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HSE to axe all overtime, and increase normal working hours to justify it.

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Comments

  • #32
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    CiaranC wrote: »
    To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

    They are leaving, in part, because the AREN'T GETTING ANY TRAINING


  • #33
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    CiaranC wrote: »
    To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

    Ireland. The government pays for under half of my training, so I'm the majority shareholder in myself. Which is more than I can say for 90% arts/engineering/science graduates who emigrate and don't get the "we paid for your education" argument thrown at them.


  • #34
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    opinion guy wrote: »
    They are leaving, in part, because the AREN'T GETTING ANY TRAINING
    i think he meant medical school, which the tax payer directly pays for.


  • #35
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    Biologic wrote: »
    Ireland. The government pays for under half of my training, so I'm the majority shareholder in myself. Which is more than I can say for 90% arts/engineering/science graduates who emigrate and don't get the "we paid for your education" argument thrown at them.
    the tax payer pays for all of undergraduate medical training, and they already paid for your first degree if you're GEM, and they're still paying half of your GEM fees. your argument is invalid.


  • #36
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    imported_guy wrote: »
    the tax payer pays for all of undergraduate medical training, and they already paid for your first degree if you're GEM, and they're still paying half of your GEM fees. your argument is invalid.

    I was really hoping you'd say that.
    No, the government does not pay 50% of my fees. They pay substantially less than that. So much so that each year the difference adds up to about the cost of an undergrad year in my first degree. Taking into account the cost of my self-financed MSc, I've outpaid the government on fees alone (not to mention living expenses and the fact that I've worked for 6 of those years).
    Even if you were right and the cost of my undergrad outweighed GEM (you're not, see above), that'd only add more weight to my point that other graduate emigrants should come under the same moral blackmail as doctors.
    As usual, your argument is invalid.


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  • #37
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    troll.gif


  • #38
    ThatDrGuy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭ThatDrGuy


    LOL Robfowl.

    Ive seen the accounts of the medical school I went to. The international students paying 35,000 + more than subsidise the whole thing. The irish goverement does pay per head (irish students are in minority) but since the school generates a surplus this gets spent on maintaining other depts - the black hole arts block. Even if the irish gov didnt contribute a cent the medical school would be there as it is such a huge money spinner for the college. Long story short the malaysian goverement and international students paid for my education - not the tax payer. If anything i should spend some time in malaysia as a thank you


  • #39
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    Biologic wrote: »
    I was really hoping you'd say that.
    No, the government does not pay 50% of my fees. They pay substantially less than that. So much so that each year the difference adds up to about the cost of an undergrad year in my first degree. Taking into account the cost of my self-financed MSc, I've outpaid the government on fees alone (not to mention living expenses and the fact that I've worked for 6 of those years).
    Even if you were right and the cost of my undergrad outweighed GEM (you're not, see above), that'd only add more weight to my point that other graduate emigrants should come under the same moral blackmail as doctors.
    As usual, your argument is invalid.

    I used half as a figure of speech, the HEA makes a contribution of 11000 euro out of 26,000 (used to be 13000, so they did pay atleast exactly half few years back) currently its 11000/26000, im sorry they pay 42.30769% of your fees, which is alot less than half :rolleyes:

    saying you contributed to your education doesnt take away the fact that the tax payer also contributed to your education, you cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.

    also you completely disregarded my point about the undergraduate medical education fees being paid by the tax payer.


  • #40
    Chiparus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    My med school received no government support while I was there. I owe the Malaysian, British and Qatarian governments as well as a number of private individuals as they supplemented my education. But nothing to the Irish government.
    But they insist in me paying "taxes" to pay for Irish students to go to medical school. Plus they made me work for no pay and sometimes half pay if I was lucky.

    Robbery.


  • #41
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    imported_guy wrote: »
    I used half as a figure of speech, the HEA makes a contribution of 11000 euro out of 26,000 (used to be 13000, so they did pay atleast exactly half few years back) currently its 11000/26000, im sorry they pay 42.30769% of your fees, which is alot less than half :rolleyes:

    Nope, you said the gov'ment pays for at least half of my education. They don't. If you're allowed to be pedantic about things, so am I. And while we're being pedantic, the fees are 26555, so they pay 41.4234% of my fees. You're even wrong with a calculator ;).

    imported_guy wrote: »
    saying you contributed to your education doesnt take away the fact that the tax payer also contributed to your education
    What's your point? I appreciate what the government have done, but where are you going with this?

    imported_guy wrote: »
    you cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.
    I really don't see how that dodgy analogy fits in with my sentiment that I out payed the government in my degree.
    imported_guy wrote: »
    also you completely disregarded my point about the undergraduate medical education fees being paid by the tax payer.
    I'm a graduate medical student. I don't care about your point regarding undergraduate medical students. I'm talking about this purely from a financial perspective and their fee structure is totally different. You cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.


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  • #42
    foreverandever
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭foreverandever


    Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

    I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?


  • #43
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    foreverandever wrote: »
    Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

    I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?

    Nope, irish doctors don't owe any irish government or population anything mroe than any other person who got any other degree like arts or engineering. It's not a charity, it's your own time and your own life, like anybody else who the "tax payer" funded (i.e., around 20% of the population incl. the parents of said medical student).

    Seeing as doctors are singled out constantly and having contracts broken constantly, you should be happy they stuck around as long as they did. Maybe if they weren't ridiculed and bullied constantly professionally and in the media, you would have some goodwill, but that has long since departed.


  • #44
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    imported_guy wrote: »
    i think he meant medical school, which the tax payer directly pays for.


    Great so lets get interns then into theatre and have them operate, into cath lab and have them ...cath(!), into ...you get the drift.

    On Pat Kenny a few months ago Minister Reilly stated it costs 250,000 to put someone thru medical school. He then went on to say it costs 1,000,000 ti train them from intern level to consultant level. Pat The Plank in a rare show of quick wits, then immediately asked him 'are you saying you want them to go abroad for the more expensive part of the training'.....or words to that effect. At which point the Minister got very shifty and backtracked.

    Long and short of it is - they want docs to go abroad and always have. Problem is they have stopped coming back.

    And frankly I believe Irish docs owe it to the patients to fight the current system, even if they only way they can register their fight is by leaving and forcing change.


  • #45
    foreverandever
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭foreverandever


    dissed doc wrote: »
    foreverandever wrote: »
    Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

    I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?

    Nope, irish doctors don't owe any irish government or population anything mroe than any other person who got any other degree like arts or engineering. It's not a charity, it's your own time and your own life, like anybody else who the "tax payer" funded (i.e., around 20% of the population incl. the parents of said medical student).

    Seeing as doctors are singled out constantly and having contracts broken constantly, you should be happy they stuck around as long as they did. Maybe if they weren't ridiculed and bullied constantly professionally and in the media, you would have some goodwill, but that has long since departed.

    yes I agree, Arts and Engineering students should give something back to the government but unfortunately there are zero jobs for alot of them in Ireland while Ireland is crying out for doctors. I've only been interning for a few months but while the work is hard it is rewarding and at the moment the money is fine. I'm not out to buy a merc for a few years(joking by the way!) I think the biggest thing I notice in the hospital is other doctors attitudes and nurses to be honest. It's this woe is me attitude and not wanting to work hard. Now that's just my opinion from what I experienced but I think the negativity in the hospital would be the only reason I'd ever leave and that's down to the other workers, not necessarily the HSE!


  • #46
    tatabubbly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭tatabubbly


    Guys, you are talking about doctors here, the people who save your lives and everyone elses in a crisis. They, in fairness, need more sleep than the rest of us to be in tip top form. You don't want a tired surgeon/doctor to be treating you!

    So they don't pay for their education, they get the pleasure of being taxed to the hilt once they leave college so they more than pay for themselves as well as every other graduate, irrespectable of subject.

    Those who leave may return after the HSE has bucked up their act and realised that they need to treat their staff better. I'd love to be a doctor but I don't think I could hack the lifestyle.


  • #47
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    mossyc123 wrote: »
    A lot of Organisations have increased Working Hours in order to save Labour costs over the last few years.

    It's well known that Nurses are encouraged to take all Sick Leave entitlements in order to make that generous entitlement look necessary.

    No reason that HSE workers should be treated any differently to other employees in this country.

    Savings need to be made and reform will hopefully bring these about.

    + 1, i'm private sector and i've had to agree to 4hrs extra a week to stay employed, so problem........ so man up


  • #48
    mapaco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 155 ✭✭mapaco


    Doom wrote: »
    + 1, i'm private sector and i've had to agree to 4hrs extra a week to stay employed, so problem........ so man up

    so i should grow a pair and do 44 hours a week????
    yeah right


  • #49
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,848 ✭✭✭take everything


    mapaco wrote: »
    i work in the HSE and it boils my blood to see all the 'suits' wandering round the hospital with blank paper on clipboards pretending to do something important-while i for one sometimes have to change my scrubs for all the sweating.

    we are run ragged in there and no one cares because it is still seen as some sort of 'vocation'-bullsh*t-i just want to pay my mortgage and come home without an injury.
    my sister works in the private sector and i just love hearing her tales of dancing on the production line and bonuses throughout the year.

    i refuse to work overtime cos it all goes on tax and i wouldnt be physically able.

    stop tarring us with the brush of the overpaid fatcats in hospital management-i can bet most of you dont come home from work crying after a day of physical and verbal abuse from increasingly irate patients who are left 48 hours or more languishing on a corridor.

    NONE OF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON OUR PAY UNTIL YOU HAVE WORKED IN THE 3RD WORLD CONDITIONS WE PUT UP WITH EVERYDAY.

    we dont get paid half enough for the things we do-but unfortunately the only way people cop on to this is when they become a patient themselves.

    That's exactly what it is, exploitation of the "vocation" thing.


  • #50
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    mapaco wrote: »
    so i should grow a pair and do 44 hours a week????
    yeah right

    Not too sure if you're being sarcastic but most Doc's of my vintage have done 48hr shifts while only getting paid 1/2 time.
    A 44 hour week still seems a lifetime away....


  • #51
    ThatDrGuy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭ThatDrGuy


    foreverandever wrote: »
    yes I agree, Arts and Engineering students should give something back to the government but unfortunately there are zero jobs for alot of them in Ireland while Ireland is crying out for doctors. I've only been interning for a few months but while the work is hard it is rewarding and at the moment the money is fine. I'm not out to buy a merc for a few years(joking by the way!) I think the biggest thing I notice in the hospital is other doctors attitudes and nurses to be honest. It's this woe is me attitude and not wanting to work hard. Now that's just my opinion from what I experienced but I think the negativity in the hospital would be the only reason I'd ever leave and that's down to the other workers, not necessarily the HSE!

    Enjoy it while it lasts. Intern year is by far your best year in medicine. Its all down hill from there.


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  • #52
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,521 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    ThatDrGuy wrote: »
    Enjoy it while it lasts. Intern year is by far your best year in medicine. Its all down hill from there.

    Have to disagree with you there, especially as when I got my last pay ( overtime a month in arrears) and found I was taking home 2.70 an hour after tax.


  • #53
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,521 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Article in todays Sunday Business Post: HSE has instructed all hospitals to pay for all hours worked including unrostered.

    Interesting as this may be in response to the labour court recommendation, or the realisation that not paying NCHDs will lead to more leaving and push up the costs as they would have to pay for agency workers.


  • #54
    CB1989
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭CB1989


    For anyone interested in the article in the Sunday Business Post

    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/hse-forces-uturn-on-junior-doctors-pay-59358.html


  • #55
    ThatDrGuy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭ThatDrGuy


    Why whats this ?
    iyh43s.jpg

    Could it be a memo from this time last year saying exactly the same thing ? I call this the annual HSE christmas shaft. Since a lot of the hospitals that are the most abusive with regard to overtime are the teaching hospitals (which the HSE technically doesnt control) this is their way of washing their hands of the unrostered over time thing. Not a damn thing happened last year, not a damn thing will happen this year. You'd be better off writing to Santa for your money.


  • #56
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Apparently the cause of the health services woes is that the doctors union needs to be broken!!!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75403542&postcount=185


    AHHAHAAHAHAAAHHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
    ahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaahhahah
    ...........oxygen......need oxygen........


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwF7n8WyOoU


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