Israeli navy boards irish Gaza-bound boats

Dudess · 05-11-2011 04:28PM

Winty wrote: »

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Still obsessing I see, I'll ask you the question again then.

Please read the WHOLE tread not just the IRA bits.

The question was asked

Why is a certain section of Irish society so obsessed with Palestine and Israel,

IMO its beacuse they are PRO IRA supporters of Palestine.

What's opinion got to do with it? They either are or they aren't - and I'm not pro IRA yet I'm supportive of the Palestinian cause. Jeez, I've heard it all now...
Einhard, that generalisation is the reality. Oh and the other one: I wholeheartedly endorse Israel's bully tactics because I love freedom. It's a joke.
Give me a decent argument so in favour of Israel using disproportionate force. Why are israeli lives more valuable than palestinian ones? And to cover all bases: yea they have a right to defend themselves, but why do they go overboard? Why blast an entire settlement of civilians? To defend that is morally questionable. And yes, Hamas are bastards too, and no, I'm not anti Semitic.

Siuin · 05-11-2011 04:28PM

RussellTuring wrote: »

Even if some people who support Republican causes also support the Palestinians, this is irrelevant: being a Republican is not a necessary condition for sympathising with the Palestinians, and I tell you this as one of the latter but not the former.

Agreed, and I would also like to add that it's difficult to blame any Republican who would sympathise with the Palestinians given the huge amount of support the Unionists give to the Israel camp. The vast number of Irish Zionists I know are more patriotic to the Queen than the Irish nation and the likes of David Trimble are constant speakers at Zionist events.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 04:30PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Come off what? you have stated that it is a FACT that the blockade is legal. Have you anything to back up that assertion other than the said report, after all you said that the UN does not decide on issues of legality. There are numerous UN experts that have claimed that the blockade is illegal.

I didn't state that the UN doesn't decide on matters of international law- I stated that the UN doesn't need to specifically declare an action legal in order for it do be so. There's a pretty major difference there. The UN commissioned a report under its own auspices, and then accepted the finds of that report. What on earth is the point of international law if people are just going to treat it like some subjective opinion?

Einhard · 05-11-2011 04:34PM

Siuin wrote: »

Having met settlers in person, I can most definitely tell you that they do. They feel that Europe is trying to 'massacre the state just as they did the Jewish nation' etc etc- it's a very commonly occurring theme. Israeli culture and identity places a huge amount of its ideology on the happenings of the Holocaust, and anti-Semitism is exploited repeatedly when it is quite literally just a criticism of Israel. When I expressed my opposition to circumcision I was told that I was an anti-Semite! Ridiculous.

And all Israelis are settlers?

Siuin · 05-11-2011 04:37PM

Einhard wrote: »

And all Israelis are settlers?

Obviously not, but they are part of the Israeli people and by no means are the only ones to express such opinions- the Holocaust is exploited time and time again in Israeli politics to garner sympathy and 'excuse' their actions

nacho libre · 05-11-2011 04:38PM

Einhard wrote: »

. What on earth is the point of international law if people are just going to treat it like some subjective opinion?

This happens all the time when it's politically expedient to do so. It isn't exclusive to people who support palestinians, if that's what you're trying to imply.

R P McMurphy · 05-11-2011 04:43PM

Einhard wrote: »

I didn't state that the UN doesn't decide on matters of international law- I stated that the UN doesn't need to specifically declare an action legal in order for it do be so. There's a pretty major difference there. The UN commissioned a report under its own auspices, and then accepted the finds of that report. What on earth is the point of international law if people are just going to treat it like some subjective opinion?

The blockade itself is very questionable under international law. You earlier claimed that the legality of the blockade is beyond question and that to claim otherwise is disingenuous. This is clearly not the case. The issue of legality under international law however is not so clear cut with many experts claiming it to be illegal.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 04:54PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The blockade itself is very questionable under international law. You earlier claimed that the legality of the blockade is beyond question and that to claim otherwise is disingenuous. This is clearly not the case. The issue of legality under international law however is not so clear cut with many experts claiming it to be illegal.

OK, this is getting ridiculous. A UN sanctioned report stated that the blockade was legal. That might not suit your own particular position on the matter, but that's irrelevant. It's amusing how the UN is so strenuously invoked in these matters when its dictates accord with an opinion, and so casually dismissed when they don't. I presume that, to be consistent, you aren't of the opinion that the US war in Iraq was illegal simply because it hadn't gained UN sanction? Or that Israel has breached international law as dictated by the UN in other matters? I mean, how can breaching resolutions be illegal under international law if the UN itself has no place in creating or legitimising such law.

marcsignal · 05-11-2011 04:56PM

Overheal wrote: »

Sooooo no need to.go there. The blockade...

Agreed.

I was born 1 week before the june 67 war, and that shit has been going on out there, unchanged, ever since. If they haven't been able to solve it in 44 years, by doing what they're doing, then it's time for those that hold the power, to have the intellectual honesty to ask themselves the difficult questions.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 04:56PM

Dudess wrote: »

What's opinion got to do with it? They either are or they aren't - and I'm not pro IRA yet I'm supportive of the Palestinian cause. Jeez, I've heard it all now...
Einhard, that generalisation is the reality. Oh and the other one: I wholeheartedly endorse Israel's bully tactics because I love freedom. It's a joke.
Give me a decent argument so in favour of Israel using disproportionate force. Why are israeli lives more valuable than palestinian ones? And to cover all bases: yea they have a right to defend themselves, but why do they go overboard? Why blast an entire settlement of civilians? To defend that is morally questionable. And yes, Hamas are bastards too, and no, I'm not anti Semitic.

You label everyone who defends Israel in certain instances in one extreme category, make up spurious views that I don't share , and then expect me to defend them?

Mike 1972 · 05-11-2011 05:24PM

Siuin wrote: »

given the huge amount of support the some Unionists give to the Israel camp. .

FYP

c_man · 05-11-2011 05:27PM

mongoman wrote: »

Then you mightn't want to know how many times Israel ignored and flagrantly breached countless UN resolutions. Even Saddam didn't get close.

Never said anything to the contrary

Dudess · 05-11-2011 05:29PM

Einhard wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

What's opinion got to do with it? They either are or they aren't - and I'm not pro IRA yet I'm supportive of the Palestinian cause. Jeez, I've heard it all now...
Einhard, that generalisation is the reality. Oh and the other one: I wholeheartedly endorse Israel's bully tactics because I love freedom. It's a joke.
Give me a decent argument so in favour of Israel using disproportionate force. Why are israeli lives more valuable than palestinian ones? And to cover all bases: yea they have a right to defend themselves, but why do they go overboard? Why blast an entire settlement of civilians? To defend that is morally questionable. And yes, Hamas are bastards too, and no, I'm not anti Semitic.

You label everyone who defends Israel in certain instances in one extreme category, make up spurious views that I don't share , and then expect me to defend them?

No, I asked for a good argument in favour of Israel using disproportionate force - not defending itself, but going way overboard.

Dudess · 05-11-2011 05:32PM

Why do some hardcore loyalists feverishly back Israel I wonder? Hmmm, so hard to figure out...

And yet, some of them are connected to far-right skinheads. You can always rely on extreme nutters for equal doses of idiocy and inconsistency.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 05:32PM

Dudess wrote: »

No, I asked for a good argument in favour of Israel using disproportionate force - not defending itself, but going way overboard.

The term "disproportionate force" is itself loaded. Something which is disproportionate cannot be defended. It is subjective, and therefore can't be discussed in the abstract. You might think an action is disproportionate, another might view it as entirely reasonable.

Mike 1972 · 05-11-2011 05:40PM

Dudess wrote: »

Why do some hardcore loyalists feverishly back Israel I wonder? Hmmm, so hard to figure out...

And yet, some of them are connected to far-right skinheads. You can always rely on extreme nutters for equal doses of idiocy and inconsistency.

On the other hand there is a school of thought that hardcore zionism and fascism are effectively opposite sides of the same coin and therfore pehaps its not quite as inconsistent as it first appears.

What IS more inconsistent though is the attachment many far-right types have (particularly around this time of year) in the UK to poppies and war commemerations given what one of the wars being commemerated was against.........

LondonIrish90 · 05-11-2011 05:44PM

Einhard wrote: »

The term "disproportionate force" is itself loaded. Something which is disproportionate cannot be defended. It is subjective, and therefore can't be discussed in the abstract. You might think an action is disproportionate, another might view it as entirely reasonable.

No use of force is ever logically unreasonable. Force can either be justified or not so really. If force is legal and necessary, then it is logical to use the maximum available force in order to ensure you come out of any little conflict with victory. This is a view that has been held since the beginning of humanity.

Is an act like this legal, and are the aims of the use of force justified?

Nodin · 05-11-2011 05:47PM

Mark27 wrote: »

Why does nobody ever mention that every school, pupil and equipment in Palestine is completly funded by Israel?

.....

Because they aren't, I'd imagine.

Dudess · 05-11-2011 05:47PM

Skirt around if you will, but 10 dead Israelis therefore = 100 dead Palestinians? Seems disproportionate to me.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 05:49PM

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

No use of force is ever logically unreasonable. Force can either be justified or not so really. If force is legal and necessary, then it is logical to use the maximum available force in order to ensure you come out of any little conflict with victory.

I think you're wrong on several counts there. First, using the maximum amount of force to guarantee victory may not be logical, in that the repercussions may be extensive and negative. Secondly, even if it were logical, does not make it moral.

dlofnep · 05-11-2011 05:49PM

Dudess wrote: »

Why do some hardcore loyalists feverishly back Israel I wonder? Hmmm, so hard to figure out...

And yet, some of them are connected to far-right skinheads. You can always rely on extreme nutters for equal doses of idiocy and inconsistency.

Nazi Salutes and the Israeli flag, all in one setting: http://i42.tinypic.com/df9cau.jpg

Confusion in the ranks between hating Jews, and loving Israel.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 05:50PM

Dudess wrote: »

Skirt around if you will, but 10 dead Israelis therefore = 100 dead Palestinians? Seems disproportionate to me.

I'm not skirting around anything. As I said, something which is disproportionate cannot be justified. That's pretty obvious. The question is what is disproportionate force, and whether an action can be termed as such.

Dudess · 05-11-2011 05:52PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Why do some hardcore loyalists feverishly back Israel I wonder? Hmmm, so hard to figure out...

And yet, some of them are connected to far-right skinheads. You can always rely on extreme nutters for equal doses of idiocy and inconsistency.

Nazi Salutes and the Israeli flag, all in one setting: http://i42.tinypic.com/df9cau.jpg

Confusion in the ranks between hating Jews, and loving Israel.

****ing lol.

tiger55 · 05-11-2011 05:53PM

Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem's Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks, but sometimes they strike back. Last week the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court quashed the indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who had punched the man who spat at him.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/ultra-orthodox-spitting-attacks-on-old-city-clergymen-becoming-daily-1.393669

Killer Pigeon · 05-11-2011 05:55PM

Should Ireland declare war on a nuclear armed nation who spend billions on their military each year?

Einhard · 05-11-2011 05:58PM

tiger55 wrote: »

Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem's Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks, but sometimes they strike back. Last week the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court quashed the indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who had punched the man who spat at him.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/ultra-orthodox-spitting-attacks-on-old-city-clergymen-becoming-daily-1.393669

Not sure what that has to do with the thread, unless you just want a bit of Israeli bashing.

dlofnep · 05-11-2011 06:01PM

Einhard wrote: »

Not sure what that has to do with the thread, unless you just want a bit of Israeli bashing.

Neither did the IRA posts, but I didn't see you interjecting then.

Einhard · 05-11-2011 06:04PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Neither did the IRA posts, but I didn't see you interjecting then.

Well, they actually did have something to do with the thread, in that the poster was trying to label as supporters of terrorism people who support the Palestinian cause. Completely idiotic of course, but still relevant to the thread title.

dlofnep · 05-11-2011 06:08PM

Einhard wrote: »

Well, they actually did have something to do with the thread, in that the poster was trying to label as supporters of terrorism people who support the Palestinian cause. Completely idiotic of course, but still relevant to the thread title.

How can something completely idiotic be relevant to the thread?

ejmaztec · 05-11-2011 06:09PM

Not all Israelis toe the anti-Palestinian line, so I'd like to know what the resident anti-Palestinian posters on here think of them.

The Palestinians have been driven to extremes since they were trampled underfoot, evicted from their homes, and ignored since the foundation of the Israeli state.

It's hardly surprising that NI nationalists would support the palestinians, because they were also treated as second class citizens, and they too had to take it to extremes to get anywhere.

Israeli navy boards irish Gaza-bound boats

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