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Growing your own firewood

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    Have you considered a log batch boiler or log batch gasification boiler?


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    fodda wrote: »
    Have you considered a log batch boiler or log batch gasification boiler?

    Yes I have and it really boils:D down to one thing, I cant afford any investment over about 1000 including plumbing. I have about 10 things remaining in my house that need doing first, such as kitchen units, additional insulation, fences and gates, driveway, 4 windows need replacing, I could borrow but wont, I am paying enough back in mortgages and personal loans as it is. Insulation is something you can do one roll at a time, similarly you can replace your windows one at a time, can't install a boiler in stages though
    A willow plantation would cost very little which is why I was considering it, I cant afford a pension which is why I want to plant trees, I know I wont be cold in my old age. As I already have a range, I would hope to grow fuel that works in that, rather than in something that I might or might not be able to afford in a few years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    I have just had a thought, having taken a second look at wood gasification boilers and decided I cant afford them, My solid fuel range produces a huge amount of hot water, as it on all day during the winter a lot of the excess goes out through an expansion tank which then dumps it outside, would one of the accumulator tanks which are used with the Wood gas boilers work in a similar way with my range storing the excess heat allowing me to have time controlled central heating in the rest of the house i.e. mornings, whilst keeping the main living area warm all day with the range? Should work in theory


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I possibly should but a) I can't afford an archeologist, b) It is not marked on any map as a monument c)There is no folklore attached to it so the likelihood is that it was just used by local farmers for either sand, stone or clay d) it isnt safe for tractors or kids
    By levelling it I can possibly find out what it was used for and find out if it can be economically exploited by yours truly
    pm me where the pit is, if you like, and I'll see what I can dig up (:p) for you on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    I have just had a thought, having taken a second look at wood gasification boilers and decided I cant afford them, My solid fuel range produces a huge amount of hot water, as it on all day during the winter a lot of the excess goes out through an expansion tank which then dumps it outside, would one of the accumulator tanks which are used with the Wood gas boilers work in a similar way with my range storing the excess heat allowing me to have time controlled central heating in the rest of the house i.e. mornings, whilst keeping the main living area warm all day with the range? Should work in theory

    Yes you can but it's not quite that simple. The tanks work as a battery holding all the heat from several sources if you like and are usually fed directly from the appliance, then fed back into the house when needed.

    As you want it you are feeding it as a dump load when the heating isnt on so you will need some extra plumbing with valves to transfer the heat or what i prefer is a good old fashioned manual valve to switch over the heat but i dont know if that would fit any plumbing regulations:)

    The bigger the tank the better and you need extra insulation on it, at least 12"


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Granted that willow is not the best firewood in the world, but I burn a fair bit of it in the stove. Once it's dry, it's grand for a bit of quick heat.
    Isn't it a source of charcoal btw?


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    fodda wrote: »
    Yes you can but it's not quite that simple. The tanks work as a battery holding all the heat from several sources if you like and are usually fed directly from the appliance, then fed back into the house when needed.

    As you want it you are feeding it as a dump load when the heating isnt on so you will need some extra plumbing with valves to transfer the heat or what i prefer is a good old fashioned manual valve to switch over the heat but i dont know if that would fit any plumbing regulations:)

    The bigger the tank the better and you need extra insulation on it, at least 12"

    It doesnt have to be as a dump load for extra hot water, I am not against the idea of running everthing off the accumlator tank.
    Does the accumulator tank replace my hot water cylinder or does the hot water cylinder operate in conjunction with it? where do you normally store the tank does it have to be near the source like the hot water cylinder or can it be outside or up in the Attic? How does it mate up with the OFCH?

    Sorry for all the questions but I have been looking for an affordable solution for my heating issues for a long time


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    No it doesnt replace your hot water tank as that is heated by a coil via the central heating i assume.

    Just measure how much hot water you are basically dumping each day and that should give you an idea of how much hot water you need storing and then go for a larger sized tank than what you need.

    But if you do not use this hot water, after a day or 2 you will be back to the same situation as you are now.

    I am no expert or a plumber but that's how i think it works.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    It doesnt have to be as a dump load for extra hot water, I am not against the idea of running everthing off the accumlator tank.
    Does the accumulator tank replace my hot water cylinder or does the hot water cylinder operate in conjunction with it? where do you normally store the tank does it have to be near the source like the hot water cylinder or can it be outside or up in the Attic? How does it mate up with the OFCH?

    Sorry for all the questions but I have been looking for an affordable solution for my heating issues for a long time

    My gasifier has a buffer tank - 1500 litres. Separate hot water tank in hot press which is heated by water from the buffer tank (a coil runs through the hot water tank to heat the water in it).

    Tank is in the garage - it weighs over 1.5 ton when full - so not suitable for upstairs or attic. Also, it is 9ft tall and 4 ft in diameter.

    Water from the buffer tank is pumped into the house when a stat from upstairs/ downstairs or the hot water tank triggers the circulation pump. On entering the house, our heating is split into 3 zones by automatic valves which are controlled by the stats. So, for example, if the hot water tank gets cold, the stat triggers the pump on the buffer tank and the automatic valve for the domestic hot water and this heats up the tank. If downstairs gets below the minimum temp on the stat, then it triggers the buffer tank pump and the automatic valve to open and allow heating the downstairs radiators until it reaches the required temp and automatically switches off.

    All 3 zones can be heated at the one time, or just one if we want. We laso have a 3 way timer which controlls all zones. ie. We only heat upstairs when going to bed, downstairs when there and only allow hot water to heat for an hour before the morning shower.

    Hope that explains it a bit.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    fodda wrote: »
    No it doesnt replace your hot water tank as that is heated by a coil via the central heating i assume.

    Just measure how much hot water you are basically dumping each day and that should give you an idea of how much hot water you need storing and then go for a larger sized tank than what you need.

    But if you do not use this hot water, after a day or 2 you will be back to the same situation as you are now.

    I am no expert or a plumber but that's how i think it works.:)

    Thanks for that, My hot water is heated by both the range and the OFCH, the range is not connected to the central heating, which is one of the reasons it creates so much excess hot water, I can calulate easily enough how much hotwater I am dumping.
    My thoughts were that if I was to plumb the accumulator tank directly to the range, all of the hot water would be stored there and released out to the central heating and the hot water as required,
    With the range not only are we producing too much hot water but also the water is far too hot coming out of the taps, I havent checked the temp but on a cold winters day when the fire has been on all day and the central heating kicks in in the evening you could almost make tea directly from the tap. THe accumulator tank should in theory give my thermostatically regulated hot water and central heating or am I completely on the wrong track here:confused: As for using the excess my plan is that the excess will be used in the mornings and perhaps intermittently at night to keep the house relatively warm and to stop things from freezing up


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    Was thinking of something like this

    http://www.boilerstoves.co.uk/boiler-stove-installation-D.html

    I think this might have an advantage over simply plumbing the range directly into the central heating in that the excess heat can be used at another time, in this one the accumulator tank would appear to replace the hot water tank, not too sure about this, if you turn on your heat does this mean you lose your hot water?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    Was thinking of something like this

    http://www.boilerstoves.co.uk/boiler-stove-installation-D.html

    I think this might have an advantage over simply plumbing the range directly into the central heating in that the excess heat can be used at another time, in this one the accumulator tank would appear to replace the hot water tank, not too sure about this, if you turn on your heat does this mean you lose your hot water?

    Ahh i see what you mean. This i would think is just a large hot water tank, which is different than a thermal store which i refer too.

    So your range is banging along 24 hours per day producing heat which has to go somewhere. When the rads go off the heat goes to the hot water tank which closes down at 60oC so the hot water has no where to go, so just cycles around the system.........correct?

    If you have a larger water tank when the temp reaches 60oC the hot water will still cycle unless you use that hot water.

    If you have a thermal store when that temp reaches 95oC the hot water will still cycle if the hot water has not been used.......the larger the thermal store the more hot water can be stored but thermal stores cost more the larger they are. Some house have multiple thermal stores but if you never use the hot water they just store it and slowly loose it into the surroundings.

    Unless you use the heat you are actually wasting fuel.

    The CH will not take heat from the hot water tank if a thermostat has been fitted and the plumbing done correctly to aleviate this event.


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    reilig wrote: »
    Tank is in the garage - it weighs over 1.5 ton when full - so not suitable for upstairs or attic. Also, it is 9ft tall and 4 ft in diameter.

    1500litres might be a bit of overkill for my purposes, but would future proof me for solar panels and a gasification boiler at some stage, I could fit a slimline version in the hotpress replacing the hot water cylinder It could poke its head into the Attic. I am not sure if replacing the cylinder is a good or a bad move, if the better half decides to have a bath is the CH then affected? If I put it in the shed is it then too far away from the heat source causing other issues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    1500litres might be a bit of overkill for my purposes, but would future proof me for solar panels and a gasification boiler at some stage, I could fit a slimline version in the hotpress replacing the hot water cylinder It could poke its head into the Attic. I am not sure if replacing the cylinder is a good or a bad move, if the better half decides to have a bath is the CH then affected? If I put it in the shed is it then too far away from the heat source causing other issues.

    How about one of these


    http://kotly.com/index.php?cPath=29_150

    A vessel within a vessel. ie. Your Domestic Hot Water tank within your buffer tank.

    From 300 to 1000 litres. Could be an ideal solution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    I bought my stuff from Kotly.

    You are missing my point but i probably have'nt explained it properly.

    If you are saving your un-used hot water in a tank and then do not use that hot water........then your boiler/range will just keep cycling your extra hot water around the system into your header tank as it is doing now.......it cant keep storing hot water if you arent using it either through tap or radiator.

    You can store it in multiple tanks but eventually you are going to have to use it.

    You are basically using too much fuel to produce too much heat.

    I do not understand why you want solar panels and a gasification boiler if you are producing far too much hot water which you arent using from your range. All the gasification boiler will do is produce more hot water more efficiently which you arent going to use.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    fodda wrote: »
    I bought my stuff from Kotly.

    You are missing my point but i probably have'nt explained it properly.

    If you are saving your un-used hot water in a tank and then do not use that hot water........then your boiler/range will just keep cycling your extra hot water around the system into your header tank as it is doing now.......it cant keep storing hot water if you arent using it either through tap or radiator.

    You can store it in multiple tanks but eventually you are going to have to use it.

    You are basically using too much fuel to produce too much heat.

    I do not understand why you want solar panels and a gasification boiler if you are producing far too much hot water which you arent using from your range. All the gasification boiler will do is produce more hot water more efficiently which you arent going to use.

    But a buffer tank will mean that you won't have to burn as much fuel in your boiler and range. You can store it and use it instead of lighting the range for periods of the day or night.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    reilig wrote: »
    But a buffer tank will mean that you won't have to burn as much fuel in your boiler and range. You can store it and use it instead of lighting the range for periods of the day or night.

    I know but he origionaly said he has to have his range going all day long and when his hot water tank is full his system cycles into the header tank.............well i think that's what he said:o


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    It is very simple, I get up at 7 in the morning I get the kids their breakfast and i am out the door at eight, my wife gets up at eight gets the kids ready for school and drops the kids to school at 9:00 maybe does a small bit of shopping in the heel of the reel none of us have time to light the fire until about 10:00. If I had an accumulator tank, instead of the OFCH coming on at 6:30 so that we can all have relative comfort when we get up, I just prefer to be able to use the excess hot water that has been generated during the day for this particular period, thus reducing my oil bill. Maybe the fire wouldnt have to be lit until 2 or 3 in the day. As well as that, having done my research it would appear that an Accumulator tank is one of the best ways to marry up a solid fuel system which is vented and a modern OFCH system which is not. Also if My wife is away during the day and the fire doesnt get lit until 7 or 8 in the evening just use the excess hot water that has been there from the night before
    During the very cold spells last year and the year before the heat had to come on in the middle of the night to ensure that pipes and the humans didnt freeze overnight, an accumulator tank allows this to happen without being depdendent on oil. I'm not really prepared to get up at 3 in the morning and reload the fire like someone I know was doing last winter
    My long term aim is no oil and use my own fuel, as i already said I cant afford a log gasification set up at present but maybe i can go half way in the mean time


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    It is very simple, I get up at 7 in the morning I get the kids their breakfast and i am out the door at eight, my wife gets up at eight gets the kids ready for school and drops the kids to school at 9:00 maybe does a small bit of shopping in the heel of the reel none of us have time to light the fire until about 10:00. If I had an accumulator tank, instead of the OFCH coming on at 6:30 so that we can all have relative comfort when we get up, I just prefer to be able to use the excess hot water that has been generated during the day for this particular period, thus reducing my oil bill. Maybe the fire wouldnt have to be lit until 2 or 3 in the day. As well as that, having done my research it would appear that an Accumulator tank is one of the best ways to marry up a solid fuel system which is vented and a modern OFCH system which is not. Also if My wife is away during the day and the fire doesnt get lit until 7 or 8 in the evening just use the excess hot water that has been there from the night before
    During the very cold spells last year and the year before the heat had to come on in the middle of the night to ensure that pipes and the humans didnt freeze overnight, an accumulator tank allows this to happen without being depdendent on oil. I'm not really prepared to get up at 3 in the morning and reload the fire like someone I know was doing last winter
    My long term aim is no oil and use my own fuel, as i already said I cant afford a log gasification set up at present but maybe i can go half way in the mean time

    Then yes the thermal store/accumulator tank will do the biz, but you do not need a gasification boiler when a log batch boiler will do and you do not need both if the range will produce the hot water you want to store...........you just need the tank and a few controls i think.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Anyone mind if I ask a question about firewood on this thread?
    Has anyone any experience of burning furze/gorse? There's a heck of a lot dead here since last winter and I'm wondering about harvesting it.
    Cheers :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    slowburner wrote: »
    Anyone mind if I ask a question about firewood on this thread?
    Has anyone any experience of burning furze/gorse? There's a heck of a lot dead here since last winter and I'm wondering about harvesting it.
    Cheers :pac:

    i know that it can be burnt for charcoal but n ot sure how good or bad it is for heat, general rule for your idea is; if theres a lot of it thats gonna be fairly easy to get from field to your fire and if its a decent thickness so you aint loading the fire every 10 mins then go for it! and let us know how it burns!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭webels


    slowburner wrote: »
    Anyone mind if I ask a question about firewood on this thread?
    Has anyone any experience of burning furze/gorse? There's a heck of a lot dead here since last winter and I'm wondering about harvesting it.
    Cheers :pac:
    This reminded me of a thread from a while back from johngalway
    Touch: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056158562?page=1#post_72103807
    Regular: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70266167


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    webels wrote: »
    This reminded me of a thread from a while back from johngalway
    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056158562?page=1#post_72103807
    So it seems from JG's thread, that furze/gorse/whins actually burn fairly well if not too dry or too small.
    I'll try some and report back.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Has anyone here made charcoal? I've seen one or two You Tubes on the subject and it always seems to me that the amount of energy required to make the stuff exceeds the amount of charcoal produced.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭Eleganza


    The woods of Ireland weren't cut down to build english ships. they were cut down for smelting of iron with charcoal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭clonmahon


    slowburner wrote: »
    I use Birch quite a bit for wood turning. I sort of like to champion its use because this might take pressure off other native hardwoods. When dry it's actually a surprisingly hard wood, much harder than is common knowledge. It sounds to me as if your Birch is suffering in some way if it is going soft and cardboardy. It is very susceptible to rot and fungi and needs plenty of air circulating to season it. I suspect that this difficulty in seasoning is one of the reasons that it is just not available as timber, apart from one of the plies in top class plywood.
    Could it be that your birch was stored in a pile where air didn't circulate freely? Other woods don't suffer from being stored this way.

    I agree with this, many people dismiss birch as rubbish, but it is as slowburner says a very hard wood when seasoned. In fact Howard Hughes famous plane the so called Spruce Goose one of the biggest aircraft that ever flew, was built from birch. Also birch makes top quality plywood. I've been using birch as firewood for the last 20 years. The one thing to remember with birch is that the bark is waterproof and if left in lengths with the bark intact it will not season, it will rot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭clonmahon


    slowburner wrote: »
    Has anyone here made charcoal? I've seen one or two You Tubes on the subject and it always seems to me that the amount of energy required to make the stuff exceeds the amount of charcoal produced.

    I've made it. Done a workshop back in 1994 in Lough Rinn, Co Leitrim on charcoal making, we made it in a big metal kiln (maybe 300 gallon volume) and then I made it at home in a 40 gallon metal barrel. According to the guys who done the workshop hazel is the best raw material, followed by birch. I was thinking of it as a business but back then the market wanted charcoal briquettes, now the market is all lump charcoal.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    clonmahon wrote: »
    I agree with this, many people dismiss birch as rubbish, but it is as slowburner says a very hard wood when seasoned. In fact Howard Hughes famous plane the so called Spruce Goose one of the biggest aircraft that ever flew, was built from birch. Also birch makes top quality plywood. I've been using birch as firewood for the last 20 years. The one thing to remember with birch is that the bark is waterproof and if left in lengths with the bark intact it will not season, it will rot.
    That's great information - many thanks. I think there was a post here somewhere about how birch was no good because it rotted - that explains that.
    That's interesting about HH's plane too. Birch must have a high strength to weight ratio.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    clonmahon wrote: »
    I've made it. Done a workshop back in 1994 in Lough Rinn, Co Leitrim on charcoal making, we made it in a big metal kiln (maybe 300 gallon volume) and then I made it at home in a 40 gallon metal barrel. According to the guys who done the workshop hazel is the best raw material, followed by birch. I was thinking of it as a business but back then the market wanted charcoal briquettes, now the market is all lump charcoal.
    The thing that puts me off making charcoal is that it seems you need to burn more wood to make the charcoal than the amount of charcoal created :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭clonmahon


    slowburner wrote: »
    The thing that puts me off making charcoal is that it seems you need to burn more wood to make the charcoal than the amount of charcoal created :confused:

    There is no point in making charcoal unless you have a need that can only be met by charcoal, like barbecuing, or blacksmithing. Charcoal burns without smoke and at a much higher temperature than wood.

    There are two kinds of moisture in wood, free water which is what you remove by seasoning. And bound water which is part of the chemical make up of the wood, charcoal making removes this bound water. The residue is mostly pure carbon and will burn very hot and very clean. It is a lot lighter than the original wood but retains most of the potential energy.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33 eatmedrinkme


    There's a couple of sites listing the BTU the thermal units per cord pf firewood (most seem to be American), which is a count of the energy contained in the wood.

    There's a good one here, which could be a guide. Ash scores about the same as birch.

    Eucalyptius scores quite well (higher than some oak).

    We're in the planning stage for our firewood at my place, and, at the moment, harvest and coppice what's available. And in the planning process, we're considering mainly native species. And the thought process runs something like this. What will grow, what will grow well, and how long will it take. How much will it cost to protect against rabbit and deer (deer are especially a problem where we are), and what work will be involved in harvesting, transporting and processing it (this can be huge if done on a budget).

    Ash coppices well, and grows straight and knot free when planted close together. It splits with little work, and seasons quickly, so it's little work, and has a relatively high BTU, so we'll need less of it, but won't grow as fast as more wet tolerant species, unless we drain. Plus, we have to pay to plant it, and do the work. It grows fairly fast in the right conditions. Deer like to bark it.

    Alder grows well on our soil, and is self seeding (we'll have three well established self seeded plantations just by sitting on out hands in several years), coppices well, and seasons reasonanly quickly (two years ideally). Ot has a low BTU, but splits well, and is light, so, we'll need more of it, but it's easier work than ash and grows faster on our wet soil. It's more twiggy, so felling an limbing is more work. Plus, the deer leave it alone, so we don't need to fence it.

    Eucalyptus grows fast, and the right variuety apparently tolerates wet and cold, and it has a high BTU, and should be easy to limb, but, apparently (I haven't tried it yet) is a bugger to split as the fibres twist. We'll find out if the deer like the taste of it.

    Birch tolerstes wet, and can do well, but the deer love it. Good BTU, fairly easy to split ( though the wood can be hard when seasoned), and grows straight, and isn't too twiggyu, so it's an easy fall and limbing.

    Spruce is everywhere, has a low BTU, and is a bugger to split due to it's knottiness ( a tough splitting wood can really add time tou your cutting and splitting chores), grows fast and straight, and needs little limbing. It's takes two years to season, and needs to be kept very dry, but burns fast an gives out it's heat quickly, so it's good for starting a fire ( five balled up newspaper pages and an open vent range and seasoned spruce logs = roaring fire in 7 minutes) but you have to reload often. The deer don't eat it.

    Oak will grow incredibly slowly, and the deer love it, in our conditions, ditto beech, and on marginal land, apparently, neither coppice reliably.

    Native species tend to harbour and facilitate hugely more flora and fauna than non natives, and that's a condiseration for us.

    Given our conditions, needs, and what's already here, we're looking at a mix of alder and spruce with no deer proof fencing (all the spruce was planted by the previous owners) for the next while, with a growing sprinkling of ash as that crop comes in, with some birch thrown in as and when we can afford some deer proof fencing ( the deer ate about 80% of what we put in last year).

    And we'll grow selected oak and beech as standards, to full height. But that's for the grandkids in 50 years time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    sites listing the BTU the thermal units per cord pf firewood (most seem to be American), which is a count of the energy contained in the wood.

    There's a good one here, which could be a guide. Ash scores about the same as birch.

    .

    you might be better off looking up calorific values rather than what you're on about above, its whats used in ireland more often than not and can be used to compare oil gas etc as well as wood....

    have you not considered going through the grant scheme at all to establish the trees? it would take care of a lot of your concerns about costs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    BTU's is otherwise British Thermal Units which is a recognised way of measureing the heat value or calorific value of basically everything but mainly fuel including wood. Some use joules today instead of BTU's but are the same just measurements of energy.

    Whether it be hardwood or softwood it doesnt make any difference as it is the calorific value (energy) of the fuel which counts.

    Grants are ok as long as you can get them but do you think they will be there in the very near future and if so where is the money coming from?

    Point is if your venture cant stand up with out subsidies then it isnt really viable......How much to maintain, harvest and process your finished product?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    fodda wrote: »
    BTU's is otherwise British Thermal Units which is a recognised way of measureing the heat value or calorific value

    Grants are ok as long as you can get them but do you think they will be there in the very near future and if so where is the money coming from?

    Point is if your venture cant stand up with out subsidies then it isnt really viable......

    nothing against BTU's, just found that most people i deal with operate with calorific value....not saying other methods arnt as good/accurate in any way

    money for grants comes from irish and eu funding, yes i do think they'll be there, only 3 weeks ago funding was announced for pre christmas planting of 1500 hectares and that funding was divided yesterday and will be drawn down over the next 2-3 months depending on speed of work completion...the reason i think it will remain for afforestation work is because its got to the stage where we cant afford not to keep planting but of course i accept that nothing is certain these days....

    your point about subsidies and viability in this situation is ridiculous in my opinion, if this man/woman is looking to cover costs then why shouldnt he/she look at the grant option, they pay tax, they are putting land to a use which this country badly needs....it would be a bit high and mighty to suggest not taking the grants just to prove you can produce firewood without subsidies


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    There's a couple of sites listing the BTU the thermal units per cord pf firewood (most seem to be American), which is a count of the energy contained in the wood.

    There's a good one here, which could be a guide. Ash scores about the same as birch.

    Eucalyptius scores quite well (higher than some oak).

    We're in the planning stage for our firewood at my place, and, at the moment, harvest and coppice what's available. And in the planning process, we're considering mainly native species. And the thought process runs something like this. What will grow, what will grow well, and how long will it take. How much will it cost to protect against rabbit and deer (deer are especially a problem where we are), and what work will be involved in harvesting, transporting and processing it (this can be huge if done on a budget).

    Ash coppices well, and grows straight and knot free when planted close together. It splits with little work, and seasons quickly, so it's little work, and has a relatively high BTU, so we'll need less of it, but won't grow as fast as more wet tolerant species, unless we drain. Plus, we have to pay to plant it, and do the work. It grows fairly fast in the right conditions. Deer like to bark it.

    Alder grows well on our soil, and is self seeding (we'll have three well established self seeded plantations just by sitting on out hands in several years), coppices well, and seasons reasonanly quickly (two years ideally). Ot has a low BTU, but splits well, and is light, so, we'll need more of it, but it's easier work than ash and grows faster on our wet soil. It's more twiggy, so felling an limbing is more work. Plus, the deer leave it alone, so we don't need to fence it.

    Eucalyptus grows fast, and the right variuety apparently tolerates wet and cold, and it has a high BTU, and should be easy to limb, but, apparently (I haven't tried it yet) is a bugger to split as the fibres twist. We'll find out if the deer like the taste of it.

    Birch tolerstes wet, and can do well, but the deer love it. Good BTU, fairly easy to split ( though the wood can be hard when seasoned), and grows straight, and isn't too twiggyu, so it's an easy fall and limbing.

    Spruce is everywhere, has a low BTU, and is a bugger to split due to it's knottiness ( a tough splitting wood can really add time tou your cutting and splitting chores), grows fast and straight, and needs little limbing. It's takes two years to season, and needs to be kept very dry, but burns fast an gives out it's heat quickly, so it's good for starting a fire ( five balled up newspaper pages and an open vent range and seasoned spruce logs = roaring fire in 7 minutes) but you have to reload often. The deer don't eat it.

    Oak will grow incredibly slowly, and the deer love it, in our conditions, ditto beech, and on marginal land, apparently, neither coppice reliably.

    Native species tend to harbour and facilitate hugely more flora and fauna than non natives, and that's a condiseration for us.

    Given our conditions, needs, and what's already here, we're looking at a mix of alder and spruce with no deer proof fencing (all the spruce was planted by the previous owners) for the next while, with a growing sprinkling of ash as that crop comes in, with some birch thrown in as and when we can afford some deer proof fencing ( the deer ate about 80% of what we put in last year).

    And we'll grow selected oak and beech as standards, to full height. But that's for the grandkids in 50 years time.
    Curiously, the deer leave birch alone here, I always thought the bark was unpalatable to them. I have had no luck coppicing birch.
    Eucalyptus is an absolute demon for twisting as it grows - this makes it hard to split. And if you are concerned with biodiversity, eucalyptus will contribute nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭clonmahon


    fodda wrote: »
    Whether it be hardwood or softwood it doesnt make any difference as it is the calorific value (energy) of the fuel which counts.

    I agree with this, over the last 20 years I've burned all kinds of timber in my Stanley 8. Some earlier posts in this thread suggested willow is not good in a range, I have yet to find a seasoned timber that will not burn well in my range.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 eatmedrinkme


    have you not considered going through the grant scheme at all to establish the trees? it would take care of a lot of your concerns about costs

    We're probably going to try to get granting for the establishment of a native woodland, but we may also have to plant separately for specific uses. Certainly, it looks likely we'll have enough granting to cover drainage, fencing and planting for our woodland, and, as it's non commercial, ongoing grants are not the issue. It should be small scale enough to be manageable once established without grants.

    As far as I know, the native woodland grants will only cover trees considered appropriate to your soil and conditions, and, according to a local forester, that'lll limit my choices, and anything else I want to grow will be outside of that.
    Curiously, the deer leave birch alone here, I always thought the bark was unpalatable to them. I have had no luck coppicing birch.
    Eucalyptus is an absolute demon for twisting as it grows - this makes it hard to split. And if you are concerned with biodiversity, eucalyptus will contribute nothing.

    Re birch and deer, it may not be the bark they loved on out trees, but they seemed to find the new shoots irresistible, pulling off deer protectors to get at them. And most of the barking that's happened seems to be antler sharpening and polishing, not stripping for food.

    Birch appeals because it should do better than most on my soil, and has a higher btu than alder. Getting ash to grow well where I am will be a lot of work. I have no idea if it coppices at all, but a brief internet trawl indicates it needs to be cut when at less than 6 inches diameter to have a chance at regrowing it doesn't seem to be ideal for that,

    And if I plant eucalyptus, it's likely to be a tiny fraction of the overall woodland. I'll be trying eucalyptus, boxwood, sweet chestnut and a couple of other woods for specific uses.

    Just remembered, there's an old, disused hazel coppice where the trees are overstood just down the road, and it's not harvested or used. That could fill in the gaps for a year or two if the owner is game...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    And Birch will do well on damp ground. Ash will develop canker (not sure what the scientific term is) on wet ground.
    When you say boxwood do you mean Buxus ?
    Sweet Chestnut is one of the most remarkable of all trees in my opinion. It will grow nearly everywhere. Grows relatively fast. It can be coppiced (so I'm told) and the timber is fantastic: durable, easy to work and finishes well.
    Oh and you can roast the fruits too :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭mountainy man


    I am finding that Downy birch does much better than silver birch on wet peaty ground, also I like those fuzzy little leaves:)

    Its bare root season again :D

    Am going to plant some scots pine, i really like the windswept look of them, think the squirrels like them too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33 eatmedrinkme


    slowburner wrote: »
    And Birch will do well on damp ground. Ash will develop canker (not sure what the scientific term is) on wet ground.
    When you say boxwood do you mean Buxus ?
    Sweet Chestnut is one of the most remarkable of all trees in my opinion. It will grow nearly everywhere. Grows relatively fast. It can be coppiced (so I'm told) and the timber is fantastic: durable, easy to work and finishes well.
    Oh and you can roast the fruits too :)

    I do mean Buxus, Buxus Sempervirens, UK boxwood. Was used to make cogs for wheels, and hard tough tools. Hardest of the European hardwoods apparently.

    On my land, any ash will have to be plamted carefully if I want to have fast growing healthy trees. I had tought Sweet Chesnut needed well drained soil. In the sunny South of England, it coppices well apparently. Ben Law, the coppicing guru in the UK, has a sweet chestnut forest. Splits well, worls well outdoors untreated - lasts for a long time apparently. But I think my land is unsuited to it. I did want to try some experimental planting of it however. And you may need better summers than we get in the Northwest for good sweet chesnuts...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I do mean Buxus, Buxus Sempervirens, UK boxwood. Was used to make cogs for wheels, and hard tough tools. Hardest of the European hardwoods apparently.

    On my land, any ash will have to be plamted carefully if I want to have fast growing healthy trees. I had tought Sweet Chesnut needed well drained soil. In the sunny South of England, it coppices well apparently. Ben Law, the coppicing guru in the UK, has a sweet chestnut forest. Splits well, worls well outdoors untreated - lasts for a long time apparently. But I think my land is unsuited to it. I did want to try some experimental planting of it however. And you may need better summers than we get in the Northwest for good sweet chesnuts...
    Fabulous timber boxwood, much sought after by wood turners, me included. Are you planning to plant it as a 'cash crop' or firewood :eek: You'll be waiting a while for either, methinks.
    I have sweet chestnut growing here with their roots in a stream - I heard too (maybe here) that they are a tree of well drained calcareous soil. They are absolutely thriving here in the wet ground which is extremely acidic but mineral rich. I would chance planting them but maybe professional advice would be wise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    slowburner wrote: »
    So it seems from JG's thread, that furze/gorse/whins actually burn fairly well if not too dry or too small.
    I'll try some and report back.

    I can report directly :)

    You can burn them fresh, but it's better to season them - for a while. Too long and they'll dry out and burn out quicker, it's a judgement call.

    The small bits are excellent kindling, and SFA use for anything else. You could burn a truckload in a night, that is if your manservant didn't mind drawing them in all night, because no one in their right mind would bother.

    The bigger pieces are good for heat. I give most to the girlfriend who burns them in an open fire place, much to my lament. But when the TV and cooker give out, well, a stove is a long way down the list.

    Now, the parents, they have a stove and I think furze is great for it. It's the gift that keeps on giving once you warm the stove up. While the furze will burn quickly, if it goes out, it can be lit quickly again.

    I'm positively sure there's much better firewood in lastability terms. But, if you've a farmer on your doorstep that has mature furze, it's worth the ask does he want them cleared.

    I use a top handle chainsaw, which is much more nimble for the job than the standard type. I cut off the trash, then pretty much dissect the bigger branches then and there, doing as much as I can in the time I have. It IS a job to clear the trash from the firewood mind.

    I've set up a frame on the farm made from weldmesh. It means I can sit the cut furze up off the ground and stack two rows deeps (OK, it's a small frame :D ), this means there's very good airflow, and a bit of polythene on top keeps the water off.

    There are better woods, but the price is right for me. Got to get buzzing again soon as supplies are dwindling!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Great info from the original source :). I use a single handed saw too, you just can't beat them for handiness. The furze I am looking at is mostly dead and nature has stripped most of the spindly stuff. I'll cut some as soon as it's defrosted (-3ºc atm)


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 eatmedrinkme


    slowburner wrote: »
    Fabulous timber boxwood, much sought after by wood turners, me included. Are you planning to plant it as a 'cash crop' or firewood :eek: You'll be waiting a while for either, methinks.
    I have sweet chestnut growing here with their roots in a stream - I heard too (maybe here) that they are a tree of well drained calcareous soil. They are absolutely thriving here in the wet ground which is extremely acidic but mineral rich. I would chance planting them but maybe professional advice would be wise.

    I'm planning to plant the Boxwood just for the hell of it. There's no commercial aspect to anything I put in, apart from supply me with firewood, and, in the case of some specialist trees, giving me useful timber.

    Good to hear about the sweet chestnut. I'll try some in a corner somewhere, or as part of a nursery screen for something else. Again, it's not commercial, and if the first few take, I'll put in more somewhere. If not, no major loss.

    We've grown a couple of trees from seed and nut, so, I guess we might do the same with these.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    which is the fastest growing tree,


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Would it be too early to put an order in for a cube of boxwood?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    goat2 wrote: »
    which is the fastest growing tree,
    Do you mean out of the trees mentioned here, or in general?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    slowburner wrote: »
    Do you mean out of the trees mentioned here, or in general?
    in general


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭mountainy man


    Interesting list of species and uses and conditions needed.

    http://www.ifa.ie/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=LzbhnlWMVaw%3D&tabid=703


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    goat2 wrote: »
    which is the fastest growing tree,
    My guess is Leylandii.


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