Martin McGuinness commander of Óglaigh na hÉireann

shaneybaby · 19-10-2011 10:18AM

Morlar wrote: »

Are you honestly going to try to make the case that he hasn't ? Is this something you genuinely believe?

Proof = common sense maybe ?

Proof is common sense?...seriously? it is a genuine question but that can't be a genuine answer. i thought the whole reason he wasn't in the IRA after 70's is that there is no proof...rather than relying on the common held sense that he was. you can't have it both ways to be fair.

Morlar · 19-10-2011 10:40AM

shaneybaby wrote: »

Proof is common sense?...seriously? it is a genuine question but that can't be a genuine answer. i thought the whole reason he wasn't in the IRA after 70's is that there is no proof...rather than relying on the common held sense that he was. you can't have it both ways to be fair.

You should re-read the post earlier in the thread & follow the links which provide some examples :

shaneybaby wrote: »

Where has it been proven he risked his life??

Morlar wrote: »

The multiple death threats he has recieved over the years. Including after he stood beside Peter Robinson and condemned Republican dissidents as 'Traitors to Ireland'.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=58697

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/wikileaks-sinn-fein-deeply-alarmed-by-martin-mcguinness-death-threat-16006470.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/death-threat-made-against-martin-mcguinness-718043.html

shaneybaby · 19-10-2011 12:52PM

Morlar wrote: »

You should re-read the post earlier in the thread & follow the links which provide some examples :

i did follow the links. that's not proof his life was at risk. Some yahoo sending him threats via a newspaper over the phone, a quote "unknown organisation" calling in. Load of rubbish. When some fella takes a pop at him then i'll believe his life is at risk.

Morlar · 19-10-2011 01:01PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

i did follow the links. that's not proof his life was at risk.

In that case we are going to disagree on this one.

You assert that throughout the Peace Process Martin McGuinness life was not in danger.

I say it was, and offer the death threats he recieved from dissidents as proof.

Next.

shaneybaby · 19-10-2011 01:24PM

Morlar wrote: »

In that case we are going to disagree on this one.

You assert that throughout the Peace Process Martin McGuinness life was not in danger.

I say it was, and offer the death threats he recieved from dissidents as proof.

Next.

He didn't receive the threats, a newspaper did.

And i guess you think that the Garda Commissioner's statements above are conveniently not proof...strange that.

next.

Morlar · 19-10-2011 01:49PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

He didn't receive the threats, a newspaper did.

And i guess you think that the Garda Commissioner's statements above are conveniently not proof...strange that.

next.

Sorry but your position is so moronic here I think I might get brain cancer if I tried to respond.

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 09:23AM

Morlar wrote: »

Sorry but your position is so moronic here I think I might get brain cancer if I tried to respond.

Brain cancer. brilliant. simply brilliant. I ask a genuine question and i'm a carcinogen. classy guy.

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 09:27AM

If McGuinness had anything to do with that 'assassination attempt' (:rolleyes:) on Dana yesterday i might have to revisit my decision not to vote for him....

:D

Morlar · 20-10-2011 12:25PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

Brain cancer. brilliant. simply brilliant. I ask a genuine question and i'm a carcinogen. classy guy.

I would have thought the Classy part of this is where you said that Martin McGuinness has not risked his life throughout the peace process.

All of this on the basis that death threats from dissidents were sent to a newspaper. That is classy.

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 12:39PM

Morlar wrote: »

I would have thought the Classy part of this is where you said that Martin McGuinness has not risked his life throughout the peace process.

All of this on the basis that death threats from dissidents were sent to a newspaper. That is classy.

Proof?

Morlar · 20-10-2011 12:51PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

Proof?

Any balanced, rational individual reading this thread already has proof enough that Martin McGuinness life has been under threat throughout the peace process.

Acknowledging this fact does not imply support or approval it merely is acknowledgment of the reality of the world we live in.

Anyone so vehemently biased so as to reject that reality such as you do here is not really worth bothering with.

The proof would be in the death threats from dissidents. Any assessment of the situation based on an awareness of the different factions starting points, the different elements involved and where they were moved to, would also bear this out. In addition to the death threats from dissidents that is.

Bizarrely this is not suffice for you.

My view is that you are either
a) being disingenous (in that you know full well his life WAS and IS under threat - in which case as stated you are a 'classy guy')
or
b) you genuinely believe that despite the death threats etc Martin McGuinness life was not under threat throughout the Northern Ireland Peace Process.

I am not sure which of those (a or b) is the worst scenario.

As stated- discussing this point with you is harmful to mental health so I am happy to leave it there for others to decide.

I know my view, I know your view and I am happy in the knowledge that any balanced, honest, rational person will have a view which will be based on reality, unlike yours.

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 01:28PM

Morlar wrote: »

Any balanced, rational individual reading this thread already has proof enough that Martin McGuinness life has been under threat throughout the peace process. .....

So you believe british newspapers that his life was under threat but not an irish garda commissioner that he was head of the army council? strange.

Morlar · 20-10-2011 01:39PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

So you believe british newspapers that his life was under threat but not an irish garda commissioner that he was head of the army council? strange.

I could ask you the same question in reverse - if both of those things were equal. Which they are not.

One is an accusation - the question is 'do you believe an accusation without proof'.

The other is a death threat made by dissidents - the question is 'do you believe a person's life has been threatened if they are in receipt of a death threat from dissidents'.

Not exactly the same thing now is it ?

This is what I meant by harmful to mental health.

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 01:46PM

Morlar wrote: »

I could ask you the same question in reverse - if both of those things were equal. Which they are not.

One is an accusation - the question is 'do you believe an accusation without proof'.

The other is a death threat made by dissidents - the question is 'do you believe a person's life has been threatened if they are in receipt of a death threat from dissidents'.

Not exactly the same thing now is it ?

This is what I meant by harmful to mental health.

Again. Where is the proof that McGuinness received death threats?

if it's just because of what was reported and said to a paper then in todays Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1020/breaking31.html

Why did McGuinness meet with a killer on the run and not alert the Gardaí?

In a paper. there is yours proof.
as you said yourself "Proof = common sense".

You can't have it both ways.

Morlar · 20-10-2011 02:02PM

An Allegation is not the same thing as a Death Threat.

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 02:02PM

Morlar wrote: »

An Allegation is not the same thing as a Death Threat.

exactly.

An alleged death threat.

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 02:08PM

Morlar wrote: »

An Allegation is not the same thing as a Death Threat.

I could be wrong, but i think Shaneybaby is saying that you or me could ring up a newspaper and make a death threat, whereas a report by the G.C to the cabinet would carry a bit more weight

Morlar · 20-10-2011 02:37PM

gatecrash wrote: »

I could be wrong, but i think Shaneybaby is saying that you or me could ring up a newspaper and make a death threat, whereas a report by the G.C to the cabinet would carry a bit more weight

Do you think Martin McGuinness life has been under threat throughout the peace process ?

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 02:41PM

Morlar wrote: »

Do you think Martin McGuinness life has been under threat throughout the peace process ?

I don't know.

Certainly not throughout the entire length of the process.

But anyone living in the North had their lives under some form of threat until the peace process became public.

And some people, who may stray a bit far from the legal side of the street still have their lives under threat, both from McGuinness' colleagues and also his enemies.

Morlar · 20-10-2011 02:41PM

Here are a few sources to consider :

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=58697

Martin McGuinness receives new death threats
Sinn Fein's Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has today been warned that he has had new death threats issued against him.

Police contacted the Mid-Ulster MP to warn him that dissident republican's, opposed to the party's current strategy, had threatened his life, just days before the party is due to meet in Dublin to make a decision on their policing policy in Northern Ireland.
...
Today's threats are just in addition to a number of others received by the Sinn Fein leadership in recent times due to the party's plans to reconsider their policy on policing in order to allow the current political process to move forward in an attempt to achieve an all-party power-sharing executive, which is due to be elected on March 7.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/wikileaks-sinn-fein-deeply-alarmed-by-martin-mcguinness-death-threat-16006470.html

A dissident republican threat to kill Martin McGuinness sparked serious alarm within Sinn Fein, a leaked cable reveals.
...
“He was particularly concerned about a recent threat against the life of DFM Martin McGuinness,” she noted.

During their discussion, Mr Adams also raised concerns about attacks on party offices and homes of senior members, including Mitchel McLaughlin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7995834.stm

"Over the past 24 hours I have been contacted by the PSNI and told of the existence of a threat to my life. It is believed this threat comes from a so-called dissident grouping," Mr McGuinness said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8015881.stm

Martin McGuinness was told of the threat from dissident republicans by police within the past 24 hours.

Speaking on Friday at Free Derry Corner, the Sinn Fein MP said he had a job to do and that he intended to do it.

Mr McGuinness also said his wife and children had been verbally abused by "mouthpieces" in the street.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/06/michael-stone-fails-overturn-convictions

Loyalist killer Michael Stone has failed in his attempt to overturn convictions for trying to assassinate Sinn Féin leaders Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7995834.stm

An office used by Sinn Féin in Londonderry has been damaged in an arson attack.

Sometime between Saturday night and Sunday morning a flammable liquid was poured into the office at Rath Mor shopping centre and set alight.

There was smoke damage throughout as well as extensive damage to a corridor.

"If those who carried out this attack think they were striking a blow for Irish freedom then they are deluding themselves," SF's Paul Fleming said.

The party's chairman in Derry continued: "The only thing that they succeeded in destroying last night was iconic pictures of Bobby Sands' election victory announcement, portraits of the hunger strikers and other republican memorabilia.

"It is no coincidence that this attack was carried out on Easter Saturday night with the hope that it would disrupt Sunday's commemoration of the sacrifice paid by our patriot dead."

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 02:46PM

Morlar wrote: »

Here are a few sources to consider :

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=58697

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/wikileaks-sinn-fein-deeply-alarmed-by-martin-mcguinness-death-threat-16006470.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7995834.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8015881.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/06/michael-stone-fails-overturn-convictions

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7995834.stm

Ah here.... Using Michael Stone??

That guy is a freakin lunatic!! You have idiots like him in every country in the world.

And as I said, I do believe that at times his life may have been under threat. But not throughout the entire process. A process that, during which, the Garda Commissioner states that he was actively involved in the IRA

Morlar · 20-10-2011 02:49PM

gatecrash wrote: »

Ah here.... Using Michael Stone??

That guy is a freakin lunatic!! You have idiots like him in every country in the world.

And as I said, I do believe that at times his life may have been under threat. But not throughout the entire process. A process that, during which, the Garda Commissioner states that he was actively involved in the IRA

So you do accept that his life has been under threat throughout the peace process ? Hardly worth the forum pages it has taken to get this far wouldn't you agree?

Your point is that the word 'throughout the peace process' should be edited to say 'at several points during the peace process'.

Seems a bit of a worthless & pedantic exception to make in the circumstances, no ?

IF (hypothetical scenario I know) IF Gay Mitchells Life had been threatened in this manner by dissident republicans - would you be equally pedantic in acknowleding this ?

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 02:52PM

Morlar wrote: »

So you do accept that his life has been under threat throughout the peace process ? Hardly worth the forum pages it has taken to get this far wouldn't you agree?

Your point is that the word 'throughout the peace process' should be edited to say 'at several points during the peace process'.

Seems a bit of a worthless & pedantic exception to make in the circumstances, no ?

IF (hypothetical scenario I know) IF Gay Mitchells Life had been threatened in this manner by dissident republicans - would you be equally pedantic in acknowleding this ?

A guy threathened me in hurling match only but a month ago. Do i put that down on my CV??

The point is how can you believe the words of some random reporter but not believe the (former) head of the Republic's Gardaí?

Morlar · 20-10-2011 02:56PM

shaneybaby wrote: »

A guy threathened me in hurling match only but a month ago. Do i put that down on my CV??

The point is how can you believe the words of some random reporter but not believe the (former) head of the Republic's Gardaí?

If the 'guy at the hurling match' was a dissident republican, part of a group who have murdered PSNI And British army personel left and right, then - yes I'd be sure to make a note of that alright.

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 03:01PM

Morlar wrote: »

So you do accept that his life has been under threat throughout the peace process ? Hardly worth the forum pages it has taken to get this far wouldn't you agree?

Your point is that the word 'throughout the peace process' should be edited to say 'at several points during the peace process'.

Seems a bit of a worthless & pedantic exception to make in the circumstances, no ?

IF (hypothetical scenario I know) IF Gay Mitchells Life had been threatened in this manner by dissident republicans - would you be equally pedantic in acknowleding this ?

So you DO acknowledge that McGuinness was a member of the IRA during the peace process?

See? I can cherry pick words and take non-refutation as acquiescence too!

shaneybaby · 20-10-2011 03:05PM

Morlar wrote: »

If the 'guy at the hurling match' was a dissident republican, part of a group who have murdered PSNI And British army personel left and right, then - yes I'd be sure to make a note of that alright.

He had blood streaming down his face and had half a hurley in each hand, he could have killed half the crowd with that alone. We both know that i'd get a lot less protection from the lunatic on a hurling field than Mr McGuinness would from the murderers he used to lead.

Morlar · 20-10-2011 03:15PM

gatecrash wrote: »

So you DO acknowledge that McGuinness was a member of the IRA during the peace process?

See? I can cherry pick words and take non-refutation as acquiescence too!

I have said elsewhere - I do not know when he left the IRA. Neither do you. Nor do I care. It is simply non relevant. We all know he was in the IRA, the exact dates are not the point here. Having said that I highly, highly doubt he was in the IRA into the mid 1990's.

It would take some convincing to establish that. Oh, I forgot we are not putting forward evidence here, right ? 'Allegation=Proof', huh ? In that case I allege you stole my lawnmower in 1978. Allegation = Proof right ?

All of which is notwithstanding that - it's not the point at all. The point is that we have gone round in circles for the last 2 pages of this thread for the simple reason that a minority refuse to acknowledge the fact that McGuinness has placed his life at risk for the peace process.

This wasn't even highlighted in the way a candidate like Gay Mitchell would highlight it, or Norris (I have risked my life for IRELAND' kind of a way) it was simply mentioned - in passing.

Acknowledging this fact is not going to misinterpreted by anyone as a sign of support or approval ffs.

The fact that those in opposition to McGuinness' bid for Presidency have such a ridiculously hard time acknowledging basic facts is very telling of the irrational resistance and bias that is present in this campaign in my view. It is also clear in the media coverage. The fact as I see it are that there is a virulent anti-repubilcan section of Irish society who would prefer the northern nationalist community just fell off the map, ceased to exsist, things would be neater and more convenient then. Instead we have to face up to the fact that the state they lived in, at the time of Martin McGuinness joining the IRA was a viciously sectarian state, where repression and murder (not to mention collusion with sectarian death squads) were a regular occurence.

The context to that conflict is something that people have an issue with, to accept the fact that previously held 'black and white' preconceptions are not adequate for this particular situation.

cyrusdvirus · 20-10-2011 03:26PM

Morlar wrote: »

I have said elsewhere - I do not know when he left the IRA. Neither do you. Nor do I care. It is simply non relevant. We all know he was in the IRA, the exact dates are not the point here. Having said that I highly, highly doubt he was in the IRA into the mid 1990's.

It would take some convincing to establish that. Oh, I forgot we are not putting forward evidence here, right ? 'Allegation=Proof', huh ? In that case I allege you stole my lawnmower in 1978. Allegation = Proof right ?

All of which is notwithstanding that - it's not the point at all. The point is that we have gone round in circles for the last 2 pages of this thread for the simple reason that a minority refuse to acknowledge the fact that McGuinness has placed his life at risk for the peace process.

This wasn't even highlighted in the way a candidate like Gay Mitchell would highlight it, or Norris (I have risked my life for IRELAND' kind of a way) it was simply mentioned - in passing.

Acknowledging this fact is not going to misinterpreted by anyone as a sign of support or approval ffs.

The fact that those in opposition to McGuinness' bid for Presidency have such a ridiculously hard time acknowledging basic facts is very telling of the irrational resistance and bias that is present in this campaign in my view. It is also clear in the media coverage. The fact as I see it are that there is a virulent anti-repubilcan section of Irish society who would prefer the northern nationalist community just fell off the map, ceased to exsist, things would be neater and more convenient then. Instead we have to face up to the fact that the state they lived in, at the time of Martin McGuinness joining the IRA was a viciously sectarian state, where repression and murder (not to mention collusion with sectarian death squads) were a regular occurence.

The context to that conflict is something that people have an issue with, to accept the fact that previously held 'black and white' preconceptions are not adequate for this particular situation.

The highlighted bit is the crux of the matter. When McGuinness left the IRA is HUGELY relevant!!

I know 3D world people who are saying McGuinness left the IRA 30 odd years ago and sure didn't we have Presidents and Taoisigh who were a lot less removed by time than 30 years.

And yet the Garda Commissioner states that it is a lot more recent than that.

Now, i don't know about you, but if someone running to be the head of state can't tell the truth about when they left an illegal organisation, then what else are they hiding the truth about??

And I am well aware that the IRA so called Army Council cannot just go to their PC and print out an active roster, but one of their leaders would be fairly well known.

Morlar · 20-10-2011 03:54PM

gatecrash wrote: »

The highlighted bit is the crux of the matter. When McGuinness left the IRA is HUGELY relevant!!

Why ?

The nationalist and unionist population seem to have more pressing issues (this is from 2009) :

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/poll-sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-is-northern-irelands-top-minister-14580892.html

belfasttelegraph.co.uk
Poll: Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness is Northern Ireland's top minister

By Noel McAdam and Rebeca Black
Monday, 30 November 2009

Martin McGuinness was today revealed as Northern Ireland’s most respected politician – signalling a remarkable transformation from IRA leader to respected political figurehead.

According to the results of a Belfast Telegraph poll published today, the senior Sinn Fein figure is viewed as by far the top-performing minister in the Northern Ireland Executive.

Even unionists responding to the survey had praise for McGuinness’s performance as Deputy First Minister – contributing to a lead of 20 percentage points over First Minister Peter Robinson.

Today’s survey is the first in a regular series of exclusive |monthly polls which will test the temperature of post-devolution Northern Ireland.

Belfast Telegraph editor Mike Gilson said the results “suggest that we are maybe moving into a different phase in which politicians are judged as much on their performance in the here and now as on their history”.

“If so, that has to be seen as a positive step,” he added.

The Deputy First Minister is viewed as by far the top-performing minister in the Stormont Executive, according to the survey carried out in association with Inform Communications.

The Mid-Ulster MP is now seen as the “most impressive” minister of the power-sharing team — polling more than double the next highest, party colleague Michelle Gildernew.

Once widely regarded as a hate-figure by unionists because of his Provisional IRA background, the senior Sinn Fein man now rates surprisingly well among Protestants, achieving the same score (11%) as Ulster Unionist leader Sir Reg Empey.

And he left his fellow First Minister Peter Robinson trailing by 20 percentage points on both sides of the community.

The poll reflects an astonishing transformation in the image of Mr McGuinness who emerged from the ranks of the IRA in Londonderry in the early 1970s, including a spell in prison in the Republic, to become Sinn Fein’s chief negotiator during Good Friday Agreement negotiations in 1998 and later at St Andrews in 2006.

Today’s survey is the first in a regular Belfast Telegraph/Inform Communication series of polls which will test the temperature of post-devolution Northern Ireland.

Telegraph editor Mike Gilson said: “This poll is a snapshot of course, but it is a very interesting snapshot.

“It suggests that we maybe moving into a different phase of political life here in which politicians are judged as much on their performance in the here and now as on their history.

“If so, that has to be seen as a positive step. If the message is that some people are recognising that politicians can begin the journey from conflict towards statesmanship it is to be welcomed.

“If the message is that our politicians must do more to leave their historical baggage at the door of the debating chamber that too is positive.”

In contrast the Belfast Telegraph/Inform Communications survey put DUP leader Robinson on just 7% — Mr McGuinness scored 27% — with a zero rating among Catholics.

Sinn Fein’s Agriculture Minister is in second place overall with 10%, again with a significant approval level from Protestants (8%).

The DUP’s best performing minister is Arlene Foster with 9% of those surveyed endorsing her track record at Enterprise, Trade and Industry.

Party leader Mr Robinson was in a disappointing fourth place, behind SDLP Social Development Minister and leadership candidate Margaret Ritchie. A DUP spokesman said: “Obviously the DUP is aware of the sort of issues that have been raised by this poll and even before the poll was released our leader Peter Robinson was moving to address some of these issues.”

However, despite Mr McGuinness’s popularity, Sinn Fein remained tightlipped last night and refused to comment.

Two-and-a-half years after the four-party administration took up office the ratings for most ministers are poor.

In some cases the percentages achieved by a few of the ministers — among them the DUP’s Environment Minister Edwin Poots and Culture Minister Nelson McCausland, as well as Sinn Fein junior minister Gerry Kelly — are close to or below the poll’s 3% margin of error.

A sample of 500 people were questioned earlier this month and asked to declare as Protestants, Catholics, or other. Mr McGuinness also scored highest with the latter (21%).

There is contrasting, if unsurprising, news for Sinn Fein as Education Minister Caitriona Ruane is seen as the minister who has most disappointed people.

A total of 24% of Catholics, as well as 39% of Protestants and 19% of others, contributed to Ms Ruane’s disapproval rating of 31%, almost double the next most disappointing, Mr Robinson.

His DUP colleague, Finance Minister Sammy Wilson, and Health Minister Michael McGimpsey also have ‘most disappointed’ people, with the Ulster Unionist Health Minister scoring almost equally between Catholics and Protestants.

Meanwhile, three-quarters of those polled (75%) say the expenses scandals of the last two years have damaged the way they view politicians — with most of the remainder saying it made no difference.

And on the other controversy over double-jobbing, almost the same level of respondents (71%) — including 73% of Protestants and 68% of Catholics — said they are not content for Assembly members to also be MPs at Westminster.

eyescreamcone · 20-10-2011 03:57PM

As Marty is the only candidate with any experience of being in an army, wouldn't he be the best candidate to be commander of the Defence Forces???

Martin McGuinness commander of Óglaigh na hÉireann

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