Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing · 28-10-2011 06:30PM

profitius wrote: »

It shouldn't be a problem for them.

All three have been good so far alright but it's a higher level than the Pro 12 for Barnes and POM. Murray's ascent has been so rapid you have to expect him to hit a bump sooner or later. That's not to criticise, all players go through it.

pajunior · 28-10-2011 06:59PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Decent is good enough to beat this current Munster team though, there's no point pretending otherwise. Our season is hinging on Botha staying fit (unlikely) and POM being the second coming at 7 (unlikely), and that's just to have respectable season, we're not even saying a very good one.

I would disagree, I think there are only a few teams in Europe who would beat Munster more then 5/10 times. The scrum is the only huge concern imo. The rest of the team is very solid.
But Northampton are probably one of the few teams that are better.

thomond2006 · 29-10-2011 04:04PM

Northampton (18) 44
Tries: May 2, Artemyev 2, Ashton 2 Cons: Lamb 3, Myler Pens: Lamb 2

Newcastle (12) 15
Pens: Gopperth 4 Drop-goal: Gopperth

Vasily keeps on scoring tries! That's 6 from 3 appearances (in 3 weeks)

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 01:37PM

pajunior wrote: »

I would disagree, I think there are only a few teams in Europe who would beat Munster more then 5/10 times. The scrum is the only huge concern imo. The rest of the team is very solid.
But Northampton are probably one of the few teams that are better.

I admire the confidence but our entire set-piece is shaky, Varley and Fogs aren't good enough throwers so the lineout is only ok. Our backrow is fairly ordinary, imo. Our centres are downright depressing at the minute too. Mafi just does the same thing every week and Barnes still has a long way to go.

GerM · 30-10-2011 02:57PM

Munster should never have been looking at a centre once Wallace was injured, for me. A quality, ball carrying back row would be worth his weight in gold right now. A back row of AN Other, POM and Coughlan would be a very capable unit and POM would learn a lot from playing alongside a quality flanker. If the forwards can't get the team on the front foot, a player like Chambers will never be able to shine to his full extent. He's quick and strong with good offloading in an outside channel. Give him a defence on the back foot and he'll make hay. Would still love to see Keatley get a chance at 12. Given that DK selected him there for the Irish side against Connacht, I expect to see it at some point this season.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 03:20PM

GerM wrote: »

Munster should never have been looking at a centre once Wallace was injured, for me. A quality, ball carrying back row would be worth his weight in gold right now. A back row of AN Other, POM and Coughlan would be a very capable unit and POM would learn a lot from playing alongside a quality flanker. If the forwards can't get the team on the front foot, a player like Chambers will never be able to shine to his full extent. He's quick and strong with good offloading in an outside channel. Give him a defence on the back foot and he'll make hay. Would still love to see Keatley get a chance at 12. Given that DK selected him there for the Irish side against Connacht, I expect to see it at some point this season.

POM seems to get an injury "that definitely isn't concussion"* every game.

Wrt to our backs, Mafi or Chambers won't make a bit of difference if we keep the lateral crap going. I don't know if the blame lies with Holland or McGahan but someone has to answer for it.

*looks an awful lot like concussion.

profitius · 30-10-2011 03:31PM

I thought Munster played alright on friday from a players point of view. They were going ok with ball in hand but they're continuing to just move the ball from side to side in what we can only presume are orders to do it. Maybe theres a posibility that they treated the match like a training exercise ahead of the Leinster match? Going on past evidence you'd say no but the last 2 games against Leinster Munster cut out the dumb rugby and made the games into tight contests.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

POM seems to get an injury "that definitely isn't concussion"* every game.

Wrt to our backs, Mafi or Chambers won't make a bit of difference if we keep the lateral crap going. I don't know if the blame lies with Holland or McGahan but someone has to answer for it.

*looks an awful lot like concussion.

POM went flying into the ruck with his head kamakaze style. Its already looking like he could have a short career. He is an intelligent player but seems to lose his cool easily. I'd love to see him play against Leinster but if he got concussed then they should drop him for his own sake.

Podge_irl · 30-10-2011 03:33PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Northampton (18) 44
Tries: May 2, Artemyev 2, Ashton 2 Cons: Lamb 3, Myler Pens: Lamb 2

Newcastle (12) 15
Pens: Gopperth 4 Drop-goal: Gopperth

Vasily keeps on scoring tries! That's 6 from 3 appearances (in 3 weeks)

Jaysus, Artemyev is doing well for himself there.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 03:34PM

profitius wrote: »

I thought Munster played alright on friday from a players point of view. They were going ok with ball in hand but they're continuing to just move the ball from side to side in what we can only presume are orders to do it. Maybe theres a posibility that they treated the match like a training exercise ahead of the Leinster match? Going on past evidence you'd say no but the last 2 games against Leinster Munster cut out the dumb rugby and made the games into tight contests.

POM went flying into the ruck with his head kamakaze style. Its already looking like he could have a short career. He is an intelligent player but seems to lose his cool easily. I'd love to see him play against Leinster but if he got concussed then they should drop him for his own sake.

It's hard to know what Munster are trying to achieve any more, are we genuinely a team in transition or are we papering over the cracks, why are guys like Fogs still near the team etc. POM has to cop on, for his own health as well as anything.

I don't think next's week game is the be-all and end-all, we need to beat the Saints and right now I'm not sure that's something we can do.

porterbelly · 30-10-2011 03:43PM

profitius wrote: »

I thought Munster played alright on friday from a players point of view. They were going ok with ball in hand but they're continuing to just move the ball from side to side in what we can only presume are orders to do it. Maybe theres a posibility that they treated the match like a training exercise ahead of the Leinster match? Going on past evidence you'd say no but the last 2 games against Leinster Munster cut out the dumb rugby and made the games into tight contests.

POM went flying into the ruck with his head kamakaze style. Its already looking like he could have a short career. He is an intelligent player but seems to lose his cool easily. I'd love to see him play against Leinster but if he got concussed then they should drop him for his own sake.

I'd agree with that. Seems to be trying to be the hero or something. He needs to calm down and engage his brain a bit or he'll get a serious injury. He's already had to go off in a couple of games early

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 03:49PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Jaysus, Artemyev is doing well for himself there.

He's doing really well, kinda glad he ended up going back to Russia though, even though Ireland can always use try scorers.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 30-10-2011 04:04PM

Has anyone got an idea what the situation is going to be next season with regard to props

I believe that WDP Horan Hurley Hayes and Borlase are all out of contract at the end of this season

Hayes is be old enough that it would be a joke to give him another season after this one

Borlase seems to be a joke in general in my opinion and the option on his contract should not be taken up

Horan is average to good and 34 and getting on but should be good for another season or two

WDP is also average to good but that is not good enough for a NIQ the search should start now for a top class NIQ replacement

Hurley is average and at 26 should have a lot more than 36 caps if he is going to push on. That said I don't see anyone younger ready to get past him in the pecking order. I see no option but to renew his contract really.

CatFromHue · 30-10-2011 04:14PM

Isn't next season the first where the provinces have to reduce the NIQ players? If so that's going to influence the decision on Du Preez.

shuffol · 30-10-2011 04:35PM

I'd be surprised if Munster signed another top NIQ prop seeing as they already have Botha to help lock the scrum, Money better spent elsewhere, as was said above a top backrow would go a long way. Maybe sign a decent project player at LH or lure one of the talented youngsters from the other provinces down with the promise of starting HC games, someone like Mcgrath or Mcallister.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 04:37PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Has anyone got an idea what the situation is going to be next season with regard to props

I believe that WDP Horan Hurley Hayes and Borlase are all out of contract at the end of this season

Hayes is be old enough that it would be a joke to give him another season after this one

Borlase seems to be a joke in general in my opinion and the option on his contract should not be taken up

Horan is average to good and 34 and getting on but should be good for another season or two

WDP is also average to good but that is not good enough for a NIQ the search should start now for a top class NIQ replacement

Hurley is average and at 26 should have a lot more than 36 caps if he is going to push on. That said I don't see anyone younger ready to get past him in the pecking order. I see no option but to renew his contract really.

Darragh Hurley is too injury prone, I genuinely think he could be an amazing player but he's just not physically able for pro rugby. Maybe a move away would help him but Munster can't rely on him. I'm not going to join the critics of Borlase until I've seen him enjoy a long run of games, you can't tell anything about a prop until you've seen a lot of them.

Of the other, young-ish props, I really think Munster should look at Kilcoyne and Cotter, or if we could farm them out to Division 1 in England for a season or something.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 04:38PM

shuffol wrote: »

I'd be surprised if Munster signed another top NIQ prop seeing as they already have Botha to help lock the scrum, Money better spent elsewhere, as was said above a top backrow would go a long way. Maybe sign a decent project player at LH or lure one of the talented youngsters from the other provinces down with the promise of starting HC games, someone like Mcgrath or Mcallister.

McGrath has to be weighing up his options alright, Healy could keep him out of the team for the next decade, or longer, Healy is scarily young.

thomond2006 · 30-10-2011 04:56PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Has anyone got an idea what the situation is going to be next season with regard to props

I believe that WDP Horan Hurley Hayes and Borlase are all out of contract at the end of this season

Hayes is be old enough that it would be a joke to give him another season after this one

Borlase seems to be a joke in general in my opinion and the option on his contract should not be taken up

Horan is average to good and 34 and getting on but should be good for another season or two

WDP is also average to good but that is not good enough for a NIQ the search should start now for a top class NIQ replacement

Hurley is average and at 26 should have a lot more than 36 caps if he is going to push on. That said I don't see anyone younger ready to get past him in the pecking order. I see no option but to renew his contract really.

I reckon the academy props will be given a go next season. Hayes, Borlase and WDP will all be gone. WDP has been decent in recent weeks but he'll be let go due to the NIQ cull (same reason why Warwick was only offered a 1 year deal I'd say).

If Cotter is destroying opposition scrums every week in the AIL, surely he should be looked at seriously?

Our young props have been unlucky with injury, both Darragh Hurley and Dave Ryan looked decent at LH but couldn't stop getting hurt.

shuffol · 30-10-2011 05:07PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

McGrath has to be weighing up his options alright, Healy could keep him out of the team for the next decade, or longer, Healy is scarily young.

Leinster are churning out waves of very promising props at the minute, some of them will have to move on to further their careers although they've another couple of years to go before they'll be ready for the first team.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 05:12PM

shuffol wrote: »

Leinster are churning out waves of very promising props at the minute, some of them will have to move on to further their careers although they've another couple of years to go before they'll be ready for the first team.

We've a few very good young props, guys like Considine, too but none ready for ML, McGrath seems to be.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 05:16PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I reckon the academy props will be given a go next season. Hayes, Borlase and WDP will all be gone. WDP has been decent in recent weeks but he'll be let go due to the NIQ cull (same reason why Warwick was only offered a 1 year deal I'd say).

If Cotter is destroying opposition scrums every week in the AIL, surely he should be looked at seriously?

Our young props have been unlucky with injury, both Darragh Hurley and Dave Ryan looked decent at LH but couldn't stop getting hurt.

I can only assume Cotter is lacking fitness or handling for ML level, I genuinely don't think Archer is better than him as a scrummager from what I've seen from both. Tbf, I haven't seen so much of Cotter to be certain eitherway.

Fireball07 · 30-10-2011 06:18PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

We've a few very good young props, guys like Considine, too but none ready for ML, McGrath seems to be.

Is that Jake Considine, yeah?

The thing about signing another back row is that it will further hinder the development of players like TOD, Butler, etc. I know McGahan isn't playing them much now, but he really should be. They might never be good enough but they should at least be given a chance. Ryan, Ruddock & McLaughlin were all given a chance at Leinster.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 30-10-2011 06:40PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I can only assume Cotter is lacking fitness or handling for ML level, I genuinely don't think Archer is better than him as a scrummager from what I've seen from both. Tbf, I haven't seen so much of Cotter to be certain eitherway.

Archer plays for Cork Con, Cotter doesn't...

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 06:42PM

Fireball07 wrote: »

Is that Jake Considine, yeah?

The thing about signing another back row is that it will further hinder the development of players like TOD, Butler, etc. I know McGahan isn't playing them much now, but he really should be. They might never be good enough but they should at least be given a chance. Ryan, Ruddock & McLaughlin were all given a chance at Leinster.

POM is getting a chance because he's good enough. McGahan or Foley mustn't think the others are good enough yet, or will ever be good enough.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 06:52PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Archer plays for Cork Con, Cotter doesn't...

Do you think we still run the professional side the way we ran the amateur one? Maybe, I genuinely don't think Archer is good enough but I doubt it's down to the fact that he's from Con.

ormond lad · 30-10-2011 07:03PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Do you think we still run the professional side the way we ran the amateur one? Maybe, I genuinely don't think Archer is good enough but I doubt it's down to the fact that he's from Con.

Yes, we have a very amatuer way of doing things. Many people involved in the development of young players IMO, still believe that we will be fine if we only pick players from con, garryowen, shannon and the big schools especially rockwell, CBC and PBC.
Not many lads from limerick are not being picked for provincial squads despite the clubs in limerick having done well at u17/19s level.
u/age squads are being picked because of where you are from/who you know instead of talent on the pitch. Take this years youths, some lads were picked because of the club they were from and better options were let go. Whole system of how we develop players must change if we are to do anything at pro level in the future

CiaranMT · 30-10-2011 07:07PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Archer plays for Cork Con, Cotter doesn't...

Cotter plays for Munsters, whose scrum was very much on top in the semi last season, had the beating of the Con front-row. Fogs and Toasterhead were playing that day.

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 07:14PM

ormond lad wrote: »

Yes, we have a very amatuer way of doing things. Many people involved in the development of young players IMO, still believe that we will be fine if we only pick players from con, garryowen, shannon and the big schools especially rockwell, CBC and PBC.
Not many lads from limerick are not being picked for provincial squads despite the clubs in limerick having done well at u17/19s level.
u/age squads are being picked because of where you are from/who you know instead of talent on the pitch. Take this years youths, some lads were picked because of the club they were from and better options were let go. Whole system of how we develop players must change if we are to do anything at pro level in the future

I know that happens but at pro level? Would Cotter get overlooked because of where he's from?

Edit, I know the bigger schools generally try and "sign" the better youth players. There's one or two gone from Nessans to Munchins this year (as usual).

Cpt_Blackbeard · 30-10-2011 07:17PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Do you think we still run the professional side the way we ran the amateur one? Maybe, I genuinely don't think Archer is good enough but I doubt it's down to the fact that he's from Con.

Con are either poaching every semi-decent young player or Con players are getting some sort of a preference over everyone else. It could well be a mix of the two though. If you look at the squad, I'd guess that ~80/90% of the players who will never be up to HC standard play with Con.

ormond lad · 30-10-2011 07:21PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I know that happens but at pro level? Would Cotter get overlooked because of where he's from?

Edit, I know the bigger schools generally try and "sign" the better youth players. There's one or two gone from Nessans to Munchins this year (as usual).

I wouldnt be surprised if it does at pro level
The A schools always take a few youths who are in and around the youths squad. 2 or 3 from the east munster 17s that comprehensively won their 3 regional games last feb couldnt go forward to munster youths in the summer as rockwell had "signed" them up after watching them in the games

Amazotheamazing · 30-10-2011 10:34PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Con are either poaching every semi-decent young player or Con players are getting some sort of a preference over everyone else. It could well be a mix of the two though. If you look at the squad, I'd guess that ~80/90% of the players who will never be up to HC standard play with Con.

It does seem strange alright but there's less top level teams in Cork I guess than in Limerick so the players are going to gravitate to the best club.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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