doing so they may pull out meaning in a ridiculous amount of lost revenue.



That's just me talking shíte though so it's probably worth a shake of the salt cellar before digging in.

I agree to an extent, but there were journalists writing about the disaster that could happen. Morgan Kelly, even Mc Williams, but remember it was not only here that slumped, although we got it worse, the whole world got walloped with the surprise, it came out of the blue and as we all know, no-where near played out.

So you could actually go back and blame the deregulation of the banking markets to Reagan and Thatcher. So I would not attach the Blame for all our present woes on Cowen.

parker kent

44leto wrote: »

We would have condemned him for those measures, it would not have been only the golden circle and the bankers who would have suffered but the well paid builders and the whole economy. In hindsight he should have. But how was he to know about Credit default swaps and the sub prime mortgage derivatives that was at that time ticking away in the interbank markets.

This is true. If in say 2004, there was a conservative budget the 6one news would have been full of whining about "wasted opportunities" and how the government were not being generous enough. In fact, if you go back to what are now considered the giveaway budgets that helped fúck us up, there were still people moaning about the government not being generous. FF won election after election because they gave the galleries more or less what they wanted. And any other party would have done the same thing to stay in power.

Very few people in Ireland were paying attention to global warnings about our economy. In 2000 The Economist warned we were a bubble waiting to burst. But vast amounts of the public were caught up in the boom. To paraphrase Bertie, they thought that the boom was going to get boomer.

amacca

44leto wrote: »

I stand by it, what if Cowen when he was Finance minister in his first budget brought in measures to cool down the economy and put some breaks on development. He could have, but at that time nearly 15% to 20% of the economy was in the building sector.

I wanted/needed a house (more wanted in truth) not so long ago..... before this whole thing broke

I just couldn't justify the expenditure....after sitting down and working out the repayments I couldnt justify it...I didn't buy into the "ponzi scheme" as you call it albeit with the addition of some advice from my dad

so I stand by not being part of the "we" on that count at least

btw given the prices of a decent house in my area at the time I would have welcomed anything that brought them down to a sane level...i would not have been criticising Cowen if he done as you suggested above or at least made some slow acting moves to cure our over reliance on property