British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2011 7:25pm

SWL wrote: »

Firstly the Easter lily which you were happy to ridicule commemorates the individuals and not the "force" who opposed a foreign force occupying their Country. A political ideology that will or never would occur in Britain.

The rest of your post is simply propaganda and waffle; you need to stop using Sky news as a source of information.

Btw members of the Irish Army are in Afghanistan have been for a couple years teaching the Brits and the US how to disarm road side bombs.

Edit:
The search and rescue example is also false both the UK and Irelands zones for rescue overlap, so when a British rescue crew rescue someone on a boat usually the first stop is Ireland to drop off the causality and collect fuel there are maps available on the internet. I am not going to post them as it’s off topic.

Ireland got its own citizens out of Libya some went with the RAF because the Irish could not get permission to land. I am pretty sure UK and other European citizens were on board the Irish jet.

Sadam eviction from Kuwait had nothing to do with the UK humanitarian relief or as you put it stepping up to the plate. Everyone was there for oil simple as that.

Does “persuading government s to step up to the place in terms of Global commitment” include starting three wars in three different countries in less than 10 years all in the name of defeating terrorism? Only to find that the terrorist are more likely to be British citizens living in the UK. 7/7 is a chilling example.

I wasn't ridiculing the Lilly, I was ridiculing Lilly fascism, it was in reference to Poppy fascism that is often expressed in the uk.

As for the rest......it might be a good idea to start smelling some coffee.

Cork boy 55 · 26-10-2011 8:49pm

tune on the topic from
President Mulqueen

Britazi Cult of the War Dead

slapbangwallop · 26-10-2011 8:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wasn't ridiculing the Lilly, I was ridiculing Lilly fascism, it was in reference to Poppy fascism that is often expressed in the uk.

As for the rest......it might be a good idea to start smelling some coffee.

Lily =

Lilly =

Chuck Stone · 26-10-2011 9:15pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Thats quite correct, the poppy was 'as you know' originally worn to commerate the dead from the Great War, and since then it has come to be a symbol for all war dead, and not just those who fell on the poppy fields.

I hate the way that war was called 'great' and how those who had their bodies torn to pieces by bombs, bullets and bayonets are described as 'the fallen' as if they'd just tripped and grazed their knees and then it was over.

ejmaztec · 26-10-2011 9:25pm

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Lily =

Lilly =

Lilly seems to be quite popular with a number of people in this thread, but we keep quiet about it so as not to be accused of grammar-nazism.:P

jpm4 · 26-10-2011 9:57pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I hate the way that war was called 'great' and how those who had their bodies torn to pieces by bombs, bullets and bayonets are described as 'the fallen' as if they'd just tripped and grazed their knees and then it was over.

"Great meaning large or immense, We use it in the pejorative sense." Simpsons have a quote for everything

Dyr · 26-10-2011 10:16pm

Ah is it west brit season already? Seems to start earlier every year :mad:

partyguinness · 29-10-2011 4:09pm

For the people who have posted to say that the poppy represents the futility of war, that is absolute nonsense and either they are deluded or think the rest of us are.

It is a symbol of British military emperialism. It also glorifies the so called "Great War" and I will tell you why..

Over the past 2 days I have stopped and read three "Great War" memorials in my locality in the West Midlands, they all use the following words: "glory"; "glorious" and/or "glorious dead" and various combinations thereof. I am willing to bet that 99.9% of memorials throughout the UK contain the same words about the glory of the dead.

If the British truely believed in the futility of war they could have followed the German and Japanese examples and expressly outlawed the waging/declaring of war into their Constitutions.

That would have been the greatest memorial to the soldiers who died.

But of course the military is big business in the UK and must be sustained.

If the British people want to wear pieces of plastic that resemble poppies to make themselves feel better or to resolve some collective historical guilt, let them at it.

In fact, I think every 11th November at various ceremonies, an official apology should be read out from the British Gov apologising to the families for sending and conscripting thousands upon thousands of young men to a pointless and cruel death for absolutely no reason whatsoever......yeah right...!

philologos · 29-10-2011 4:18pm

No (I'm Irish)

partyguinness: Surely this is about toleration. Personally I don't expect or require you to respect the poppy. I accept your liberty to differ with me. I more than likely won't be wearing the poppy this year, but if I got one I would, not just because of where I live and work now.

I think the main point of it is to respect the dead at war. That's what I take from it. To respect all who have died in war.

You're entitled to view it as you like, but I don't believe you are entitled to dictate to other people as to how they should view it. Why can't you just tolerate it like I and others tolerate your position?

Edit: Also your logic is flawed. Just because someone wears the poppy doesn't mean that they have to agree with the British Legion or with the British Government in entirety. By wearing the poppy which I have done in the past in Ireland, I'm not representing Britain, I'm representing the pain and suffering of war in all forms.

JohnIRL · 29-10-2011 4:27pm

Think of it this way:

Should the British commemorate people who fought for the Nazis?

What's the difference? Both caused horrific suffering.

philologos · 29-10-2011 4:30pm

No (I'm Irish)

I think we should abandon the term "The British" given that many people in other countries choose to remember.

Personally, I think that people irrespective of nationality should be remembered. We have to remember that for a lot of people the only reason they were on the front line was by virtue of birth in that many were conscripted. I also think that even those who willed to be the on the frontline should be remembered on either side.

Having said that, I don't see it as unreasonable to think that the result of victory over Nazism was a good thing across Europe.

passarellaie · 29-10-2011 4:46pm

The poppy is a wonderful tool of the London elites to bring inclusivity to the poor clowns in places like West Dumbartonshire where no less than 17000 work for the defence forces.These and the Irish when we were the periphery had to be educated in the glory of their sacrifice to keep the empire and the elite RICH
The reality is anyone here who supports poppy wearing are mere stooges of the London financial centre

JohnIRL · 29-10-2011 4:50pm

philologos wrote: »

I think we should abandon the term "The British" given that many people in other countries choose to remember.

Personally, I think that people irrespective of nationality should be remembered. We have to remember that for a lot of people the only reason they were on the front line was by virtue of birth in that many were conscripted. I also think that even those who willed to be the on the frontline should be remembered on either side.

Having said that, I don't see it as unreasonable to think that the result of victory over Nazism was a good thing across Europe.

Neither is it unreasonable to think that the partial victory Ireland had over the British Empire was a good thing.

I agree with you that people on either side should be remembered, but there's something foul about Irish fighting for the British when they should be fighting for Ireland against the British.

I can understand British fighting for the Britain, and Germans fighting for Germany etc, but not fighting for what would have been the enemy (and Britain was the enemy as it was the invading force in Ireland).

Having said that I just want to point out that I'm not anti-British.

philologos · 29-10-2011 5:01pm

No (I'm Irish)

JohnIRL wrote: »

Neither is it unreasonable to think that the partial victory Ireland had over the British Empire was a good thing.

I agree with you that people on either side should be remembered, but there's something foul about Irish fighting for the British when they should be fighting for Ireland against the British.

I can understand British fighting for the Britain, and Germans fighting for Germany etc, but not fighting for what would have been the enemy (and Britain was the enemy as it was the invading force in Ireland).

Having said that I just want to point out that I'm not anti-British.

I agree with your sentiment that a partial victory in the case of Ireland was overall a good thing. I also as I said before think victory over Nazism was a good thing. I absolutely deplore the means by which these outcomes were reached though.

I don't see what is wrong in using November 11th as a time to reflect on the tragedy that is global conflict and war.

passarellaie: I don't see how your argument works. If the poppy wasn't significant outside of the City of London then you'd be right, it would be something simply for the bankers and the financial elites. What is clear is that for many people the significance of reflecting on the tragedy of war is productive. That's something I wouldn't begrudge to anyone.

laoch na mona · 29-10-2011 5:05pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Thats quite correct, the poppy was 'as you know' originally worn to commerate the dead from the Great War, and since then it has come to be a symbol for all war dead, and not just those who fell on the poppy fields.

does that included the brits who died in ireland?
there is nothing good to say about them

passarellaie · 29-10-2011 5:44pm

passarellaie: I don't see how your argument works. If the poppy wasn't significant outside of the City of London then you'd be right, it would be something simply for the bankers and the financial elites. What is clear is that for many people the significance of reflecting on the tragedy of war is productive. That's something I wouldn't begrudge to anyone.[/QUOTE]

You miss my point.The London elites use it and propagate its use forcefully to indoctrinate the poor people in disadvantaged areas whose only hope of wotk is often in the "armed Forces"
As they have done for centuries in so many areas to protect themselves they have done this very well.
Of course nobody could deny the hurt suffered by families in wars.
My problem with the poppy is that the elites use it to perpetuate the popularity of military force to SERVE ITS ENDS.

partyguinness · 29-10-2011 10:57pm

philologos wrote: »

partyguinness: Surely this is about toleration. Personally I don't expect or require you to respect the poppy. I accept your liberty to differ with me. I more than likely won't be wearing the poppy this year, but if I got one I would, not just because of where I live and work now.

I think the main point of it is to respect the dead at war. That's what I take from it. To respect all who have died in war.

You're entitled to view it as you like, but I don't believe you are entitled to dictate to other people as to how they should view it. Why can't you just tolerate it like I and others tolerate your position?

Edit: Also your logic is flawed. Just because someone wears the poppy doesn't mean that they have to agree with the British Legion or with the British Government in entirety. By wearing the poppy which I have done in the past in Ireland, I'm not representing Britain, I'm representing the pain and suffering of war in all forms.

Let's be clear. I am not intolerant of people wearing the Poppy. My wife will wear one and go to a memorial on Armistice Day (her father was in the Navy and grand uncle fought in WWI in Flanders..survived). I completely respect your decision to wear or not wear one. Countries should commemorate their war dead no matter what country.

My point from the beginning of this thread has been about the "Poppy Fascists" and how the Poppy has moved over the past 10 years from:

My objection/observation is about how the goal posts have shifted from a). British dead in WWI to b) All British soldiers who have died, and now it is for ALL soldiers or people who have died in war (I don’t see the names of any other soldiers on the memorials…but anyway).

In some ways I see the Poppy has been hijacked to suit the current agenda (support for the war in Iraq and Afgan). Two very basic examples:

1. Up to 10 years ago, you saw the poppy sporadically on TV. People made their own choice to wear one. No problem there. Now, the BBC (among others) insist that all presenters and guests wear a poppy.

2. The band Girls Aloud played on BBC 2-3 years ago. All the band wore poppies except Nadine Coyle (being of a Nationalist persuasion and from Derry was hardly surprising). All hell broke loose and the chattering classes were on their way complaining and she was forced to defend herself over the following days.

I find this outrageous. Britain is supposed to be a Western democracy and where is the tolerance for people who decide not to wear on.

If such a stance was taken on the Easter Lilly, for example, I would be equally disgusted. I would see it as an attack on what it represents. I have an Easter Lilly, I have it attached to my Proclamation in my house. I don't feel the need to wear it, I do not feel like I have to wear it to establish my Irish or Republican credentials. That's my choice. Some do wear it…not many.

I think it says far more about the insecurity of the British psyche that they feel this constant need to reaffirm their past or identity with medals and awards (eg Knighthood, MBEs, Poppies etc). As if they are worried that everyone will forget so they cling to this notion of the poppy being so important. They have a fragile ego.

Wearing poppies does nothing for those who died. As I said earlier, a more fitting memorial would be to stop invading other sovereign countries and sending home coffins which gives even more opportunity to wallow in grief which taps into the national psyche and keeps opposition to current wars muted.

It represents a deep underlying insecurity and to be honest I find it quite sad and disrespectful to the actual dead because by almost forcing people to wear one and being so it your face it totally undermines a basic principle of a democracy.

I have no issue whatsoever with people wearing one but I do object to the ‘in your face’ almost competition like approach and shoe horning people into wearing one and also this nonsense that it represents the futility of war and does not glorify the dead or so called great war.

I fundamentally disagree with the last two propositions, not with your right to wear on.

I just see a lack of honesty and transparency over the past 10 years or so.

ps Still cannot see where my logic is flawed.

partyguinness · 29-10-2011 11:01pm

passarellaie wrote: »

passarellaie: I don't see how your argument works. If the poppy wasn't significant outside of the City of London then you'd be right, it would be something simply for the bankers and the financial elites. What is clear is that for many people the significance of reflecting on the tragedy of war is productive. That's something I wouldn't begrudge to anyone.

You miss my point.The London elites use it and propagate its use forcefully to indoctrinate the poor people in disadvantaged areas whose only hope of wotk is often in the "armed Forces"
As they have done for centuries in so many areas to protect themselves they have done this very well.
Of course nobody could deny the hurt suffered by families in wars.
My problem with the poppy is that the elites use it to perpetuate the popularity of military force to SERVE ITS ENDS.[/QUOTE]

Excellent. Glad I am not the only one who sees this.

Interestingly the USA does not show coffins of dead soldiers returning as support would plummet.

In the UK by contrast, they cant get enough of the coffins of soldiers of TV...hell that town just got a Royal Charter. It taps into the national psyche of wallowing and keeps the show going.

Am sure their is a PhD waiting for someone on that point.

NufcNavan · 29-10-2011 11:29pm

Perhaps when there is a poppy or some other sort of commemoration for all of the people that the British Army killed, then I'll consider it a good idea to wear one.

partyguinness · 29-10-2011 11:34pm

NufcNavan wrote: »

Perhaps when there is a poppy or some other sort of commemoration for all of the people that the British Army killed, then I'll consider it a good idea to wear one.

Ah put you see...they were all "terrorists" or pesky civilians that got in the way...;)

OPENROAD · 29-10-2011 11:36pm

So has anyone actually changed their viewpoint since last year..the year before that ..the year before that etc etc...................... That was a quick year imo

partyguinness · 29-10-2011 11:38pm

OPENROAD wrote: »

So has anyone actually changed their viewpoint since last year..the year before that ..the year before that etc etc...................... That was a quick year imo

Yeah the year flies. Might as well cut, past and save for next year...:)

getz · 01-11-2011 8:36am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

You miss my point.The London elites use it and propagate its use forcefully to indoctrinate the poor people in disadvantaged areas whose only hope of wotk is often in the "armed Forces"
As they have done for centuries in so many areas to protect themselves they have done this very well.
Of course nobody could deny the hurt suffered by families in wars.
My problem with the poppy is that the elites use it to perpetuate the popularity of military force to SERVE ITS ENDS.

Excellent. Glad I am not the only one who sees this.

Interestingly the USA does not show coffins of dead soldiers returning as support would plummet.

In the UK by contrast, they cant get enough of the coffins of soldiers of TV...hell that town just got a Royal Charter. It taps into the national psyche of wallowing and keeps the show going.

Am sure their is a PhD waiting for someone on that point.[/QUOTE]
quick easy answer,why are you watching british TV,reading british newspapers ,and more interested in what the british are up to, than living you own life ? and i think the PHD would be more interested in your mind than the british nation

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 8:47am

If you want to wear a poppy then wear it, it should be up to individuals to do as they please.

However, the poppy nazi's are out in force in Britain these days and failure to wear one seems to result in much negative comment. The irony of standing up to the Nazi's to become a type of fascist is not lost on me.

These British soldiers that you're giving money to are responsible for the murder of many Irish people, I don't think they're worthy of my money so I won't give them any. I won't stick up for the murder of Irish people by foreign invading forces, why would Irish people want to swell these guys retirement funds? They're murderes who chose murder as a career.

It's a pity that the people who fought for the British Empire, and run into hard times, are cast aside by their own Government, why do they have to resort to begging to earn a few €€€? They put their lives on the line, why aren't they looked properly without resorting to this begging?

As always, some Irish people will look at what the Brits do and copy them as they see it as a fashionable thing to do without having any understanding of the murderers that they're supporting.

getz · 01-11-2011 9:06am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If you want to wear a poppy then wear it, it should be up to individuals to do as they please.

However, the poppy nazi's are out in force in Britain these days and failure to wear one seems to result in much negative comment. The irony of standing up to the Nazi's to become a type of fascist is not lost on me.

These British soldiers that you're giving money to are responsible for the murder of many Irish people, I don't think they're worthy of my money so I won't give them any. I won't stick up for the murder of Irish people by foreign invading forces, why would Irish people want to swell these guys retirement funds? They're murderes who chose murder as a career.

It's a pity that the people who fought for the British Empire, and run into hard times, are cast aside by their own Government, why do they have to resort to begging to earn a few €€€? They put their lives on the line, why aren't they looked properly without resorting to this begging?

As always, some Irish people will look at what the Brits do and copy them as they see it as a fashionable thing to do without having any understanding of the murderers that they're supporting.

all money raised by selling poppies in ireland,stays in ireland and goes to irish people only ,and you have just called the irshmen,women, and families ,who get the benefits from the selling of poppies, murders who chose murder as a career,

BrensBenz · 01-11-2011 9:37am

Personally, I've no problem commemorating the millions of "salt of the Earth" people, on all sides, who died at war but I think it's time to consider an annual and international gesture of disgust for the monarchs, politicians and generals whose failures caused these wars. World War 1 was a "royal family feud" which killed 20+ million people; WW2 was inevitable after the politicians' cock-up at Versailles. And the phrase "they started it" should be consigned forever to the schoolyard.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 9:43am

getz wrote: »

all money raised by selling poppies in ireland,stays in ireland and goes to irish people only ,and you have just called the irshmen,women, and families ,who get the benefits from the selling of poppies, murders who chose murder as a career,

Fair point, I retract that comment.

It's whomever was the person in the British Army that chose murder as a career, not their family.

getz · 01-11-2011 9:48am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

BrensBenz wrote: »

Personally, I've no problem commemorating the millions of "salt of the Earth" people, on all sides, who died at war but I think it's time to consider an annual and international gesture of disgust for the monarchs, politicians and generals whose failures caused these wars. World War 1 was a "royal family feud" which killed 20+ million people; WW2 was inevitable after the politicians' cock-up at Versailles. And the phrase "they started it" should be consigned forever to the schoolyard.

tell me more.

getz · 01-11-2011 10:07am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Fair point, I retract that comment.

It's whomever was the person in the British Army that chose murder as a career, not their family.

thats OK i can more than most know how passionate people can get in their beliefs, forget the UK,in the case of ireland,30,000 irish families lost loved ones during WW1,and in the second world war over 10,000 irish families,some lads went into it for adventure,or a belief that they were saving the world,or even for economic reasons,even so they are dead,the poppy is in memory of those lads,and anything raised in ireland is for them, dont donate for a poppy is you feel that bad about it,thats up to you,but at the same time if some old granny wants to remember a loved /husband brother ect on a certain day,cannot you respect that ?

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 10:13am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Fair point, I retract that comment.

It's whomever was the person in the British Army that chose murder as a career, not their family.

Says the man who names himself after a terrorist.

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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