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Strange question asked to me before voting...

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2

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    #32
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Gergiev wrote: »
    I suggest some of the writers above who were asked about their intentions regarding receiving ballots contact press or radio and see how this goes... VG

    100% Roger Roger.

    But I also suspect people, as in polling station staff, were doing as [they perceived] instructions and no other motive.

    Today, myself and my wife approached the section we were shown to, I saw only ONE person that I recognised from my last visit to the Holy Cross, Cork.

    My wife handed over the two cards ~ strictly not legal? and we were handed back our ballot papers, nothing was asked of us, no ID was requested but one of the boys may have known us, but as mentioned, we didn't know anyone, I thought has this place changed so much??

    I'm not making a complaint, I'm 55, and voted since 18 with few if any exceptions.

    We voted approximately 11.00am.


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    #33
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Yea, no ID asked for either, bit of a sham tbh.


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    #34
    JimsAlterEgo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭JimsAlterEgo


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    Yea, no ID asked for either, bit of a sham tbh.

    only random isn't it?


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    #35
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Lots of people refused the referendum ballots is why.

    What an utterly rediculous thing to do. If you are unhappy with the fact that the government has not made a sufficient effort to explain the facts to you, then logically I'd think the right course of action is to leave things as they currently stand in the constitution by voting no to the amendment. Basically abstaining yourself and letting others make the decision for you, sounds a bit Irish to me...


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    #36
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    We'll see where it goes from here:
    Irish Times wrote:
    Voters from various parts of the State expressed surprise at being asked in their polling station if they wanted all three ballot papers.

    A spokeswoman for the Dublin City local returning officer said there was no directive with regard to such a question. It could be seen as remiss of the officer at the polling station to assume the voter wanted all three ballot papers at once, or at all.

    The number of stamped ballot papers handed out had to match the number recorded as taken from the ballot box when it was opened.

    The spokeswoman said the question posed at some polling stations was “just a human response to a practical problem”.


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    #37
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    gbee wrote: »
    In point of fact ~ no. You turn up to vote, you present ONE voting card and it's crossed off and your voting card is destroyed, there and then.

    So I really think this statement is in error.
    Voting card doesn't need to be destroyed. I still have mine.


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    #38
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Raging_Ninja wrote: »
    Orders in the book were to ask the question and record how many of each were used. Later on word came down on from our returning officers to just hand the ballot papers out.

    We have to do what the book says, unless we receive instructions to the contrary.

    And just so you know, there is no way to know who votes what and how. The polling cards that were sent out in the post are not required to vote, you are not compelled to hand them in, and no note is made in what order people vote.

    We also had a few people who wanted to vote only on the presidential, or on one or neither of the referanda.
    Please talk to the Irish Times / other media: newsdesk (at) irishtimes.com


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    #39
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    My mother was working at the polling stations yesterday, the reason why people may have been asked is that if the ballot is stamped and then the person says they don't want it, it will count as a spoiled vote. If they say before it's stamped it doesn't count as a spoiled vote. Probably trying to make life easier for the people at the count reducing the number of blank ballots.

    Perhaps the people asking if they wanted the referenda ballots were fed up with handing out stamped ballots that were immediately refused.

    I don't think it's really a biggie.


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    #40
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Perhaps the people asking if they wanted the referenda ballots were fed up with handing out stamped ballots that were immediately refused.
    They are paid to be 'fed up'.


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    #41
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    What an utterly rediculous thing to do. If you are unhappy with the fact that the government has not made a sufficient effort to explain the facts to you, then logically I'd think the right course of action is to leave things as they currently stand in the constitution by voting no to the amendment. Basically abstaining yourself and letting others make the decision for you, sounds a bit Irish to me...

    Couldn't agree more. I cannot understand this.

    If you are not sure whether any proposed amendment to the Constitution is a good or bad thing then, maintain status quo. If an amendment fails to pass, it can always be revisited like Nice and Lisbon :rolleyes: with slightly amended text and/or better debate and understanding etc..

    Doing nothing and potentially allowing a yes vote to go through means you won't really get the chance to get a clearer idea of the consequences of the change until the change is already made. Ridiculous :mad:


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    #42
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Victor wrote: »
    They are paid to be 'fed up'.

    They were also informed at the training session to expect people to refuse the referendum ballots.

    I still think they shouldn't have asked but I can understand why they did, again I don't think it's that big of an issue.


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    #43
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    A weird thing happened to me. At least, it was against my expectation. I went to vote, and I asked for the 3 sheets. The woman said to dump them in the one box, which I thought was not correct, surely they were supposed to be separated into Referendum votes and Presidentail Votes?


    This was at Jobstown.


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    #44
    PJ Maybe
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭PJ Maybe


    gbee wrote: »
    In point of fact ~ no. You turn up to vote, you present ONE voting card and it's crossed off and your voting card is destroyed, there and then.

    So I really think this statement is in error.

    I'm sorry you are incorrect. You don't even have to have a polling card in order to vote, your name just needs to be in the register.

    Yesterday if you took less than the three ballot papers then the papers you took were marked in the register to allow you to exercise the vote you were entitled to later on in the day should you wish.

    Question should still not have been asked though.

    @Snakeblood - It depends on the district you were voting in, some had seperate boxes, others had only one with them being sorted this morning.


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    #45
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    PJ Maybe wrote: »
    I'm sorry you are incorrect. You don't even have to have a polling card in order to vote, your name just needs to be in the register.

    Yesterday if you took less than the three ballot papers then the papers you took were marked in the register to allow you to exercise the vote you were entitled to later on in the day should you wish.

    Question should still not have been asked though.

    @Snakeblood - It depends on the district you were voting in, some had seperate boxes, others had only one with them being sorted this morning.

    Cool, I just heard it on the radio the day before, they were explaining the polling system and seemed specific about the way things were being done.


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    #46
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more. I cannot understand this.

    If you are not sure whether any proposed amendment to the Constitution is a good or bad thing then, maintain status quo. If an amendment fails to pass, it can always be revisited like Nice and Lisbon :rolleyes: with slightly amended text and/or better debate and understanding etc..

    Doing nothing and potentially allowing a yes vote to go through means you won't really get the chance to get a clearer idea of the consequences of the change until the change is already made. Ridiculous :mad:

    I voted no to both proposed ammendments. The more inspiring or stronger factors motivating me on my part for doing this was because I don't see a big issue with judges pay. If you were appointed a judge in the morning, you would not be starting on the same salary as a judge who was appointed back in the hay day of the Celtic Tiger. Many currently sitting judges have already taken a voluntary pay cut. So we have a few judges still sitting who we need to pass through the system, this hardly warrants ammending the constitution I think, especially where the current provision has served us well until now. As for the other proposed ammendment, not a chance I was voting for that and I wouldn't insult anyone by elaborating upon that decision.

    One of the lesser reasons why I also voted no, was because I don't believe the government made any effort whatsoever to properly prepare the proposed ammendments in the first place and then to communicate the meaning and the affect of the ammendments if they were carried, to the people of Ireland, so I also factored that into my decision to vote no on both proposed ammendments.

    I am at a loss to understand why any person would feel sufficiently isolated or confused, to just surrender their ability to defend the constitution as it currently stands, before they even think about changing it. If you don't like the look of something that someone is trying to sell you, then to my mind the smart thing to do is to stand with what you already have, not hand the whole problem of your decision to your neighbour.


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    #47
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    As a side issue to the question of people refusing/not taking ballot papers, and general confusion over the referenda: is there a minimum quota that needs to be reached for a referendum to be passed? Or is it possible for a low turnout coupled with low uptake of voting to lead to an 'invalid' referendum?


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    #48
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Focalbhach wrote: »
    As a side issue to the question of people refusing/not taking ballot papers, and general confusion over the referenda: is there a minimum quota that needs to be reached for a referendum to be passed? Or is it possible for a low turnout coupled with low uptake of voting to lead to an 'invalid' referendum?

    No I don't think a quota has to be reached in order for the poll to be valid, it's 50% plus one of whoever votes, regardless of how few vote.


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    #49
    bigdaddyliamo
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭bigdaddyliamo


    PJ Maybe wrote: »
    I'm sorry you are incorrect. You don't even have to have a polling card in order to vote, your name just needs to be in the register.

    Yesterday if you took less than the three ballot papers then the papers you took were marked in the register to allow you to exercise the vote you were entitled to later on in the day should you wish.

    Question should still not have been asked though.

    @Snakeblood - It depends on the district you were voting in, some had seperate boxes, others had only one with them being sorted this morning.

    The Poling card is personal property and should be handed back whereever possible. Any that are left to the Presiding officer should be collected and returned to the sheriff at the end of play as instructed at the training day.

    Just to add, a poling card is not needed if, 1.your name is on the regiter and 2. you have a valid ID

    In relation to the register: A person is fully entitled to exercise their franchise in all ballots. To assist in this the Presiding officer was instructed to mark a voter as follows: Mark the register with PR if Presidential ballot only taken, REF 1 if 29th Amendment taken and REF 2 if 30th amendment taken. Any combination of two of the above could be marked together or if all taken a good old line would suffice. I hope that clarifies that issue!;)


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    #50
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Victor wrote: »
    Voting card doesn't need to be destroyed. I still have mine.

    Funny you say that, on 96FM's morning radio programmes the host described the procedure which at his own polling station and there too the cards were destroyed before he left the table with his ballot papers.

    Did you ask for the card back?


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    #51
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    A weird thing happened to me. At least, it was against my expectation. I went to vote, and I asked for the 3 sheets. The woman said to dump them in the one box, which I thought was not correct, surely they were supposed to be separated into Referendum votes and Presidentail Votes?


    This was at Jobstown.

    She was correct... Each area has one box which takes all votes made on that day by people in that area.

    When the boxes are opened at the count centers, then the specific papers are seperated.


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    #52
    Gergiev
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Gergiev


    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    She was correct... Each area has one box which takes all votes made on that day by people in that area.

    Except in Dublin West where the bye-election votes were placed in a separate box.
    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    When the boxes are opened at the count centers, then the specific papers are seperated.

    Exactly, it doesn't matter that all 3 papers were placed in the same box as they are separated first and then counted.


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    #53
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    gbee wrote: »
    Did you ask for the card back?
    Yes, but by the answer I got, the polling clerk wasn't intending on taking it.


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    #54
    Gergiev
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Gergiev


    Lots of people refused the referendum ballots is why.

    What an utterly rediculous thing to do. If you are unhappy with the fact that the government has not made a sufficient effort to explain the facts to you, then logically I'd think the right course of action is to leave things as they currently stand in the constitution by voting no to the amendment. Basically abstaining yourself and letting others make the decision for you, sounds a bit Irish to me...

    The main reason some people would refuse is that clerks (incorrectly) offered them the choice of receiving or declining the papers.

    (In my station we automatically gave each voter the 3 papers and not one declined).

    As I predicted here last night, the returning officer denied when questioned today by the Irish Times ever issuing such an instruction which would be totally improper.

    AS HellFireClub implies, declining the paper could alter the result as most voters would err on the side of caution if having doubts about the meaning or import of the amendment.

    So after the millions and millions that we spend on closing the schools, paying the poll staff and promoting the amendments from public money, the result could be determined by this kind of unprofessional nonsense.

    However, I can't blame voters for not understanding the amendments as the public debate was almost non-existent and even the the voting slips themselves were deficient on information and could also have caused confusion.

    (In our station we had to assist several voters in explaining which was which and even sometimes what they were about).

    But that's a different matter entirely from improperly asking voters if they wish to receive the ballot paper...


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    #55
    mikeyboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭mikeyboy


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    A weird thing happened to me. At least, it was against my expectation. I went to vote, and I asked for the 3 sheets. The woman said to dump them in the one box, which I thought was not correct, surely they were supposed to be separated into Referendum votes and Presidentail Votes?


    This was at Jobstown.

    Just one box in each ballot station, they are separated out at the start of the count.


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    #56
    Gergiev
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Gergiev


    schemingbohemia wrote: »

    My mother was working at the polling stations yesterday, the reason why people may have been asked is that if the ballot is stamped and then the person says they don't want it, it will count as a spoiled vote. If they say before it's stamped it doesn't count as a spoiled vote. Probably trying to make life easier for the people at the count reducing the number of blank ballots.

    Perhaps the people asking if they wanted the referenda ballots were fed up with handing out stamped ballots that were immediately refused.

    I don't think it's really a biggie.

    With respect, that's nonsense.

    If the ballot is stamped and the voter declines it then you just give it to the next voter.

    The only time it would be a "spoiled vote" is if it was the last voter of the night and then it would have to be classified as such and dealt with accordingly.

    (The spoiled vote process is perfectly straightforward).

    And even if there were many "spoiled votes", it's our job as Presiding Officers to process them as such and not start minimising them for our own convenience.

    As I mentioned above, not one person in my own station declined the paper.

    But if you introduce the idea then inevitably it will start to happen with consequences for the result which is improper.

    And that's why it's a biggie...


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    #57
    Neddyusa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    Gergiev wrote: »
    The main reason some people would refuse is that clerks (incorrectly) offered them the choice of receiving or declining the papers.

    (In my station we automatically gave each voter the 3 papers and not one declined).

    As I predicted here last night, the returning officer denied when questioned today by the Irish Times ever issuing such an instruction which would be totally improper.

    AS HellFireClub implies, declining the paper could alter the result as most voters would err on the side of caution if having doubts about the meaning or import of the amendment.

    +1

    I have heard several comments by analysts on Tv and radio saying that people were refusing to take the referendum ballot papers. But I have not heard one report of the fact that voters were actively being presented with the option of declining them instead of being handed the three papers as they should have.

    In my polling station in Roscommon voters were handed the Presidential election ballot and then asked if we would like the referendum ballots. As others have posted here this could have altered the result of the votes.

    It appears that this was a widespread (apparently unsanctioned) practice in polling stations across the country. Given that this was totally inappropriate (as Gergiev highlighted), why has this not been mentioned in the broadcast media?

    And has the OP or anybody who complained about this practice received any response?


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    #58
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    It appears that this was a widespread (apparently unsanctioned) practice in polling stations across the country.
    Not apparently unsanctioned, this quote would appear to indicate a written instruction.
    Raging_Ninja wrote: »
    Orders in the book were to ask the question and record how many of each were used.


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    #59
    Raging_Ninja
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    The phrasing of the book I suppose was confusing. I honestly thought that was what we were supposed to do - the 'mark which ballots the voter uses' phrase in the book seemed to imply to ask the voter which ones they would like.


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    #60
    Gergiev
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Gergiev


    Raging_Ninja wrote: »

    The phrasing of the book I suppose was confusing. I honestly thought that was what we were supposed to do - the 'mark which ballots the voter uses' phrase in the book seemed to imply to ask the voter which ones they would like.

    RN, I wouldn't agree the phrasing in the book is confusing.

    The voter is automatically handed the ballots for whatever polls are taking place.

    That is explicit in the introductory instructions.

    The reference to marking the register (not the ballot as you stated - if that was the case the vote would be traceable which cause uproar) is later in the manual in the event of a voter (voluntarily) declining any ballot paper.

    This is to make sure the register and ballots correspond.

    Sounds like this might have been your first outing at the job.

    Were you acting as Presiding Officer or Poll Clerk?


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    #61
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    officer gave me all three papers, i just did not mark the yes and no papers, as i did not have enough information, i popped them in box anyway,
    but i would expect to get all three, not be asked if i were voting or not on all three, i think this statement should be reported to appropriate authorities


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