Italy On The Edge Of Bailout

Snakeblood · 09-11-2011 04:04PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Berlusconi has already said he's stepping down after they pass some austerity bill, it's the tradeoff he gets for making the govt pass it
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1109/breaking1.html

doesn't seem to have helped though

he's not gone yet. What they should do is have a national unity government, get rid of him and have all politicians agree on a plan. That way, after the election, whenever that is, the markets know that whatever the plan is, everyone has agreed to enact it so there's no backsliding unless things turn greek.

jonnyfingers · 09-11-2011 04:07PM

Apparently the only two countries to have worse economic growth than Italy over the last few years are Haiti and Zimbabwe.

I'm amazed by that.

AhSureTisGrand · 09-11-2011 04:08PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Nah, the crisis has worsened the crisis.

Berlusconi was/is a scapegoat. Just like the leaders in some of the other bailed out countries. Cowen, Popendreau, now berlusconi.

The problem here is the markets (that thing which we all are part of and no one is part of all at the same time) have too much power. End of. They can single handedly bring down a democratically elected government, in any country they wish.

If you're to blame "the markets", then you have to blame yourself also for not buying any Italian bonds and thus bringing down their government

Galtee · 09-11-2011 04:09PM

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Apparently the only two countries to have worse economic growth than Italy over the last few years are Haiti and Zimbabwe.

I'm amazed by that.

Greece weren't far behind over the last 30 years. I'm amazed by the fact that all of a sudden it's a massive problem. Seems to me like there's a lot of people making a lot of money off the markets going up and down like a whores knickers.

09-11-2011 04:35PM

[tinfoilhat]
I think that there have been several secret meetings between Euro bankers & finance ministers and they have decided that they will kill the €uro!

It will start with a freeze on international transfers of money just before Christmas and between Christmas and New year all the (larger value) bank notes will be overstamped with the symbol of the replacement currency IR£ for example.
decide to
On the 1st of January these notes will start to appear and exchange rates will start to float between countries.
[/tinfoilhat]

A bit far fetched, but nothing would surprise me now!

Dyr · 09-11-2011 04:50PM

Galtee wrote: »

Greece weren't far behind over the last 30 years. I'm amazed by the fact that all of a sudden it's a massive problem. Seems to me like there's a lot of people making a lot of money off the markets going up and down like a whores knickers.

It was'nt really a problem till all these economies were shoe horned into a single currency...

Galtee · 09-11-2011 04:56PM

Bambi wrote: »

It was'nt really a problem till all these economies were shoe horned into a single currency...

I don't understand what difference that makes.

Pataman · 09-11-2011 04:56PM

Lads you are all wrong. I was talking to a "Freeman" yesterday and aparently they are starting to print our own currency on the 21st of January.

Galtee · 09-11-2011 04:59PM

Pataman wrote: »

Lads you are all wrong. I was talking to a "Freeman" yesterday and aparently they are starting to print our own currency on the 21st of January.

So in next months budget they're going to give us back money?

Mazeire · 09-11-2011 04:59PM

Pataman wrote: »

Lads you are all wrong. I was talking to a "Freeman" yesterday and aparently they are starting to print our own currency on the 21st of January.

What? Who are "they"?

Pataman · 09-11-2011 05:01PM

A load of nutters!! http://freemanireland.ning.com/

09-11-2011 05:26PM

the domino effect!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnqP8lBUwgs

ilovesleep · 09-11-2011 05:30PM

Galtee wrote: »

Greece weren't far behind over the last 30 years. I'm amazed by the fact that all of a sudden it's a massive problem. Seems to me like there's a lot of people making a lot of money off the markets going up and down like a whores knickers.

Are those my dirty, kinky knickers you are talking about?

Galtee · 09-11-2011 05:38PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

Are those my dirty, kinky knickers you are talking about?

You want em back? You can have them, to be honest they don't really fit me anymore since the ol middle age spread set in. Before I didn't mind but now it's just embarrassing.

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 05:38PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

If you're to blame "the markets", then you have to blame yourself also for not buying any Italian bonds and thus bringing down their government

Hence why i said we're all part of the markets, and yet not part of them at the same time.

Its like the video above, a domino effect.

Economic conditions worsen a little in a country, the "markets" decide that its going to get much worse there, and as a result, it DOES get much worse there.

I'd be willing to put money on it* that if the markets decided that italy had the money to repay its debts and they wont need bailing out, berlusconi would still be PM and thered be no trouble.

Also, as you said, the markets brought down the italian government, do you not think thats a little too much power in the hands of pension brokers and bankers(and whoever else
deals in govt bonds, i aint an economist!) ? Granted they all have to work in unison, but it looks like that happens quite often.

* i wouldnt really be willing to put money on it.

44leto · 09-11-2011 05:40PM

Italy the third biggest economy in Europe the 8th biggest in the world, there is not much the IMF/ECB can do about this. Its as if democracy and our current form of capitalism is failing along with the mighty west.

We are in unknown territory and its getting scarier.

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 05:42PM

44leto wrote: »

Italy the third biggest economy in Europe the 8th biggest in the world, there is not much the IMF/ECB can do about this. Its as if democracy and our current form of capitalism is failing along with the mighty west.

We are in unknown territory and its getting scarier.

Ah, it'll be grand

Mazeire · 09-11-2011 05:44PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Ah, it'll be grand

You know something, It won't. Italy will curl it's toes up before Christmas and I would imagine Portugal and Spain will follow soon after.

44leto · 09-11-2011 05:48PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Ah, it'll be grand

No it most certainly wont, there is actually a chance of seeing some of us plum westerners starving on the street, just like in the 1929 depression, if this goes as bad as some think it may, it will be worse then the 1929 depression.

wobbles-grogan · 09-11-2011 05:51PM

44leto wrote: »

No it most certainly wont, there is actually a chance of seeing some of us plum westerners starving on the street, just like in the 1929 depression, if this goes as bad as some think it may, it will be worse then the 1929 depression.

T'will all be all right.

We'll have war in the middle east soon. Iran, isreal, syria, russia, etc... As a result, we'll all learn to live from the land again. None of these onions from spain, or potatoes from isreal, or McDonalds. Just good ol spuds from the garden! We'll all stop being fat, stop being reliant on "new stuff", and just...be happy.

See, even the worst of situations can be positive!

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 05:52PM

44leto wrote: »

Italy the third biggest economy in Europe the 8th biggest in the world, there is not much the IMF/ECB can do about this. Its as if democracy and our current form of capitalism is failing along with the mighty west.

We are in unknown territory and its getting scarier.

Bailing out failed banking institutions that failed because of their own rampant greed, that isn't capitalism, it's corporate welfare which is the opposite of capitalism.

Mazeire · 09-11-2011 05:56PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

T'will all be all right.

We'll have war in the middle east soon. Iran, isreal, syria, russia, etc... As a result, we'll all learn to live from the land again. None of these onions from spain, or potatoes from isreal, or McDonalds. Just good ol spuds from the garden! We'll all stop being fat, stop being reliant on "new stuff", and just...be happy.

See, even the worst of situations can be positive!

Great. Except my landlord doesn't take rent payment in the form of organic produce. Neither do the ESB.

44leto · 09-11-2011 05:57PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Bailing out failed banking institutions that failed because of their own rampant greed, that isn't capitalism, it's corporate welfare which is the opposite of capitalism.

This isn't bailing out banks, its bailing out a sovereign state who hasn't the money to pay for public services or service their loans to pay for public services.

Most banks are already back in profit just ours aren't.

Simtech · 09-11-2011 06:00PM

Banks in Europe are now adjusting their internal risk-weighting models to make it seem as if they have more money than they really do, it would seem it's all based on pretend money. It's beginning to get a little worrying.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-09/financial-alchemy-undercuts-capital-regime-as-european-banks-redefine-risk.html

Galtee · 09-11-2011 06:00PM

44leto wrote: »

This isn't bailing out banks, its bailing out a sovereign state who hasn't the money to pay for public services or service their loans to pay for public services.

Most banks are already back in profit just ours aren't.

Huh? Even when Ireland was booming the government were borrowing money.

44leto · 09-11-2011 06:01PM

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

T'will all be all right.

We'll have war in the middle east soon. Iran, isreal, syria, russia, etc... As a result, we'll all learn to live from the land again. None of these onions from spain, or potatoes from isreal, or McDonalds. Just good ol spuds from the garden! We'll all stop being fat, stop being reliant on "new stuff", and just...be happy.

See, even the worst of situations can be positive!

A nice romantic view of it, but we would want to start now and hope it doesn't go all Mad Max or set the conditions for extremism to rise.

44leto · 09-11-2011 06:04PM

Galtee wrote: »

Huh? Even when Ireland was booming the government were borrowing money.

Yes and they shouldn't have but it was Fine Fukcen Fail, but that was OK, at that time there was no chance of Ireland or any western economy failing to repay those loans. There is now.

HellFireClub · 09-11-2011 06:06PM

44leto wrote: »

This isn't bailing out banks, its bailing out a sovereign state who hasn't the money to pay for public services or service their loans to pay for public services.

Most banks are already back in profit just ours aren't.

It's the same thing, fúcking rampant greed, except that instead of it being a businessperson or a fund manager or a bank lending/relationship manager behind the greed, it's a PS union or whatever, holding a gun to the head of a country to extract higher wages than the wages that can be afforded.

What we should bring the whole thing back to, is no borrowing to run a country for current expenditure. Borrow for capital projects like building roads, schools, but no borrowing to pay the teachers or the police or the army. It should be a case of, "look, there is what we can pay that salary at the moment, if you don't like it, then f*ck off and take your chances in the private sector".

mickydoomsux · 09-11-2011 06:12PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

What we should bring the whole thing back to, is no borrowing to run a country for current expenditure. Borrow for capital projects like building roads, schools, but no borrowing to pay the teachers or the police or the army. It should be a case of, "look, there is what we can pay that salary at the moment, if you don't like it, then f*ck off and take your chances in the private sector".

Idiotic. That would destroy the entire economy.

The money earned in the public sector goes towards buying goods and services in the private and vice versa. One can't survive with the other.

Damage one and you damage the other.

Simtech · 09-11-2011 06:16PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

It's the same thing, fúcking rampant greed, except that instead of it being a businessperson or a fund manager or a bank lending/relationship manager behind the greed, it's a PS union or whatever, holding a gun to the head of a country to extract higher wages than the wages that can be afforded.

What we should bring the whole thing back to, is no borrowing to run a country for current expenditure. Borrow for capital projects like building roads, schools, but no borrowing to pay the teachers or the police or the army. It should be a case of, "look, there is what we can pay that salary at the moment, if you don't like it, then f*ck off and take your chances in the private sector".

You do understand that all that public sector wage money eventually gets spent in the private sector don't you. Take all that money out of an economy and what do you really think would happen then?

Italy On The Edge Of Bailout

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