British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Rubecula · 01-11-2011 10:42am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

My own feelings on this (I am British by the way so you can see where I am coming from)

There have been very many brave people who died and have been ignored. The Poppy is a way of remembering them. Ireland does not need the poppy, but it should in my own opinion make some sort of statement to remember the brave souls it has lost, in whatever field of endeavour, not necessarily the wars.

I wear my poppy with a certain pride when remembrance day comes around. I remember and feel sorrow for the loss and happy that I live in relative safety because of people who made that ultimate sacrifice.

By the way I said at the start I am British, which is very true. My family comes from the Dublin area, and my late grandfather fought in the Royal Irish Rifles in WW1. My thinking may be coloured a bit by the fact I am ex forces myself.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 10:52am

getz wrote: »

thats OK i can more than most know how passionate people can get in their beliefs, forget the UK,in the case of ireland,30,000 irish families lost loved ones during WW1,and in the second world war over 10,000 irish families,some lads went into it for adventure,or a belief that they were saving the world,or even for economic reasons,even so they are dead,the poppy is in memory of those lads,and anything raised in ireland is for them, dont donate for a poppy is you feel that bad about it,thats up to you,but at the same time if some old granny wants to remember a loved /husband brother ect on a certain day,cannot you respect that ?

Of course I can respect that mate, that's why my first words on this matter were:

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If you want to wear a poppy then wear it, it should be up to individuals to do as they please.

If the poppy was merely about those poor unfortunates that died in WW1 and WW2 then we wouldn't be having this debate.

The poppy signifies far more than that though and includes ex-British Army personnel that have murdered and plundered their way through foreign countries around the globs, including Ireland.

The British Government should be looking after their ex-servicemen properly, it is a sad indictment that they're not and that these men and women who believed that they were giving their all for their country now have to resort to begging.

Gingko · 01-11-2011 10:55am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Says the man who names himself after a terrorist.

Bobby Sands a "terrorist"? Oh really? He was very much loved in his community and was also a poet and a singer song writer. A creative man by all accounts in revolutionary times in the north. He was a "terrorist" and died fighting against British state "terrorism".

It's laughable that some of the key states in the world who coined the phrase "terrorism" are the same ones with the most shameful records and horrifying present foreign policies including the U.S. and Israel. Let's just call the natives "terrorists" guys so as to turn all public opinion against them!

tfitzgerald · 01-11-2011 11:02am

No (I'm Irish)

If people who fought in wars want to wear a poppy then I think they are entitled to .I also think the British army soldiers are being treated very bad at the moment . The government sacking a lot of them when they return from active duty in afganastan after see some of their comrades killed a maimed and then to be made redundant on their return . Cameron should be shot he's doing more damage to the British army than the IRA ever did.

getz · 01-11-2011 11:15am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Of course I can respect that mate, that's why my first words on this matter were:

If the poppy was merely about those poor unfortunates that died in WW1 and WW2 then we wouldn't be having this debate.

The poppy signifies far more than that though and includes ex-British Army personnel that have murdered and plundered their way through foreign countries around the globs, including Ireland.

The British Government should be looking after their ex-servicemen properly, it is a sad indictment that they're not and that these men and women who believed that they were giving their all for their country now have to resort to begging.

we are talking about the poppy in ireland and irish dead, their relatives [in ireland]are not reduced to begging,in fact most direct relatives will mostly be dead, a few old soldiers will still be around in the british legion remembering their friends, many a wreath will be laid on the cenotaphs[like the one that was bombed by the IRA in northern ireland,during a remembrance service,killing old men and a irish senators daughter] end of the day many a young irishman died to keep europe free,

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 11:40am

Rubecula wrote: »

My own feelings on this (I am British by the way so you can see where I am coming from)

There have been very many brave people who died and have been ignored. The Poppy is a way of remembering them. Ireland does not need the poppy, but it should in my own opinion make some sort of statement to remember the brave souls it has lost, in whatever field of endeavour, not necessarily the wars.

I wear my poppy with a certain pride when remembrance day comes around. I remember and feel sorrow for the loss and happy that I live in relative safety because of people who made that ultimate sacrifice.

By the way I said at the start I am British, which is very true. My family comes from the Dublin area, and my late grandfather fought in the Royal Irish Rifles in WW1. My thinking may be coloured a bit by the fact I am ex forces myself.

we have the lily for our patriot dead

ejmaztec · 01-11-2011 11:41am

Gingko wrote: »

Bobby Sands a "terrorist"? Oh really? He was very much loved in his community and was also a poet and a singer song writer. A creative man by all accounts in revolutionary times in the north. He was a "terrorist" and died fighting against British state "terrorism".

It's laughable that some of the key states in the world who coined the phrase "terrorism" are the same ones with the most shameful records and horrifying present foreign policies including the U.S. and Israel. Let's just call the natives "terrorists" guys so as to turn all public opinion against them!

Why was he imprisoned?

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 11:49am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Why was he imprisoned?

For breaking the "laws" of an oppressive foreign invader (who have no right to jurisdiction on this island) and fighting for justice and equality for all on this island.

"Let our revenge be the laughter of our children."

Rubecula · 01-11-2011 11:50am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

we have the lily for our patriot dead

My sincerest apologies as I didn't realise that.

LordSutch · 01-11-2011 11:52am

No (I'm Irish)

Rubecula wrote: »

My own feelings on this (I am British by the way so you can see where I am coming from)

There have been very many brave people who died and have been ignored. The Poppy is a way of remembering them. Ireland does not need the poppy, but it should in my own opinion make some sort of statement to remember the brave souls it has lost, in whatever field of endeavour, not necessarily the wars.

I wear my poppy with a certain pride when remembrance day comes around. I remember and feel sorrow for the loss and happy that I live in relative safety because of people who made that ultimate sacrifice.

By the way I said at the start I am British, which is very true. My family comes from the Dublin area, and my late grandfather fought in the Royal Irish Rifles in WW1. My thinking may be coloured a bit by the fact I am ex forces myself.

Well I am not ex forces, but I am Irish, and I contribute to the poppy appeal fund in Dublin every year, and in return I wear a poppy every day on the streets of Dublin leading up to Remembrance Sunday (which may, or may not fall on the 11th). You say "Ireland does not need the poppy" which obviously goes against everything I was ever taught in school & by my parents. Approximately 200,000 Irish men went off the fight in the Geat War 1914-1918, 30,000 of whom died on Flanders poppy fields, (which is a shocking figure when you think about it), then again in Wold War II when appoximately another 10,000 Irish men died fighting the Nazi's. My Irish Gandad was among the fallen along with all the other 50,000+ Irish casualties. The poppy has always been the symbol of the fallen, and those of us who honour the dead wear the poppy with pride, however, it is a personal choice, and it makes no odds to me what other people do or do not do, to mark the 11th.

The South Dublin Chuch I attend will hold its annual Remembrance sevice on the 13th (nearest Sunday to the 11th), most of the congregation will be wearing poppies as usual, and a lone bugler will play the last post after the minute's silence that honours the dead, & that marks the Armistice.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 11:53am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

For breaking the "laws" of an oppressive foreign invader (who have no right to jurisdiction on this island) and fighting for justice and equality for all on this island.

"Let our revenge be the laughter of our children."

Carrying a gun and being a member of a terrorist organisation is illegal in Ireland as well.

Rubecula · 01-11-2011 11:55am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

LordSutch wrote: »

Well I am not ex forces, but I am Irish, and I contribute to the poppy appeal fund in Dublin every year, and in return I wear a poppy every day on the streets of Dublin leading up to Remembrance Sunday (which may, or may not fall on the 11th). You say "Ireland does not need the poppy" which obviously goes against everything I was ever taught in school & by my parents. Approximately 200,000 Irish men went off the fight in the Geat War 1914-1918, 30,000 of whom died on Flanders poppy fields, (which is a shocking figure when you think about it), then again in Wold War II when appoximately another 10,000 Irish men died fighting the Nazi's. My Irish Gandad was among the fallen along with all the other 50,000+ Irish casualties. The poppy has always been the symbol of the fallen, and those of us who honour the dead wear the poppy with pride, however, it is a personal choice, and it makes no odds to me what other people do or do not do, to mark the 11th.

The South Dublin Chuch I attend will hold its annual Remembrance sevice on the 13th (nearest Sunday to the 11th), most of the congregation will be wearing poppies as usual, and a lone bugler will play the last post after the minute's silence that honours the dead, and that marks the Armistice.

I truly wish I could be there for that, as my Grandfather was from that area too. I will be attending a service in Holyhead on the day, but my thoughts always turn to him.

krissovo · 01-11-2011 12:05pm

No (I'm Irish)

As a ex British serviceman who is Irish I do not care in slightest what the Irish do. I never expected any support from the Irish when I signed up but I would hope the Irish respect if I want to wear a poppy and not question my intentions.

Incidentally after injuries sustained while serving I was the recipient of funds from the British Legion so its not just supporting long fallen hero's. Irish soldiers are getting injured every year serving the BA both in combat and piece time operations and I expect a few will be searching for work after cuts.

Whatever you think the British Legion does great work and they only see the serviceman not the nationality of the serviceman.

Pete Digger · 01-11-2011 12:11pm

Rubecula wrote: »

My own feelings on this (I am British by the way so you can see where I am coming from)

There have been very many brave people who died and have been ignored. The Poppy is a way of remembering them. Ireland does not need the poppy, but it should in my own opinion make some sort of statement to remember the brave souls it has lost, in whatever field of endeavour, not necessarily the wars.

I wear my poppy with a certain pride when remembrance day comes around. I remember and feel sorrow for the loss and happy that I live in relative safety because of people who made that ultimate sacrifice.

By the way I said at the start I am British, which is very true. My family comes from the Dublin area, and my late grandfather fought in the Royal Irish Rifles in WW1. My thinking may be coloured a bit by the fact I am ex forces myself.

Your post raises the questions of identity and family history. I was born and bred in England, of Irish parents. My three elder brothers - I'm the youngest - were all born in Ireland. I never felt anything other than Irish. When the time came to get a passport, I never considered anything other than Irish one.

When 'poppy time' would come around each year, pretty much none of the Irish people I knew - or their offspring like me, the famous Plastic Paddies - would wear poppies. The parental logic imparted to me was that the poppy honoured all those who fought for the British (it's absolutely true that no distinction is made about whether you're Irish, Polish, Nepalese or Indian fighting for the Empire) and this raised two problems. Both my grandfathers fought against the British in the fight for independence and amongst those who would have directly benefitted from the Poppy Appeal were ex Black & Tans (I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so yes, a few of them would still have been knocking around the various British Legion clubs).

I'd cleave the response to the thread title in two. Should the Irish people commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? Yes, they should remember every Irish person who demonstrated bravery and sacrifice. Should this be done via the British Poppy? No. The Poppy Appeal is in remembrance of British soldiers. We can remember all our war dead, but we don't have to do it via a foreign conduit.

LordSutch · 01-11-2011 12:15pm

No (I'm Irish)

Pete Digger wrote: »

I'd cleave the response to the thread title in two. Should the Irish people commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? Yes, they should remember every Irish person who demonstrated bravery and sacrifice. Should this be done via the British Poppy? No. The Poppy Appeal is in remembrance of British soldiers. We can remember all our war dead, but we don't have to do it via a foreign conduit.

Can I ask you then how you feel about my comments/observations in post#431. I might also add (as I do evey year) that the Poppy appeal fund in the ROI is self contained, ergo it supporst ROI war veterans & their families only.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 12:25pm

krissovo wrote: »

As a ex British serviceman who is Irish I do not care in slightest what the Irish do. I never expected any support from the Irish when I signed up but I would hope the Irish respect if I want to wear a poppy and not question my intentions.

Incidentally after injuries sustained while serving I was the recipient of funds from the British Legion so its not just supporting long fallen hero's. Irish soldiers are getting injured every year serving the BA both in combat and piece time operations and I expect a few will be searching for work after cuts.

Whatever you think the British Legion does great work and they only see the serviceman not the nationality of the serviceman.

You're a mercenary who made your own choices, I can think of a lot more worthy causes. You were more than willing to inflict the same injuries on other people, you're no hero and neither are the ones out there today putting civilian populations are risk for Bush and Blair's interests.

There's one born every minute as they say.......

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 12:27pm

Rubecula wrote: »

My sincerest apologies as I didn't realise that.

no bother
p.s I think the poppy is a good idea for anyone who had a relative in the british army

krissovo · 01-11-2011 12:31pm

No (I'm Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

You're a mercenary who made your own choices, I can think of a lot more worthy causes. You were more than willing to inflict the same injuries on other people, you're no hero and neither are the ones out there today putting civilian populations are risk for Bush and Blair's interests.

There's one born every minute as they say.......

You don't even know me or what I did for the BA and yet your quick to pass judgment :rolleyes:

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 12:32pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Well I am not ex forces, but I am Irish, and I contribute to the poppy appeal fund in Dublin every year, and in return I wear a poppy every day on the streets of Dublin leading up to Remembrance Sunday (which may, or may not fall on the 11th). You say "Ireland does not need the poppy" which obviously goes against everything I was ever taught in school & by my parents. Approximately 200,000 Irish men went off the fight in the Geat War 1914-1918, 30,000 of whom died on Flanders poppy fields, (which is a shocking figure when you think about it), then again in Wold War II when appoximately another 10,000 Irish men died fighting the Nazi's. My Irish Gandad was among the fallen along with all the other 50,000+ Irish casualties. The poppy has always been the symbol of the fallen, and those of us who honour the dead wear the poppy with pride, however, it is a personal choice, and it makes no odds to me what other people do or do not do, to mark the 11th.

The South Dublin Chuch I attend will hold its annual Remembrance sevice on the 13th (nearest Sunday to the 11th), most of the congregation will be wearing poppies as usual, and a lone bugler will play the last post after the minute's silence that honours the dead, & that marks the Armistice.

A beautiful story... but if only the poppy was worn in memory of such brave men and not others responsible for the needless deaths of many many people in foreign lands that Britain has absolutely no right to be in.

cournioni · 01-11-2011 12:32pm

Should the Irish State and people in general commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? Definately not.

Should an Irish individual (or individuals) commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? By all means.

The British Empire has caused too many atrocities on this island against Irish people for that to happen in my opinion.

Rubecula · 01-11-2011 12:36pm

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

You're a mercenary who made your own choices, I can think of a lot more worthy causes. You were more than willing to inflict the same injuries on other people, you're no hero and neither are the ones out there today putting civilian populations are risk for Bush and Blair's interests.

There's one born every minute as they say.......

Your words seem to be overly harsh. I don't know if that is how you meant them to be. But at least you have expressed your honest opinion and I respect that.

I never concidered myself to be a mercenary, I joined up of my own free will I admit, but I did so in the sincere belief I would be doing the right thing.

Was I right or wrong? I will have to let History decide that one. I do know that I believed in the freedom of the people to live how they wanted to live and I would have fought for that freedom as did my ancestors before me.

To this day I personally think what I did was right, both for what I believed and for myself personally. Incidentally, I never shot or for that matter hurt anyone when I was serving (Unless you count a motor accident when I nearly killed myself) I have seen lots of worse examples of 'mercenary types' as a civilian. Some people deliberately go out of their way to hurt others, either physically or mentally.

But yes watching things on the news does seem to show how armed forces the world over can be ... unpleasant? This applies to whoever and whatever cause you support.

ejmaztec · 01-11-2011 12:43pm

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

You're a mercenary who made your own choices, I can think of a lot more worthy causes. You were more than willing to inflict the same injuries on other people, you're no hero and neither are the ones out there today putting civilian populations are risk for Bush and Blair's interests.

There's one born every minute as they say.......

I think they've gone.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:47pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think they've gone.

Bush and Blair are quite up to date for some people. A lot of posters still think it is 1916.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 12:51pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think they've gone.

Their wars aren't though.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 12:53pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Bush and Blair are quite up to date for some people. A lot of posters still think it is 1916.

I agree, the Somme is long gone, the poppy is stained by the blood of the people of Ireland, Palestine, Kenya, India and shouldn't be worn. Get with the times, people.

getz · 01-11-2011 12:55pm

No (I'm British/not Irish)

cournioni wrote: »

Should the Irish State and people in general commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? Definately not.

Should an Irish individual (or individuals) commemorate people who fought for the British Empire? By all means.

The British Empire has caused too many atrocities on this island against Irish people for that to happen in my opinion.

it would be far better if you read the irish goverments own web site about irish men and women who fought in WW1 ect, ,www.taoiseach.gov.ie <home < taoiseach and goverment then scroll down to irish soldiers in the first world war

ejmaztec · 01-11-2011 12:57pm

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Their wars aren't though.

Iraq's pretty much fizzled out, and Afghanistan wasn't just a joint effort for the UK and the US, as a lot more countries are involved in it, Ireland included.

Gingko · 01-11-2011 1:10pm

krissovo wrote: »

You don't even know me or what I did for the BA and yet your quick to pass judgment :rolleyes:

And just what do the British and U.S. forces do exactly again??? Neither are "peace keepers". They are installed around the world to protect vested interests and divide peoples and opinions just so as indigenous resources can be raped and controlled? Their police for the anglo-saxon-american nightmare sweeping much of the planet. Irish people who join the British forces are either confused, ignorant of what they are been used for or just plain thick!

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:15pm

Gingko wrote: »

And just what do the British and U.S. forces do exactly again??? Neither are "peace keepers". They are installed around the world to protect vested interests and divide peoples and opinions just so as indigenous resources can be raped and controlled? Their police for the anglo-saxon-american nightmare sweeping much of the planet. Irish people who join the British forces are either confused, ignorant of what they are been used for or just plain thick!

And what about Irish people who serve alongside them in Kuwait, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Cyprus?

ejmaztec · 01-11-2011 1:19pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Bush and Blair are quite up to date for some people. A lot of posters still think it is 1916.

It'll be 1690 when the regular Northern contributor arrives on the scene. This thread's like a Doctor Who episode on acid.

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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