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Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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Comments

  • #4052
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    GerM wrote: »
    I don't think he's out of form. I think the injury has destroyed his confidence. He came back to a different game and he has struggled immensely. If he was just out of form he wouldn't be still sliding down the pecking order 2 years after his injury. Sad to say, but I think the best thing for TOL would be to get out of Ireland now and try to rebuild his career and confidence elsewhere away from the magnifying glass of Irish rugby.


    I'd say if he wants first team rugby he wont have a choice but look elsewhere as Murray should be Munster first choice for the forseeable future. I think he'd find it hard to get into a good side elsewhere, the quaity of scrumhalves in the Irish sides is much lower than that in Scotland, Wales or England IMO. England and Wales in particular seem to prefer bright little nippy scrumhalves.


  • #4053
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Thing with TOL is his game has never been based around skills, his passing is poor, his kicking is erratic, imo, his organisation and decision making is poor too. What he is is a complete physical freak, he's hugely strong, hugely fast and fit. You rarely see him pulling up due tiredness for example. All that is fine, it's what you want from a flanker though, not a scrumhalf, a scrumhalf needs a good pass and now, a good kicking game.

    I think it's too early to call with Murray, he has a lot of improvements to make yet, but already he seems to do the basics at a higher level than TOL.


  • #4054
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Thing with TOL is his game has never been based around skills, his passing is poor, his kicking is erratic, imo, his organisation and decision making is poor too. What he is is a complete physical freak, he's hugely strong, hugely fast and fit. You rarely see him pulling up due tiredness for example. All that is fine, it's what you want from a flanker though, not a scrumhalf, a scrumhalf needs a good pass and now, a good kicking game.

    I think it's too early to call with Murray, he has a lot of improvements to make yet, but already he seems to do the basics at a higher level than TOL.

    You've nailed it there, might as well put SOB at SH and bring Wallace back into the team if all we want is phyiscality from our SH.


  • #4055
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    danthefan wrote: »
    You've nailed it there, might as well put SOB at SH and bring Wallace back into the team if all we want is phyiscality from our SH.

    Dead right Dan, I've said that before. Why not put Ferris at SH if you want a big physical fast SH who can't pass?

    I really can't see how TOL will ever make it back into the Munster team at SH as long as Stringer stays around. Obv Murray will be 9 for the foreseeable future.


  • #4056
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Considering his physicality and form was kept him undisputed scrum half in that years six nations and was picked for a lions tour (where he probably would have started if not for injury) on the back of his performances I hardly think it's bull

    maybe you could offer an explanation as to how it's bull rather than telling me to "go way outta that" and saying it's bull

    That's complete bollocks tbh. The Grand Slam was won in spite of TOL imo.


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  • #4057
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    wixfjord wrote: »
    That's complete bollocks tbh. The Grand Slam was won in spite of TOL imo.

    Are you going to back up you opinion with any sort of factual evidence?


  • #4058
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Are you going to back up you opinion with any sort of factual evidence?

    What factual evidence do you need to see that he's an awful scrum half?
    I seriously can't understand how people are still defending TOL and Buckley at this stage!!


  • #4059
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    wixfjord wrote: »
    What factual evidence do you need to see that he's an awful scrum half?
    I seriously can't understand how people are still defending TOL and Buckley at this stage!!


    He's playing very poorly at the moment but I thought he was more than adequate for Ireland when he was starting in 09. Obviously this view was shared by more than me, he was selected for a lions tour after all

    I was glad he wasn't brought to NZ because he really was playing awful rugby but I hope the guy can come back and fight for his place in Munster (although I don't see him getting in the Irish team again)

    I don't really like seeing the guy being bashed around and having his previous achievements with club and country written off

    Critque a player alright but I don't see the point in just calling him awful for the sake of it. I'm sure he's had a hard enough time after being dropped

    Same with Buckley, never an International standard prop but It wasn't his fault he was picked by Kidney. Hope he does well in the Premiership too


  • #4060
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    wixfjord wrote: »
    That's complete bollocks tbh. The Grand Slam was won in spite of TOL imo.

    He really wasn't bad in that 6N. He brought all the stuff he's good at i.e. defending, sweeping, covering a massive amount of ground but his passing was sharp and accurate also. Watch the tries from the French game. His passing to ROG is crisp and on the money especially the one for BOD's try. Ball out in front zipping out, ROG moving onto it. The bloke is a shadow of the player he once was. After he came back from the injury he just never really got back to where he was and had his confidence knocked again and again to the point where he's a complete shell of the player he was.


  • #4061
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,010 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    GerM wrote: »
    He really wasn't bad in that 6N. He brought all the stuff he's good at i.e. defending, sweeping, covering a massive amount of ground but his passing was sharp and accurate also. Watch the tries from the French game. His passing to ROG is crisp and on the money especially the one for BOD's try. Ball out in front zipping out, ROG moving onto it. The bloke is a shadow of the player he once was. After he came back from the injury he just never really got back to where he was and had his confidence knocked again and again to the point where he's a complete shell of the player he was.

    I think that's a fair summation.


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  • #4062
    Fireball07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    GerM wrote: »
    He really wasn't bad in that 6N. He brought all the stuff he's good at i.e. defending, sweeping, covering a massive amount of ground but his passing was sharp and accurate also. Watch the tries from the French game. His passing to ROG is crisp and on the money especially the one for BOD's try. Ball out in front zipping out, ROG moving onto it. The bloke is a shadow of the player he once was. After he came back from the injury he just never really got back to where he was and had his confidence knocked again and again to the point where he's a complete shell of the player he was.

    Yeah, I've never been TOL's biggest fan but he has had some very good games for Ireland, and during the Grand Slam season he was excellent.


  • #4063
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    GerM wrote: »
    He really wasn't bad in that 6N. He brought all the stuff he's good at i.e. defending, sweeping, covering a massive amount of ground but his passing was sharp and accurate also. Watch the tries from the French game. His passing to ROG is crisp and on the money especially the one for BOD's try. Ball out in front zipping out, ROG moving onto it. The bloke is a shadow of the player he once was. After he came back from the injury he just never really got back to where he was and had his confidence knocked again and again to the point where he's a complete shell of the player he was.


    Good assessment as usual Germ


  • #4064
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    wixfjord wrote: »
    What factual evidence do you need to see that he's an awful scrum half?
    I seriously can't understand how people are still defending TOL and Buckley at this stage!!

    When looking back at teams from the past you can't use knowledge you have now i.e. hindsight is a wonderful thing!

    This time last year Buckley was the deserved first choice for Ireland. He isn't anymore though.


  • #4065
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    When looking back at teams from the past you can't use knowledge you have now i.e. hindsight is a wonderful thing!

    This time last year Buckley was the deserved first choice for Ireland. He isn't anymore though.

    Absolutely 100% not. There was never a time when Buckley was the best TH prop in this country.

    Hindsight is indeed great, but most people were saying there was no way should Buckley have been near that team.


  • #4066
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    This time last year Buckley was the deserved first choice for Ireland. He isn't anymore though.

    You know when you said that a baby kitten died somewhere, right?

    Anyway... Who's Munster's native replacement for their prop dynasty? Anyone interesting coming through the ranks to fill the boots of Hayes and co?


  • #4067
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    wixfjord wrote: »
    Absolutely 100% not. There was never a time when Buckley was the best TH prop in this country.

    Hindsight is indeed great, but most people were saying there was no way should Buckley have been near that team.

    Have a look through the SA v Ire thread from last year. Some people are saying Ross should be in the squad but most are happy with Buckley starting.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056075929&page=2


  • #4068
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,010 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    When looking back at teams from the past you can't use knowledge you have now i.e. hindsight is a wonderful thing!

    This time last year Buckley was the deserved first choice for Ireland. He isn't anymore though.

    Never. Not in any shape or form. With a proper run of games at 3 Court would be a far better bet. Deccie Fitzpatrick is immensely better as a tight head and Deccie isn't great at all. Then there is John Andress..etc


  • #4069
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Have a look through the SA v Ire thread from last year. Some people are saying Ross should be in the squad but most are happy with Buckley starting.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056075929&page=2

    Look at the second post in that thread.


  • #4070
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    wixfjord wrote: »
    Look at the second post in that thread.

    Look at all the other ones. The general boards rugby forum opinion is happy with Buckley starting.


  • #4071
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Look at all the other ones. The general boards rugby forum opinion is happy with Buckley starting.

    But it was wrong.
    Anyway it's not hindsight if i said it before the thing happened is it?!


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  • #4072
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    jacothelad wrote: »
    Never. Not in any shape or form. With a proper run of games at 3 Court would be a far better bet. Deccie Fitzpatrick is immensely better as a tight head and Deccie isn't great at all. Then there is John Andress..etc

    But this time last year Buckley had had a very good end of season tour to NZ and Oz for Ireland and then started last season well for Munster.


  • #4073
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    wixfjord wrote: »
    Absolutely 100% not. There was never a time when Buckley was the best TH prop in this country.

    Hindsight is indeed great, but most people were saying there was no way should Buckley have been near that team.
    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Look at all the other ones. The general boards rugby forum opinion is happy with Buckley starting.
    wixfjord wrote: »
    But it was wrong.
    Anyway it's not hindsight if i said it before the thing happened is it?!

    Huh?


  • #4074
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Buckley and TOL are similar enough situations imo, both have massive physical advantages over other players going for their positions but also massive deficits in their skills.

    Somewhere down the line Munster messed up or chose incorrectly when deciding how young players would be trained. They looked at Buckley and TOL and imagined how good they'd be if their skills could be improved whereas, imo, they should gone for guys with skills and worked on the rest of their game, like Quins did with Mike Ross. Skills, particularly at 3 and 9, follow the mindset of the player, as much as any position they are positions you need to have the right mindset for, you can't hope to impose that mindset on someone who doesn't have it.


  • #4075
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Huh?
    The consensus was wrong, Buckley is ****e, what's hard to understand about that?!


  • #4076
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Buckley and TOL are similar enough situations imo, both have massive physical advantages over other players going for their positions but also massive deficits in their skills.

    Somewhere down the line Munster messed up or chose incorrectly when deciding how young players would be trained. They looked at Buckley and TOL and imagined how good they'd be if their skills could be improved whereas, imo, they should gone for guys with skills and worked on the rest of their game, like Quins did with Mike Ross. Skills, particularly at 3 and 9, follow the mindset of the player, as much as any position they are positions you need to have the right mindset for, you can't hope to impose that mindset on someone who doesn't have it.

    Great point. The likes of Healy for example has been coached well and has improved his scrummaging immensely, Buckley and TOL have all the raw materials to be top players, but haven't come on.


  • #4077
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    GerM wrote: »
    He really wasn't bad in that 6N. He brought all the stuff he's good at i.e. defending, sweeping, covering a massive amount of ground but his passing was sharp and accurate also. Watch the tries from the French game. His passing to ROG is crisp and on the money especially the one for BOD's try. Ball out in front zipping out, ROG moving onto it. The bloke is a shadow of the player he once was. After he came back from the injury he just never really got back to where he was and had his confidence knocked again and again to the point where he's a complete shell of the player he was.

    He was ok in that 6N, and the game we were playing but Reddan should have started.


  • #4078
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    wixfjord wrote: »
    The consensus was wrong, Buckley is ****e, what's hard to understand about that?!

    This time last year he wasn't and he was also one of our better performers on the tour to NZ and Oz. His biggest problem was a lack of consistency and this time last year it looked like he'd gotten over this. Obviously from November on the season was a disaster for him.

    You also said that "most people" thought he shouldn't be on the team last year when this wasn't true. You may have which is fair enough.

    I'm not a fan of revisionist history though.


  • #4079
    wixfjord
    Site Banned Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭wixfjord


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    This time last year he wasn't and he was also one of our better performers on the tour to NZ and Oz.

    You also said that "most people" thought he shouldn't be on the team last year when this wasn't true. You may have which is fair enough.

    I'm not a fan of revisionist history though.

    But that's bull****, it's not revisionist if I said it then!!
    Anyway, I have enough of this.


  • #4080
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    wixfjord wrote: »
    But that's bull****, it's not revisionist if I said it then!!
    Anyway, I have enough of this.

    Not really, Buckley did have a good summer tour but there was only 6 scrums in the NZ game. Ross is obviously far, far ahead of him but you can see glimpses of why Buckley was kept around for so long. I expect Hagan will take his squad spot though.


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  • #4081
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,010 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    This time last year he wasn't and he was also one of our better performers on the tour to NZ and Oz. His biggest problem was a lack of consistency and this time last year it looked like he'd gotten over this. Obviously from November on the season was a disaster for him.

    You also said that "most people" thought he shouldn't be on the team last year when this wasn't true. You may have which is fair enough.

    I'm not a fan of revisionist history though.

    I have never met, spoken too or heard anyone at any time say they thought Buckley should play for Ireland apart from Smal, Kidney and a few boot licking journalists. None


This discussion has been closed.
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