Italy On The Edge Of Bailout

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 06:17PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Idiotic. That would destroy the entire economy.

The money earned in the public sector goes towards buying goods and services in the private and vice versa. One can't survive with the other.

Damage one and you damage the other.

Bollox, private sector businessses have to balance what goes out with what comes in. We are running a 20 billion difference this year in what we are spending out over what we are taking in, there is only one thing to call that, INSANITY. What you are suggesting is that we just bundle that up as a loan, and add it to another 20 billion next year or 30 billion or whatever it will be and then the same in 2013. It all has to be paid back at some stage, so who will be paying it back??? There comes a point when this debt cannot be paid back, we've already reached that point.

Benny_Cake · 09-11-2011 06:18PM

Mazeire wrote: »

Great. Except my landlord doesn't take rent payment in the form of organic produce. Neither do the ESB.

Give it a few months and they just might be accepting vegetables as payment!

Simtech · 09-11-2011 06:21PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Bollox, private sector businessses have to balance what goes out with what comes in. We are running a 20 billion difference this year in what we are spending out over what we are taking in, there is only one thing to call that, INSANITY. What you are suggesting is that we just bundle that up as a loan, and add it to another 20 billion next year or 30 billion or whatever it will be and then the same in 2013. It all has to be paid back at some stage, so who will be paying it back??? There comes a point when this debt cannot be paid back, we've already reached that point.

When you pull 20-30 billion out of the economy, all of a sudden the private sector is down 20-30 billion. How do they balance their books with no money coming in?

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 06:25PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Bollox, private sector businessses have to balance what goes out with what comes in. We are running a 20 billion difference this year in what we are spending out over what we are taking in, there is only one thing to call that, INSANITY. What you are suggesting is that we just bundle that up as a loan, and add it to another 20 billion next year or 30 billion or whatever it will be and then the same in 2013. It all has to be paid back at some stage, so who will be paying it back??? There comes a point when this debt cannot be paid back, we've already reached that point.

Right so. We'll use you plan. Teachers, soldiers and police don't generate any money for the public sector. They're gone. Close the schools and police stations and disband the defence forces.

Oh look, the social welfare benefits we pay out don't generate any income. Let's axe the €23 billion a year we pay out for that. Now no one gets the dole or old age pension.

You genius, you've saved the nation by starving population to death. Good job

Simtech · 09-11-2011 06:26PM

Well the soldiers don't starve, they take their guns home!

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 06:33PM

Simtech wrote: »

When you pull 20-30 billion out of the economy, all of a sudden the private sector is down 20-30 billion. How do they balance their books with no money coming in?

If there was a half competent government running this country, there wouldn't be nearly 500,000 people on the dole. There would be a stable employment situation here and there would be a state of equilibrium between the private sector and the public sector, in terms of not just pay, but terms & conditions of employment, etc.

I run a business in this country and the whole thing is set up so that businesses, instead of being viewed as a positive thing for the country that can create jobs, and prosperity, are viewed as something to be bled completely f*cking dry with a 10.75% tax on job creation, commercial rates that would make your eyes water, insanely high costs for ESB, and for what?!?!?

Why do we have to pay commercial rates on buildings, and stupid amounts of money for everything from water to ESB to tolls?!?!?

TO PAY FOR A DYSFUNCTIONAL PUBLIC SECTOR!!!!!!

I wouldn't mind if jobs were being created, THEY AREN'T!!! Every single month, there the live register goes in only one direction, UP!!!

All we need to ask ourselves, is where are we going to end up??? I'll tell you where, in the f*cking national toilet if we keep these policies up.

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 06:41PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Right so. We'll use you plan. Teachers, soldiers and police don't generate any money for the public sector. They're gone. Close the schools and police stations and disband the defence forces.

Oh look, the social welfare benefits we pay out don't generate any income. Let's axe the €23 billion a year we pay out for that. Now no one gets the dole or old age pension.

You genius, you've saved the nation by starving population to death. Good job

This is the kind of belligerance that we have all come to appreciate from PS workers like yourself.

There needs to be an economic model pursued that works. For this to happen, we need a certain amount of people providing public services, that can do the job competently, and they need to be paid a fair salary for what they do.

There also needs to be a functioning private sector that creates jobs ina steady and consistent manner, instead of causing businesses to close one month after the other.

There should never be a situation allowed to emerge again where we have a public sector that is protected and cossetted from any and all of the normal rules of staff retention that are understood to operate everywhere else in the economic world apart from public sector workplaces.

This is two halves of the reason why we have a massive deficit, (one half being the fact that we have too many public servants on too high a salary and the other half being the fact that in order to pay for this, we are taxing the absolute and utter sh*t out of everything in the private sector, which is causing massive job losses...

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 06:41PM

You do realise it was the private sector who were the main drivers of our false economic boom?

It's private sector investors and bond holders were paying back as a large part of our debts as well. Probably not a great idea to hold the up as shiny bastions of economic genius.

Benny_Cake · 09-11-2011 06:45PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is two halves of the reason why we have a massive deficit, (one half being the fact that we have too many public servants on too high a salary and the other half being the fact that in order to pay for this, we are taxing the absolute and utter sh*t out of everything in the private sector, which is causing massive job losses...

So the massive transfer of funds from the exchequer to pay back the debts of speculators in the financial services industry (part of the private sector last time I checked) has nothing to do with our deficit?

AhSureTisGrand · 09-11-2011 06:46PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Economic conditions worsen a little in a country, the "markets" decide that its going to get much worse there, and as a result, it DOES get much worse there.

And when people lose confidence in a Ponzi scheme, the Ponzi scheme collapses. When a country needs to borrow more and more money to fill the hole in its finances then "the market" is quite right to be sceptical. If the collective of the market was genuinely wrong then the country wouldn't be too badly affected (it also presents a good opportunity for someone who knows better — contact your stockbroker if you think Italian bonds are undervalued)

I'd be willing to put money on it* that if the markets decided that italy had the money to repay its debts and they wont need bailing out, berlusconi would still be PM and thered be no trouble.

And Italian debt would pile up until the bondholders realised they didn't have a hope in hell of getting their money back. But since they're already at that stage, deciding that Italy is somehow a wise investment just doesn't make sense.

Also, as you said, the markets brought down the italian government, do you not think thats a little too much power in the hands of pension brokers and bankers(and whoever else deals in govt bonds, i aint an economist!) ? Granted they all have to work in unison, but it looks like that happens quite often.

These people can't just decide to bring a government down. If a group of people stopped buying a country's bonds for no good reason, the yield on these bonds would shoot up, and I would say, "Great! Easy money!" I'd tell my stockbroker, (I would find myself a stockbroker) "Buy me some bonds, baby!" So would countless other people if the usual suspects suddenly became retarded.

Not to mention that they only have as much power as you do once they stop buying bonds

Simtech · 09-11-2011 06:48PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is the kind of belligerance that we have all come to appreciate from PS workers like yourself.

There needs to be an economic model pursued that works. For this to happen, we need a certain amount of people providing public services, that can do the job competently, and they need to be paid a fair salary for what they do.

There also needs to be a functioning private sector that creates jobs ina steady and consistent manner, instead of causing businesses to close one month after the other.

There should never be a situation allowed to emerge again where we have a public sector that is protected and cossetted from any and all of the normal rules of staff retention that are understood to operate everywhere else in the economic world apart from public sector workplaces.

This is two halves of the reason why we have a massive deficit, (one half being the fact that we have too many public servants on too high a salary and the other half being the fact that in order to pay for this, we are taxing the absolute and utter sh*t out of everything in the private sector, which is causing massive job losses...

"Belligerence" he says after starting his reply with "Bollox" and continuing in a similar vein.

I won't argue with ya mate, there's no point. Feel free to have the last word if it makes ya feel better. :rolleyes:

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 06:51PM

Also, HellFire you are saying that we should stop borrowing to pay public sector wages and should run them off their profits.

Let's apply the same to a private sector business. Try and start up a private sector business and pay for stock , premises and wages without using credit of some kind or another. Go on.

mike65 · 09-11-2011 07:01PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You do realise it was the private sector who were the main drivers of our false economic boom?

This is just wrong, the fake Tiger period was almost entirely the work of the ECB and the Irish government. One created foolishly low interest rates for all when no one really needed them and the other went mad with public spending (pensions, baby bonus etc), tax cutting (as if the top rate needed to be cut to 40%), and the lunatic tax breaks for developers.

http://www.global-rates.com/interest-rates/central-banks/european-central-bank/ecb-interest-rate.aspx

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/inflation-cpi

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 07:07PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You do realise it was the private sector who were the main drivers of our false economic boom?

It's private sector investors and bond holders were paying back as a large part of our debts as well. Probably not a great idea to hold the up as shiny bastions of economic genius.

Wrong. The false economic boom was create as a result of a bubble caused by government policies.

In true capitalism, if something isnt profitable, it fails.

We had(and still do) a different form of capatilism where certain parts of the market are helped by subsidies, thus making it appear profitable to a certain few (namely, the people profiteering from it), but once those subsidies are taken away, BOOM! It falls over.

What happened in the irish case is that credit was cheap, as a result of goverment policies (bad regulation), which allowed developers to build, and people to buy the buildings. Once the credit became un-cheap....... BOOM!

Even now it happens in ireland, for example the govt scrappage scheme for old cars. That created a bubble where car dealers were selling cars for cheaper than they actually should be allowed, and making profit. Once the govt pulled the plug on the scrappage scheme, are they still selling anywhere near as many cars? Dont think so...

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 07:09PM

So the private sector needs constant propping up by the government to function is a sustainable manner?

Hardly a shining endorsement.

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 07:12PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So the private sector needs constant propping up by the government to function is a sustainable manner?

Hardly a shining endorsement.

No it doesnt. if there was NO propping up, then capitilism would shine, and profitable business would emerge. We just need a very strict rule on that, no propping!

If capitilism is what we actually want in this country is another question too broad for this already very broad thread!

pragmatic1 · 09-11-2011 07:14PM

Anyone heard the rumors that they've started printing punts again? Game over man.

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 07:15PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Anyone heard the rumors that they've started printing punts again? Game over man.

Yeah heard that alright. Apparantly a few months ago. Theres a warehouse full of em somewhere around the country.

Thats what i heard of course...

mike65 · 09-11-2011 07:17PM

Urban myth, the sort of thing taxi drivers claim to know about.

pragmatic1 · 09-11-2011 07:22PM

mike65 wrote: »

Urban myth, the sort of thing taxi drivers claim to know about.

Dont know. It was a fairly senior civil servant that told me. I know if I was in the government I'd have a plan b because it isnt looking too good.

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 07:22PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Anyone heard the rumors that they've started printing punts again? Game over man.

Did you hear Radiohead will be having a concert at Occupy Dame St?

True story bro.

Galtee · 09-11-2011 07:23PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Wrong. The false economic boom was create as a result of a bubble caused by government policies.

In true capitalism, if something isnt profitable, it fails.

We had(and still do) a different form of capatilism where certain parts of the market are helped by subsidies, thus making it appear profitable to a certain few (namely, the people profiteering from it), but once those subsidies are taken away, BOOM! It falls over.

What happened in the irish case is that credit was cheap, as a result of goverment policies (bad regulation), which allowed developers to build, and people to buy the buildings. Once the credit became un-cheap....... BOOM!

Even now it happens in ireland, for example the govt scrappage scheme for old cars. That created a bubble where car dealers were selling cars for cheaper than they actually should be allowed, and making profit. Once the govt pulled the plug on the scrappage scheme, are they still selling anywhere near as many cars? Dont think so...

So the banks weren't the cause of it then?

44leto · 09-11-2011 07:36PM

Galtee wrote: »

So the banks weren't the cause of it then?

Not really, the world had a glut of savers as in China and India so cheap and easy credit was a big factor coupled to peoples desire for assets rather then goods which forced a bubble in real estate all over the world. Bankers just did what bankers do, make money, that is their job.

But its the regulators who job it is to protect us from stupid banking practices, they didn't, because in most places there were policies of banking deregulation.

So it was governments that caused it and of course the voters desire for cheap available credit for all.

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 08:23PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Also, HellFire you are saying that we should stop borrowing to pay public sector wages and should run them off their profits.

Let's apply the same to a private sector business. Try and start up a private sector business and pay for stock , premises and wages without using credit of some kind or another. Go on.

That's actually how I started up my business. Are you saying that only people who come from wealth as in people who have wealth in the family, should have the opportunity to start up new businesse??? Clearly there are some folks from the cossetted PS la la land of economics who feel great commenting on here and sneering at people, but who have probably never taken a business risk in their entire lives with their own money.

All people like myself are asking for is a bit of value and fairness. There is no reason on this earth why people who enjoy job security for life are compensated more highly than their colleagues in the private sector who enjoy no such security. There is no reason on this earth why anyone should think that there is a thing called a job for life anymore.

All of these rediculous things are costing us money that we don't have and are dragging the country down. Leaving people in public sector jobs on rediculous money, just because the alternative is to throw them on the dole because we cannot create jobs, this is a completely disfunctional way of looking at the problem.

Yes we need to create jobs, for the 500K people who are already on the dole and ALSO for the other 50,000 odd thousand who are hunkered down in the public sector for the long haul, giving us all the two fingers because they can't be let go from their positions.

All I'm saying is that we will be a long time doing it for as long as we are using the money we have today, to bail out unsecured arséholes who took a bad punt on Anglo 7 years ago and for as long as we are tolerating a situation where we still have the best paid public sector workers in the developed world.

The_Thing · 09-11-2011 09:43PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

That's actually how I started up my business. Are you saying that only people who come from wealth as in people who have wealth in the family, should have the opportunity to start up new businesse??? Clearly there are some folks from the cossetted PS la la land of economics who feel great commenting on here and sneering at people, but who have probably never taken a business risk in their entire lives with their own money.

All people like myself are asking for is a bit of value and fairness. There is no reason on this earth why people who enjoy job security for life are compensated more highly than their colleagues in the private sector who enjoy no such security. There is no reason on this earth why anyone should think that there is a thing called a job for life anymore.

All of these rediculous things are costing us money that we don't have and are dragging the country down. Leaving people in public sector jobs on rediculous money, just because the alternative is to throw them on the dole because we cannot create jobs, this is a completely disfunctional way of looking at the problem.

Yes we need to create jobs, for the 500K people who are already on the dole and ALSO for the other 50,000 odd thousand who are hunkered down in the public sector for the long haul, giving us all the two fingers because they can't be let go from their positions.

All I'm saying is that we will be a long time doing it for as long as we are using the money we have today, to bail out unsecured arséholes who took a bad punt on Anglo 7 years ago and for as long as we are tolerating a situation where we still have the best paid public sector workers in the developed world.

For someone who claims to be running a business you spend a lot of time on the Irish Economy section of boards.ie rehashing the same old story over and over with the rest of the armchair economists.

\/

Dyr · 10-11-2011 11:36AM

''it is time for a breakthrough to a new Europe." Merkel

There we go lads, the steel is finally showing through the velvet. Ze united states du europe program has just been upped from "softly softly" to "now or never".

10-11-2011 12:02PM

The choices are.
Return to the Punt,
Stay en the Deutch Euro zone.
Rejoin the Sterling zone.

Pompey Magnus · 10-11-2011 12:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The choices are.
Return to the Punt,
Stay en the Deutch Euro zone.
Rejoin the Sterling zone.

So basically three crappy options and we get to choose the least worst? Sweet.

10-11-2011 12:44PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

So basically three crappy options and we get to choose the least worst? Sweet.

Is there a fourth option?

Edit: join another currency like the Icelandic Krone or something???

Snakeblood · 10-11-2011 12:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a fourth option?

Could try this?

Italy On The Edge Of Bailout

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