British MPs to vote on EU Referndum to leave (No referendum on Europe happening)

getz · 25-10-2011 12:16PM

lawhec wrote: »

I'm a nordie, so the Republic's debt burden isn't directly affected on myself. Besides, I'm not sure how the EU is directly responsible for the debt burden the Irish Republic now has - I'd lay the blame a lot more firmly on politician's in the Dail and too many people in the country trying to live beyond their means.

you are also right in parts,but the problem was that in the boom years the currency permitted huge capital flows from germany and other surplus countries,to spain,portugal,greece and ireland,these imbalances conventional wisdom has it was unhealthy[we all know,to many sweets make you sick],if ireland had been outside the euro,ireland would enjoy a weeker currency,that would boost exports,hence growth, the problem now is that ireland is loosing its young,based on a report by ESRI between april 2010 to april 2012 it was estimated that a net of 100,000 people have left ireland, but yes a big part of the debt is down to the politicians,but not all.

Richard · 25-10-2011 04:00PM

getz wrote: »

http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=134.65.6.0

That's not an agreement made between the UK and NAFTA, that's disgraced media tycoon, Conrad Black, expressing his views that the UK should leave the EU and join NAFTA. He's currently in prison for fraud.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Black

lawhec · 25-10-2011 07:34PM

getz wrote: »

you are also right in parts,but the problem was that in the boom years the currency permitted huge capital flows from germany and other surplus countries,to spain,portugal,greece and ireland,these imbalances conventional wisdom has it was unhealthy[we all know,to many sweets make you sick],if ireland had been outside the euro,ireland would enjoy a weeker currency,that would boost exports,hence growth, the problem now is that ireland is loosing its young,based on a report by ESRI between april 2010 to april 2012 it was estimated that a net of 100,000 people have left ireland, but yes a big part of the debt is down to the politicians,but not all.

Did anyone force Ireland to join the Euro? I don't remember a gun being put to anyones head over it. Trying to blame the EU is a bit of a scapegoat. I remember a decade ago of some people warning that Ireland joining the EU could overheat the economy and lead to a big downturn in the future which I suppose is what happened. Too many wanted to get rich quick.

Also a "weak" currency is a double edged sword, you can't sustain a weak currency forever without manipulating it which produces another house of cards. Also while a weak currency can be healthy for exports provided those exports consist of native materials, it makes imports on average more expensive. Therefore it forces industry to try and limit imported materials for production. On the flip side, a strong currency also has problems.

getz · 26-10-2011 07:11AM

Richard wrote: »

That's not an agreement made between the UK and NAFTA, that's disgraced media tycoon, Conrad Black, expressing his views that the UK should leave the EU and join NAFTA. He's currently in prison for fraud.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Black

try another one,www.thunderlake.com/uk_nafta1.html quote;following recept on november 18 1999 of a senate finance committee request, the US international trade commission [USITC] instituted an investigation on ;the impact on the US economy of including the UK in a freetrade arrangement with the US,canada and mexico,this week of march 15 2000,a team of officials from the USITE met UK officials from the cabinate office and the foreign office,as well as the TUC and the CBI.

getz · 26-10-2011 07:20AM

lawhec wrote: »

Did anyone force Ireland to join the Euro? I don't remember a gun being put to anyones head over it. Trying to blame the EU is a bit of a scapegoat. I remember a decade ago of some people warning that Ireland joining the EU could overheat the economy and lead to a big downturn in the future which I suppose is what happened. Too many wanted to get rich quick.

Also a "weak" currency is a double edged sword, you can't sustain a weak currency forever without manipulating it which produces another house of cards. Also while a weak currency can be healthy for exports provided those exports consist of native materials, it makes imports on average more expensive. Therefore it forces industry to try and limit imported materials for production. On the flip side, a strong currency also has problems.

yes you are correct in many ways in what you are saying about ireland,but in ireland case, most exports are in farming ,and a large economy on tourism,none of which has to depend on importing raw materials

Leftist · 26-10-2011 08:17AM

How can we say the EU has been good for Ireland

I love this place. Really is painfully cringeworthy at times but in an Alan Partridge kind of way.

Do you have any idea how much assistance Irish dairy industry gets from EU subsidiaries for instance? without it we wouldn't compete with nz or USA on the global market.

But keep going. Really.

getz · 26-10-2011 08:59AM

Leftist wrote: »

How can we say the EU has been good for Ireland

I love this place. Really is painfully cringeworthy at times but in an Alan Partridge kind of way.

Do you have any idea how much assistance Irish dairy industry gets from EU subsidiaries for instance? without it we wouldn't compete with nz or USA on the global market.

But keep going. Really.

just where does this money come from in the first place ? i will give you a idea ,the UK gives the EU £65 billion per year,and gets back £5.2 billion, only germany put more in and takes less out,

Richard · 26-10-2011 09:25AM

getz wrote: »

try another one,www.thunderlake.com/uk_nafta1.html quote;following recept on november 18 1999 of a senate finance committee request, the US international trade commission [USITC] instituted an investigation on ;the impact on the US economy of including the UK in a freetrade arrangement with the US,canada and mexico,this week of march 15 2000,a team of officials from the USITE met UK officials from the cabinate office and the foreign office,as well as the TUC and the CBI.

There may have been these exploratory talks over 10 years ago, but these came to nothing, and these are not an agreement to join NAFTA in the event of the EU going "tits up"'as you suggested.

Leftist · 26-10-2011 09:27AM

getz wrote: »

just where does this money come from in the first place ? i will give you a idea ,the UK gives the EU £65 billion per year,and gets back £5.2 billion, only germany put more in and takes less out,

And?

getz · 26-10-2011 10:06AM

Richard wrote: »

There may have been these exploratory talks over 10 years ago, but these came to nothing, and these are not an agreement to join NAFTA in the event of the EU going "tits up"'as you suggested.

now you are nit picking,the UK and NAFTA have been working and putting into place for situation where, if the UK left the EU, it could if it applied join NAFTA, everything is in place,that is why every year the same argument props up,

LandL84 · 26-10-2011 10:43AM

getz wrote: »

how can you say that the EU has been good for you ?you do realize that ireland has ended up with debts that you will be unable to pay back,and the burden will be on irelands next generation.,on a lighter note david cameron has been involved in a furious row with french president nicolas sarkozy who said he was sick of the UK offering advice on the euro,and now germany is also upset with sarkosy,its all happening.

Do you really think life in Ireland was better 40 years ago before the country joined EU??

EU had enormous positive impact on Ireland's economy, education, environment etc.

For instance:
Most experts agree that Ireland’s membership of the European Union has greatly facilitated countries move from an agricultural based economy to one driven by hi-tech industry and global exports.

Irish students have more opportunities than ever before to broaden their horizons and get the qualifications needed for top jobs thanks to the European Union. Funding from the European Union over the past three decades has helped improve education standards in Ireland.

Ireland’s environment needed improving almost as much as its economy when country joined the EEC in 1973 and tough EU rules meant Ireland have had to act on water pollution, waste disposal, air quality, energy emissions and preservation of natural habitats.

Today every Irish citizen has the right to live, work, study or retire in another EU country. And the Single Market has made it both affordable and safe. Being in the eurozone has made travelling and doing business abroad even easier.
Foreign holidays were far too expensive for most families and those that did go abroad were most likely parents leaving the country to find work to provide for their loved ones back home. Even flights to nearest neighbour, Britain, cost hundreds of pounds and studying abroad was a luxury only the very wealthy could afford.
Travelling across the world is cheaper than ever before.

And there's much more..

Certainly, noone is happy about eurocrisis, recession, but nothing works perfectly forever. There's always ups and downs in any system.

getz · 26-10-2011 11:08AM

LandL84 wrote: »

Do you really think life in Ireland was better 40 years ago before the country joined EU??

EU had enormous positive impact on Ireland's economy, education, environment etc.

For instance:
Most experts agree that Ireland’s membership of the European Union has greatly facilitated countries move from an agricultural based economy to one driven by hi-tech industry and global exports.

Irish students have more opportunities than ever before to broaden their horizons and get the qualifications needed for top jobs thanks to the European Union. Funding from the European Union over the past three decades has helped improve education standards in Ireland.

Ireland’s environment needed improving almost as much as its economy when country joined the EEC in 1973 and tough EU rules meant Ireland have had to act on water pollution, waste disposal, air quality, energy emissions and preservation of natural habitats.

Today every Irish citizen has the right to live, work, study or retire in another EU country. And the Single Market has made it both affordable and safe. Being in the eurozone has made travelling and doing business abroad even easier.
Foreign holidays were far too expensive for most families and those that did go abroad were most likely parents leaving the country to find work to provide for their loved ones back home. Even flights to nearest neighbour, Britain, cost hundreds of pounds and studying abroad was a luxury only the very wealthy could afford.
Travelling across the world is cheaper than ever before.

And there's much more..

Certainly, noone is happy about eurocrisis, recession, but nothing works perfectly forever. There's always ups and downs in any system.

thats crazy do you think that if you had not joined the EU you would still be living like you did in 1973 ? very few in europe in those days went overseas, billy butlins was the biggest english destination, joining the EU was ok ,when it was the common market,it started to go bad when it got political,the real mess came with the introduction of the euro,if everyone had stayed on their own currency,the euro zone countries would not be in this mess,

LandL84 · 26-10-2011 11:32AM

getz wrote: »

thats crazy do you think that if you had not joined the EU you would still be living like you did in 1973 ? very few in europe in those days went overseas, billy butlins was the biggest english destination, joining the EU was ok ,when it was the common market,it started to go bad when it got political,the real mess came with the introduction of the euro,if everyone had stayed on their own currency,the euro zone countries would not be in this mess,

Noone can tell now how the life in Ireland or other EU country could've turn out if the countries have never joined the EU. Trying to guess what 'could have been if..' is only creating a reality of your own fabrication.

LondonIrish90 · 26-10-2011 12:12PM

Leftist wrote: »

And?

Ah, so thats how it is. As long as your dairy industry is being subsidised then everyone else who is losing out massively should toe the line?

Why am I as a British taxpayer forced to pay for your cheesemakers? It is issued such as this which cause discontent among British voters. It is nothing to do with nationalism or anything of the sort. I cannot emphasize this point enough. It is these practical issues which are reported almost daily in the media and the general public cannot comprehend why we in times of such financial difficulty we are paying more and more to foreign nations all around the union with absolutely nothing coming back to us. It really is shocking and criminal and its nothing about trying to wave a union flag in the face of Brussells

ejmaztec · 26-10-2011 12:18PM

getz wrote: »

thats crazy do you think that if you had not joined the EU you would still be living like you did in 1973 ? very few in europe in those days went overseas, billy butlins was the biggest english destination, joining the EU was ok ,when it was the common market,it started to go bad when it got political,the real mess came with the introduction of the euro,if everyone had stayed on their own currency,the euro zone countries would not be in this mess,

The current situation would have been an awful lot better had all EU members joined the Euro. The situation became messy when they didn't.

getz · 26-10-2011 12:22PM

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Ah, so thats how it is. As long as your dairy industry is being subsidised then everyone else who is losing out massively should toe the line?

Why am I as a British taxpayer forced to pay for your cheesemakers? It is issued such as this which cause discontent among British voters. It is nothing to do with nationalism or anything of the sort. I cannot emphasize this point enough. It is these practical issues which are reported almost daily in the media and the general public cannot comprehend why we in times of such financial difficulty we are paying more and more to foreign nations all around the union with absolutely nothing coming back to us. It really is shocking and criminal and its nothing about trying to wave a union flag in the face of Brussells

the euro zone to me just sounds like the titanic,the band still playing as the ship goes down,

pajunior · 26-10-2011 12:28PM

getz wrote: »

yes you are correct in many ways in what you are saying about ireland,but in ireland case, most exports are in farming ,and a large economy on tourism,none of which has to depend on importing raw materials

That is in-correct. Both IT and pharmaceuticals are both bigger then agriculture. I would hazard a guess that the Chemical industry might also be bigger.

getz · 26-10-2011 12:50PM

pajunior wrote: »

That is in-correct. Both IT and pharmaceuticals are both bigger then agriculture. I would hazard a guess that the Chemical industry might also be bigger.

i apologize people leaving ireland to get work is now the biggest export,

ejmaztec · 26-10-2011 12:58PM

getz wrote: »

i apologize people leaving ireland to get work is now the biggest export,

It always has been.

getz · 26-10-2011 01:09PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It always has been.

over a 1000 a week to the UK, good for them,its what my great grandaddy did

Richard · 26-10-2011 01:14PM

getz wrote: »

now you are nit picking,the UK and NAFTA have been working and putting into place for situation where, if the UK left the EU, it could if it applied join NAFTA, everything is in place,that is why every year the same argument props up,

Look, I'm not being awkward, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that this is true!

Some people obviously want the UK in NAFTA, but that is a different thing.

Leftist · 26-10-2011 03:22PM

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Ah, so thats how it is. As long as your dairy industry is being subsidised then everyone else who is losing out massively should toe the line?

Why am I as a British taxpayer forced to pay for your cheesemakers? It is issued such as this which cause discontent among British voters. It is nothing to do with nationalism or anything of the sort. I cannot emphasize this point enough. It is these practical issues which are reported almost daily in the media and the general public cannot comprehend why we in times of such financial difficulty we are paying more and more to foreign nations all around the union with absolutely nothing coming back to us. It really is shocking and criminal and its nothing about trying to wave a union flag in the face of Brussells

The whole idea of it, in principal, is working together as a union though.

If the english are bitter about their taxes going to pay for their neighbour's upkeep, then technically you could say the same about taxes from London going to pay for schools, hospitals etc in remote places in england (yorkshire) or complete poverty toilets (liverpool).

Technically you are correct but to break it down in simple terms if this was the case nobody should pay taxes to help anyone else or perhaps we should just create city states and leave the poorer corners of states or europe to rot.

(if as you say of course, that it is not a case of nationalism).

DublinWriter · 26-10-2011 03:26PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

The current situation would have been an awful lot better had all EU members joined the Euro. The situation became messy when they didn't.

Obviously you're a little too young to remember the UK's Sterling crisis in 1992?

ejmaztec · 26-10-2011 03:30PM

Leftist wrote: »

The whole idea of it, in principal, is working together as a union though.

If the english are bitter about their taxes going to pay for their neighbour's upkeep, then technically you could say the same about taxes from London going to pay for schools, hospitals etc in remote places in england (yorkshire) or complete poverty toilets (liverpool).

Technically you are correct but to break it down in simple terms if this was the case nobody should pay taxes to help anyone else or perhaps we should just create city states and leave the poorer corners of states or europe to rot.

(if as you say of course, that it is not a case of nationalism).

Money has come out of the EU kitty for disadvantaged areas in the UK, not to mention other EU funded UK projects, so it's not all one-way traffic. Some people in the UK don't seem to be aware of this, and think that the rest of the EU is bleeding it dry.

Leftist · 26-10-2011 03:36PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Money has come out of the EU kitty for disadvantaged areas in the UK, not to mention other EU funded UK projects, so it's not all one-way traffic. Some people in the UK don't seem to be aware of this, and think that the rest of the EU is bleeding it dry.

They probably are investing much more than recieving. Same with Germany or France.
The whole idea is to drag everyone up to the same level to operate as a functioning trade union and avoid the old europe of three superpowers manipulating every other state (look how that turned out, although technically it can be argued that some politicians in France/Germany want to steer it that way subtly as possible but not all of them).

We benefit more from it than the investors but they benefit through stability (arf what's that!).

Unfortunetly tying us all together means if someone of us start to drown we are all in trouble, But it's not the EU's fault for the recession or the crash of 08. Anyone who says the EU is ripping us off with debt needs to study the behaviour of Fianna Fail and there they will seek the reason and responsibility.

ejmaztec · 26-10-2011 03:45PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

Obviously you're a little too young to remember the UK's Sterling crisis in 1992?

That was self-inflicted by the Tories, and happened long before the Euro came in. Had the UK (and all of the EU member states) joined the Euro, the Eurozone policies of the Germans and French might well have been tamed, and left countries like Ireland only half in the sh1t instead of up to the neck in it.

Batsy · 26-10-2011 05:46PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Leaving the EU would be a disaster for the UK

Ten years ago we were told that not joining the euro would be a disaster for the UK.

Instead it was a disaster for those who DID join it.

getz · 27-10-2011 11:20AM

Richard wrote: »

Look, I'm not being awkward, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that this is true!

Some people obviously want the UK in NAFTA, but that is a different thing.

i just more than some people,it is on record that on the week of march 15th 2000,that a team of officials from USITE met with the british goverment ,the cabinate office and the foreign office,the talks were based on two ;hypothetical models; which would see britain either joining NAFTA as a member of the EU, or abandoning the EU to join NAFTA,as far as i can see the results of those talks have not been made public,believe me there is no smoke without fire,

LondonIrish90 · 27-10-2011 11:56AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Money has come out of the EU kitty for disadvantaged areas in the UK, not to mention other EU funded UK projects, so it's not all one-way traffic. Some people in the UK don't seem to be aware of this, and think that the rest of the EU is bleeding it dry.

That completely misses the point. I'm not disputing that the EU has helped the UK with some grants. However, these grants fall short of the total Britain has contributed to the EU by a huge distance. So, to say the EU have helped disadvantaged people in Britain is meaningless. That was Britain's own money, and had it not been for this ridiculous union we could have helped far more of our own disadvantaged, rather than those disadvantaged in Romania, Bulgaria or elsewhere. I certainly know where I would prefer my contributions to be going, and its not Eastern Europe.

So, yes, the EU in these times of massive financial difficulty really is bleeding us dry, no matter how much you go on about the nice roads they built us with our own money.

LondonIrish90 · 27-10-2011 12:05PM

Leftist wrote: »

The whole idea of it, in principal, is working together as a union though.

If the english are bitter about their taxes going to pay for their neighbour's upkeep, then technically you could say the same about taxes from London going to pay for schools, hospitals etc in remote places in england (yorkshire) or complete poverty toilets (liverpool).

That is the major problem. How can we continue to work as a union when more and more people do not feel united? I dont feel united with them and nor do I want to. I will not suddenly change my outlook and my identity because some foreign men on the European mainland think it would be to their advantage (because thats what this is, all nations wanting the best for themselves) if I did so?

You cannot possibly compare the connection between London, Yorkshire and Liverpool with the relationship between Britain, Portugal and Poland for example. Simply because the later of a social and historical level has very weak links in comparison.

Do you as an Irishman feel the same connection with the British, the French, the Poles, the Spanish, the Germans etc as you do with fellow countrymen? Do you united under the same language, history, struggles, way of life, flag etc? Do you feel sufficiently united to pay their way in the world as a nation should they fall to their knees?

I think the answer to these questions is probably no, but fair play to you if it isn't. Moreover, the average man on the street in Britain, Germany, France, Ireland etc doesn't feel this unity that they are supposed to. They want to look after their own state (as humans are programmed to) and not the state of another man.

British MPs to vote on EU Referndum to leave (No referendum on Europe happening)

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