Martin McGuinness commander of Óglaigh na hÉireann

savagecabbages

gizmo555 wrote: »

There's a big difference between your personally having doubts and xflyer's assertion that it is "generally accepted" that these two deaths were the result of friendly fire. The evidence in the piece linked to is that they were shot at from in front and that later examination of the scene established that shots were fired from non-Garda, non-Army weapons from a spot in front of where the men fell. Immediately after the shootings, Kelly and Sheehan's comrades were confronted at gunpoint by IRA members. That'll do me, on the balance of probabilities.

In any event, the firefight in which they were killed began when the IRA members involved opened fire without warning on Garda and Army personnel as they closed in on their position. Either way, therefore, the IRA bore 100% responsibility for the deaths of Pte Kelly and Gda Sheehan.

Thats twisting facts to suit yourself now, nobody knows who killed one of them, so how can the PIRA be 100% responsible?

(Yes it was a cowardly hostage situation brought about by the PIRA, and I'm not making any excuses for them, but its unfair to be jumping to conclusions on these things just to blacken someones name like that)

One thing I noticed in McGuinness' replies was that he flatly denied being part of the army council of the PIRA at the time. He hummed and hawed a little with the rest of it, but the only absolute statements he made were that he didn't know who shot Kelly, and that he wasn't on the army council...

gizmo555

savagecabbages wrote: »

Thats twisting facts to suit yourself now, nobody knows who killed one of them, so how can the PIRA be 100% responsible?

Because they kidnapped Don Tidey, held him captive at gunpoint and decided to shoot their way out when the Gardai and Army started to close in on them. As reported in today's Irish Times:

Gardaí and troops were combing Derrada Woods on December 16th [1983] when, unknowingly, they came upon the gang’s hideout. The IRA opened fire without warning and threw a grenade. Pte Kelly and Garda Sheehan were killed instantly.

savagecabbages wrote: »

Yes it was a cowardly hostage situation brought about by the PIRA, and I'm not making any excuses for them, but its unfair to be jumping to conclusions on these things just to blacken someones name like that.

Sorry, blacken whose name?

savagecabbages

If a gang rob a bank and a shooutout with the police happens, and the police accidentally shoot one of their own dead, does that make the robbers 100% responsible for the policemans death?

Sorry, blacken whose name?

You do know who this thread is about yeah?

gizmo555

savagecabbages wrote: »

If a gang rob a bank and a shooutout with the police happens, and the police accidentally shoot one of their own dead, does that make the robbers 100% responsible for the policemans death?

Yes, particularly if, as in this instance, the bank robbers ambush and open fire on the police without warning.

savagecabbages wrote: »

You do know who this thread is about yeah?

Well, I wasn't clear if you were talking about McGuinness or Tidey's kidnappers in your last post. Whichever you meant, I don't see anyway how their names could be blackened any more than they already are. David Kelly is absolutely right, McGuinness is a barefaced liar and he shares the responsibility for his father's death with the kidnap gang.

Dyr

gizmo555 wrote: »

In any event.. .

Ah right.. everything was all the provos fault in annyways no matter what actually happened.

cyrusdvirus

Bambi wrote: »

Ah right.. everything was all the provos fault in annyways no matter what actually happened.

well, yeah.

They kidnapped Tidey, they opened fire on the searchers.

What part of that did you not understand?

savagecabbages

the 100% bit

edit: and also how Martin McGuinness is responsible for the death of someone, when nobody knows for sure who killed him.

cyrusdvirus

savagecabbages wrote: »

the 100% bit

edit: and also how Martin McGuinness is responsible for the death of someone, when nobody knows for sure who killed him.

I didn't realise that xflyer was the all knowing all seeing supreme being.

Considering he's the only one who mentioned any sort of ambiguity regarding the murders of Garda Recruit Sheehan and Private Kelly.



It must be good to know that the IRA were not 100% responsible for the Enniskillen Bombing too, that the people who died that day died as a result of injuries caused by falling and flying masonry and debris, not the bomb that exploded.

Morpheus

OMG

its simle...

the provos started the firefight in which 2 state force members died

if the provos hadn't started it, the 2 men would be alive instead of dead

therefore the provos are 100% responsible for the deaths by virtue of initiating a firefight instead of surrendering peacefully.

cruasder777

Morphéus wrote: »

OMG

its simle...

the provos started the firefight in which 2 state force members died

if the provos hadn't started it, the 2 men would be alive instead of dead

therefore the provos are 100% responsible for the deaths by virtue of initiating a firefight instead of surrendering peacefully.

Intresting article on the incident.

Around two o'clock some members of Rudolph 5 unit moved to search Derrada wood where the hide-out was located. Among them were Garda recruit, Gary Sheehan and Private Paddy Kelly. Three others, two Gardai and a soldier, approaching from a different direction, thought they saw something and were about to withdraw for reinnforcements. All this was unknown to Sheehan who by now had spotted a figure in front of him, dressed in Army-type clothing. He (Sheehan) passed some comment but there was no response. He then turned around to Private Kelly and was in the process of telling how some Army person in front wasn't talking to him. Those were Sheehan's last words; within seconds he and Kelly were fatally wounded. The young Garda had injuries to the face and side of the head; Private Kelly had multiple body wounds.

Within seconds of opening fire, Don Tidey's kidnappers threw a stun grenade in the direction of the searchers in the woods closest to them. (Gardai were to say later that evening that at least one of the two deaths was caused by shrapnel from a hand grenade. This was untrue.)

With their nearest adversaries reeling from the effects of the stun grenade, the IRA men concentrated on escaping. They took two Gardai and a soldier near them captive and ordered them to run ahead of them towards the top of the wood. Along the way they captured another Garda. As the gang, dressed like soldiers, emerged from the wood, they overpowered two members of the Army who earlier had been given the task of providing cover for the searchers inside. Having taken some of the weapons belonging to their hostages, the gang ran off.

http://politico.ie/component/content/article/5574.html

Scrag

I suppose you view Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mabdela as heroes. What double standards we have.

xflyer

Gizmo, Pvt Kelly was killed by an IRA bullet. At no point have I suggested otherwise. That isn't in dispute. McGuinness may or may not be a liar but he most likely doesn't know who fired the fatal bullet. What reinforces this is the reality that no one's name has ever been put forward.

Of course all of those present at the scene were guilty of kidnap and associated with the murder. By definition as a leader of the organisation that carried out the kidnap, McGuinness is guilty by association. He was an IRA member after all. Frankly he isn't fit to be President but that's all bye the bye as this campaign is not about him becoming President but about cementing Sinn Fein as a mainstream party and a possible successor to FF. Not a very a palatable thought.

In relation to Garda Sheehan, I was involved in an RTE documentary series dealing with the subject. Researchers saw evidence that suggests he was killed by friendly fire. They weren't allowed to broadcast it though. Also if you look at much of the testimony there seems to be a deliberate ambigiuity in the descriptions of the shootings. This all points to a cover up of some sort.

None of this removes the kidnap gang's responsibility for the sequence of events.

savagecabbages

gatecrash wrote: »

I didn't realise that xflyer was the all knowing all seeing supreme being.

Considering he's the only one who mentioned any sort of ambiguity regarding the murders of Garda Recruit Sheehan and Private Kelly.



It must be good to know that the IRA were not 100% responsible for the Enniskillen Bombing too, that the people who died that day died as a result of injuries caused by falling and flying masonry and debris, not the bomb that exploded.

You actually think that?

Scrag

The media did a brilliant job of making heroes of some and demonizing their own . Maybe you should all do a course on Irish history.I lived in Zimbabwe, I know what terrorism is and the IRA were not classed as terrorists under the international definition.

cyrusdvirus

savagecabbages wrote: »

You actually think that?

Savage, i was being deliberately facetious. It was a reply to your not being 100% sure that the IRA were responsible for the murders of Private Kelly and Garda Recruit Sheehan.

xflyer

Considering he's the only one who mentioned any sort of ambiguity regarding the murders of Garda Recruit Sheehan and Private Kelly.

I think I clarified that, the only ambiguity is in relation to Garda Sheehan. I'm not the only one with this info. I didn't make it up. It's out there and confirmed by a man who was there on the day and by people whose research uncovered something surprising to them. That may be unpalatable to some but there you are.

I'm anti IRA, despite my friendship with a former member. They were terrorists. I'm not going to defend them.

cyrusdvirus

xflyer wrote: »

I think I clarified that, the only ambiguity is in relation to Garda Sheehan. I'm not the only one with this info. I didn't make it up. It's out there and confirmed by a man who was there on the day and by people whose research uncovered something surprising to them. That may be unpalatable to some but there you are.

I'm anti IRA, despite my friendship with a former member. They were terrorists. I'm not going to defend them.

fair enough, I'm not privy to this info, and can only go with what's in the public domain, and my own personal opinion.

Either way, i would hold the IRA 100% responsible for the murder of Private Kelly, and whatever part they played in Garda Recruit Sheehan's death.

mikeym

Il be voting for Martin McGuinness because I don't like the other candidates.

gizmo555

xflyer wrote: »

I'm not the only one with this info. I didn't make it up. It's out there

Where?

xflyer wrote: »

and confirmed by a man who was there on the day and by people whose research uncovered something surprising to them.

Could you be any vaguer?

xflyer wrote:

In relation to Garda Sheehan, I was involved in an RTE documentary series dealing with the subject. Researchers saw evidence that suggests he was killed by friendly fire. They weren't allowed to broadcast it though. Also if you look at much of the testimony there seems to be a deliberate ambigiuity in the descriptions of the shootings. This all points to a cover up of some sort.

Could simply point to the people in RTE with editorial responsibility being unconvinced by the evidence, whatever it consisted of. If multiple researchers had access to this evidence, how come in almost thirty years it has never seen the light of day? Do you even know what the alleged evidence is yourself?

goldie fish

Scrag wrote: »

I suppose you view Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mabdela as heroes. What double standards we have.

And the IRA apologist script has been produced on cue?

Next up

"What about the parachute regument"
"where was the Irish Army when the Catholics were being burnt out of their homes by loyalist thugs"
and other oft quoted tripe.

Come up with something original, please.

goldie fish

xflyer wrote: »

I think I clarified that, the only ambiguity is in relation to Garda Sheehan. I'm not the only one with this info. I didn't make it up. It's out there and confirmed by a man who was there on the day and by people whose research uncovered something surprising to them. That may be unpalatable to some but there you are.

I'm anti IRA, despite my friendship with a former member. They were terrorists. I'm not going to defend them.

Unfortunately your statement( I don't doubt you for a minute by the way) is at odds with ballistic evidence. The ballistic evidence, as described in a book about the deaths(and the deaths of other Gardai) detail the expended cases recovered from the scene, these were fired from an AK 47 and a H&K, neither of which weapon was in use by security forces on the day. It is a Myth that no autopsy was preformed on R/Gda Sheehan or Pte Kelly. Autopsy results are never made public prior to a trial. There has been no trial.

However there seems to be a concerted effort lately, since the non trial of a suspect to the event, to fill the internet with false and misleading information regarding the incident, to an extent that if you hear a lie on the internet often enough, it must be true.
No smoke without fire etc.
There is also much confusion between this incidents, and other kidnappings. Some think the kidnappers were killed at an army garda checkpoint later that year. That is a different kidnapping, many years later. The "blue on blue" is also considered to be "evidence" that R/Gda Kelly was killed in a blue on blue. However this is UNTRUE.
It is well documented, in BOOKS, and the few court transcripts that exist regarding this case. Neither of which are available on d'internet.

Teclo

mikeym wrote: »

Il be voting for Martin McGuinness because I don't like the other candidates.

Keep your eyes and ears open, you may find something to dislike about him too. :rolleyes:

cruasder777

gizmo555 wrote: »

Because they kidnapped Don Tidey, held him captive at gunpoint and decided to shoot their way out when the Gardai and Army started to close in on them. As reported in today's Irish Times:

Gardaí and troops were combing Derrada Woods on December 16th [1983] when, unknowingly, they came upon the gang’s hideout. The IRA opened fire without warning and threw a grenade. Pte Kelly and Garda Sheehan were killed instantly.



Sorry, blacken whose name?

Problem was it was a stun grenade, it never killed anyone.


Within seconds of opening fire, Don Tidey's kidnappers threw a stun grenade in the direction of the searchers in the woods closest to them. (Gardai were to say later that evening that at least one of the two deaths was caused by shrapnel from a hand grenade. This was untrue.)

With their nearest adversaries reeling from the effects of the stun grenade, the IRA men concentrated on escaping. They took two Gardai and a soldier near them captive and ordered them to run ahead of them towards the top of the wood. Along the way they captured another Garda. As the gang, dressed like soldiers, emerged from the wood, they overpowered two members of the Army who earlier had been given the task of providing cover for the searchers inside. Having taken some of the weapons belonging to their hostages, the gang ran off.

http://politico.ie/component/content/article/5574.html

In follow-up searches of the fields where the Provos had made off they disscovered a transistor radio, tuned to pick up "Echo Basel Rudolph" conversations.
One could pick out the Task Force members pulling up to report for duty by the cars they drove. Asconas, Carinas, Sentras, the classy, middle of the market range. All of the men had Belgian-made UZI sub-machine guns, more often than not, on view. The weapons, most suited to shorttrange combat, rise and veer right when firing and can go through some hundreds of rounds per minute. Task Force men carry six magazines, each of which holds thirty rounds.

The Army's Ranger corps were a much more elusive lot.

Unlike the ordinary soldiers who carry Gustav sub-machine guns or FN rifles, Rangers are equipped with the HK subbmachine gun range as used by the SAS during the Iranian Embassy siege in London. There's a hesitancy among Army spokespersons to say anything about the special nighttsights and French-manufactured night surveillance equippment the Rangers had in South Leitrim. The daily briefings where they got psyched up were held in the strictest seccrecy and, faces blackened, they were gone out on duty with the minimum of fuss.

According to an official handbook, one of the roles of the Defence forces is "to aid the civil power (meaning, in practice, to assist when requested, the Garda Siochana who have the primary responsibility for the maintenance or resstoration of the public peace and for internal security)."

The discovery of the IRA's Ballinamore hide-out and the searches afterwards were a unique landmark in Garda/ Army cooperation.

At times it was a flimsy alliance. On Tuesday morning December 20 a local Garda Superintendent was asked had any guns been found during the search of recent days.

"We have found no guns."

Shortly afterwards an Army spokesman confirmed that a soldier's rifle, missing since the Derrada wood incidents on the previous. Friday had been found the previous day.

It wasn't until the following day, Wednesday, that the Garda Press Officer, Supt Noel Anderson, confirmed that as well as locating the soldier's rifle on the Monday, searrchers had also found a sub-machine gun and a blood-stained jacket, presumably belonging to the kidnappers.

Communications was sometimes a problem in the search areas, too. On the afternoon of Thursday December 20 a television crew got approval through the Garda Press Officer to film the search operation in the Cromlin area and a marked Garda patrol car was provided to accompany it. Once out the road though, official approval meant nothing: an irate Garda Sergeant, usually based at the training centre, ordered the cameraman away from the area as he artempted to begin work. Two days before the same sergeant had mistakenly allowed a camera-crew through a :'::O'CktJoint. thinking the Ford Granada car full of detecc~5.

On Sunday afternoon, December 18, Chief Supt McNally emerged from one of his conferences and thought aloud:

"The reekers are up there somewhere but how do r get them out?"








.............The whole op looks like a total ballsup, like so many large ops against the PIRA in the south in the 80s.

Recruits used to search, no secure radio channel (the PIRA unit simply monitored where they were), cops armed with Uzis many had never even fired, it was a recipe for disaster.

The biggest scandal is there has never been an inquiry.

xflyer

Seroiusly Gizmo, you have to realise how things were back then. I am not comfortable with the supposed facts because it goes against my own anti Republican viewpoint. But it was far easier to blame the IRA than it was to admit a blue on blue incident. At the time I was in the FCA and we knew who the enemy was.

Goldie fish, I know where you are coming from. But this isn't stuff gleaned from the internet. It was on a bus on a rainy day in the Wicklow mountains, no attribution, no evidence. But the ballistic 'evidence' isn't what you think. Gawd this pains me. I really don't like this and I don't want to be seen as an apologist for the provos or some kind of conspiracy nut but we are not being told the truth.

I think Garda Sheen and his family deserve that.

I still blame the IRA though, my IRA friend and I have some robust debates, let me tell you.

whydave

cruasder777 wrote: »

The biggest scandal is there has never been an inquiry.

This is one of the points to be amended on the on the same day as election !
( link )
Also a book some may want to read ( Link )

goldie fish

xflyer wrote: »

Seroiusly Gizmo, you have to realise how things were back then. I am not comfortable with the supposed facts because it goes against my own anti Republican viewpoint. But it was far easier to blame the IRA than it was to admit a blue on blue incident. At the time I was in the FCA and we knew who the enemy was.

Goldie fish, I know where you are coming from. But this isn't stuff gleaned from the internet. It was on a bus on a rainy day in the Wicklow mountains, no attribution, no evidence. But the ballistic 'evidence' isn't what you think. Gawd this pains me. I really don't like this and I don't want to be seen as an apologist for the provos or some kind of conspiracy nut but we are not being told the truth.

I think Garda Sheen and his family deserve that.

I still blame the IRA though, my IRA friend and I have some robust debates, let me tell you.

The Man's name was Sheehan. I worked with people who were there on the day. They know what they saw.

PeterIanStaker

Sir, – Given Martin McGuinness’s new-found loyalty to the State, perhaps he can now assist the gardaí in identifying the Provisional IRA killers of my father, Pte Patrick Kelly and Gda Gary Sheehan, murdered during the rescue of the kidnapped Don Tidey on December 16th, 1983.

My father was a proud member of Óglaigh na hÉireann, who after having served on three tours of duty in the Lebanon and one in Cyprus was killed doing his duty to this State, in a forest outside Ballinamore in Co Leitrim, by so-called fellow Irishmen who dared to call themselves patriots.

To add to the pain and suffering endured by his family left behind, Provisional Sinn Féin has continuously denied the PIRA’s responsibility for the murders, and instead spread malicious rumours to the effect that the deaths on that fateful day were a result of a “friendly fire” incident. In case anyone is in any doubt, we the Kelly family have seen the post mortem results under the Freedom of Information Act and it indeed confirms that the bullets used to kill Paddy were fired from illegal weapons used by the kidnap gang. Fact.

So after everything we have endured it is devastating for us to see Mr McGuinness, a leading member of the PIRA terrorist movement of many years to make an opportunistic and insensitive bid for the Irish presidency, which includes the titular title commander and chief of the Irish Defence Forces.

We all want a peaceful, prosperous future, but we demand that Mr McGuinness gives Paddy and Gary the justice they deserve by revealing the identities of the killers (believed to be Maze prison escapees) who were comrades of his.
We demand the information now so that, even post the Belfast Agreement and the time that has elapsed, we can achieve successful prosecutions for the murder of two true peacemakers and patriots, not in the future as part of any truth and reconciliation committee, but now; and we make no apologies for it.

Over to you now Mr McGuinness, the ball is firmly in your court. We, Paddy Kelly’s family await your response with much anticipation that justice can finally be done for Paddy and Gary, two brave servants of this State. – Yours, etc,
DAVID KELLY,
Moate,
Co Westmeath.


link: http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224305638437

Morlar

There is no such thing as Provisional Sinn Fein to the best of my knowledge, unless he means Republican Sinn Fein which is a different thing completely.

I also do not think McGuinness loyalty to the state is 'new found', he has after all been working for peace for the last 20 or so years. Risking his life in the process.

I do not know who fired the shots that killed either Private Patrick Kelly or Garda Gary Sheehan. I don't think it is that important when the men are dead. Even if he was killed in a blue on blue incident the moral responsibility rests with the IRA. However this was not the only victim of the troubles. Nor was one group the only group who were involved in violence. There was a context to this violence & I don't see the sense in taking one incident in total isolation to the overwhelming context.

Just yesterday the family of Pat Finucane (an unarmed catholic solicitor who was murdered) were given short shrift at Downing street by David Cameron in their quest for a full independent & public inquiry into the murder of their father, who was in their view, murdered with British security forces collusion :

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/pat-finucane-family-vents-fury-at-cameron-over-murder-inquiry-refusal-16062832.html

Downing Street said Mr Cameron told the Finucanes that investigations by Judge Cory and John Stevens, then deputy chief constable of Cambridgeshire Police, demonstrated there had been state collusion in the murder.

"The Prime Minister expressed his profound sympathy for the family and said it was clear from Stevens and Cory that state collusion had taken place in Mr Finucane's murder," a Downing Street spokeswoman said.

"He accepted these conclusions and on behalf of the Government he apologised to the family.

Their father had previously been directly threatened by the security forces with murder.

I think all of the victims deserve some kind of truth and reconcilliation process such as the one outlined earlier. Unfortunately there is not yet widespread political will for this to happen. The consensus seems to be 'pretend it didn't happen and move on' or things could slip backwards.

Just yesterday a toddler was injured by a 15 strong loyalist sectarian 'hammer gang' , the reason I post this link is to add a reminder to the sort of context which created this violence :

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/catholic-toddler-traumatised-after-hammer-attack-on-home-16062683.html

I know anyone posting anything not in agreement with that IT letter is going to get flamed here but I think that some sense of balance is useful in the discussion. Understandable and sympathetic as that IT letter is it does not present a balanced view imo.

bastados

In peace time , soldiers should stand aside..this applies to McGuinness , so those who suffered can grieve with a little bit of respect.

gizmo555

xflyer wrote: »

Seroiusly Gizmo, you have to realise how things were back then. I am not comfortable with the supposed facts because it goes against my own anti Republican viewpoint. But it was far easier to blame the IRA than it was to admit a blue on blue incident. At the time I was in the FCA and we knew who the enemy was.

Spare me the condescension please. You posted here claiming it was "generally accepted" that Gda Sheehan was killed by friendly fire. When you're pressed on this, it turns out your assertion boils down to you know someone who knows something and the information is "out there". Is your username "xflyer" a partial anagram of the "X-Files", by any chance?

For what it's worth, by the way, I served in the FCA myself from 1979 to 1984 and I know perfectly well how things were back then, thanks very much.