HSE to axe all overtime, and increase normal working hours to justify it.

Jane5

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hse-considers-axing-overtime-to-save-25m-524483.html

Ummm, over my dead rotting corpse perhaps?

The solution to understaffing and over reliance on overtime is categorically NOT increasing the amount of normal working hours so you don't have to pay for them.

This will prompt an all out strike.

imported_guy

HSE doesnt really care about what you think or how everyone would protest, protesting short of a violent revolution never works (even the violent revolution bit is arguable), in HSE's opinion this tactic could work if they bring in a few more of those pakistani and indian doctors, and from now on even nurses and other healthcare staff as well, but even the doctors they bought in earlier this year are being meldoramatic these days.

mossyc123

A lot of Organisations have increased Working Hours in order to save Labour costs over the last few years.

It's well known that Nurses are encouraged to take all Sick Leave entitlements in order to make that generous entitlement look necessary.

No reason that HSE workers should be treated any differently to other employees in this country.

Savings need to be made and reform will hopefully bring these about.

foreverandever

I can see where the hse is coming from because the overtime bill is huge but i think increasing normal working hours is a bit of a joke. People have to be able to have a life and especially when you've children you'd rather get home in the evening to them. But i guess at the moment people are working extra hours and in some places not for any money so there has to be a balance.

mossyc123

What are standard hours for Nurses these days?

Am I right in saying it is 3 12 Hour Shifts a week plus and extra day a month?

That's what I heard on RTE News yesterday.

CiaranC

How can they increase "normal" working hours without going over 40 hours and pushing them into overtime again? How many (few) hours are these people working? Are they part time or what? Why would part time staff get overtime?

lonestargirl

It depends on what they are asking for. I work a 35 hour week, I would have no problem being asked to work a little more. It would be just people coming more in line with the hours worked in the private sector. I do know people who have 32.5 hour contracts - that's no really on anymore.

Andrew33

WOW! apart from frontline staff who deserve every penny they're paid the rest of the HSE (and public service in general) is just a massively bloated, under achieving moribund juggernaut that think the tax payer can continue to pay for their extended morning coffee, hour and a half lunch break and afternoon break while they moan about not getting paid overtime to do the job they've already been paid to do during their normal hours. It makes me f-ucking sick to see my collegues working 65-70 hrs a week just to keep their heads above water while the public service continues to suck this country dry. Get off your holes and start pulling your weight:mad:

Spacedog

HSE is a bureaucratic quango set up do deflect attention from the Minister for Health. If you do strike, negotiate only directly with the minister, and if they want to gut jobs, HSE-do-nothings should be the first to go.

HSE are a relic from the Progressive Domocrats era. they're job is to cook the numbers to make a run down health system look good on paper and to deflect criticism from the minister. They absorb scandals (minister: "it's not my fault, ask the HSE!"), and if they could they would break the wheels off trollys so they can call them beds.

If i get sick, I don't want a nurse of doctor seeing me after being working for 18 hours straight.

If the minister for health has a problem paying overtime, then the answer to to hire more staff, drop the points for studying medicine, by adding more courses in parallel (keep same standards for becoming a doctor).

The government or the IMF don't care because they have their own hospitals with no waiting lines, with well paid staff with half the hours.

If some kiddy noob user starts spouting about you being compared to other private business. I suggest you compare yourself to the private sector of your own profession. The truth is most of us have never steped in the door of any of these hotel hospitals.

mossyc123

lonestargirl wrote: »

It depends on what they are asking for. I work a 35 hour week, I would have no problem being asked to work a little more. It would be just people coming more in line with the hours worked in the private sector. I do know people who have 32.5 hour contracts - that's no really on anymore.

As in every Hour worked after 32.5 is paid at Overtime Rates (time and a half?,Double Time?)

If so, that really isn't acceptable.

lonestargirl

mossyc123 wrote: »

As in every Hour worked after 32.5 is paid at Overtime Rates (time and a half?,Double Time?)

No, we have a complete overtime ban. Any hours worked over your contract can be carried as time-in-lieu. There aren't many on those 32.5 hour contracts, they are a bit of a relic. It's also unfair on newer staff to have discrepencies in the contract hours across a department.

@Andrew33, these are frontline staff. I'm not saying we should be doing 70 hours a week but I don't think an increase to 40 is unreasonable (or perhaps loosing a day or two holidays a year).

QuiteInterestin

lonestargirl wrote: »

It depends on what they are asking for. I work a 35 hour week, I would have no problem being asked to work a little more. It would be just people coming more in line with the hours worked in the private sector. I do know people who have 32.5 hour contracts - that's no really on anymore.

+1, I'm the same, work a 35 hour week but wouldn't mind being asked to work a 39 hour week/have annual leave reduced to help balance the books. As long as it would apply to everyone, not only certain people who started after a certain date etc. I know some on 33hour weeks with flexitime so anything extra is taken as time in lieu, others on 35 hour weeks who started before a certain date and so have longer breaks then others who started later etc. There's so many different type of contracts/different conditions across the HSE that any changes would have to apply to everyone, no exceptions!

opinion guy

Yes but even if you guys want to do that your unions will never agree to it.

lonestargirl

opinion guy wrote: »

Yes but even if you guys want to do that your unions will never agree to it.

I know :mad:, the health unions don't seem to be in touch with the reality of life and opinions on the ground.

Breezer

In the hospital I work in, there is one computer available for junior doctors to do their admin work on in the evenings. Instead of investing €300-€400 for a second computer, which would have itself paid for within a week, the HSE pays us all overtime every evening while we queue to use this machine. What do we do on this machine? A lot of the time we copy figures from blood results down onto flow sheets for ward rounds, because the software isn't capable of printing them in a format that will show a trend of results over time. Just one small example of the madness that exists within the HSE.

opinion guy

lonestargirl wrote: »

I know :mad:, the health unions don't seem to be in touch with the reality of life and opinions on the ground.

The unions have their own interests.
Question is - what can you do about it ?

Traumadoc

imported_guy wrote: »

HSE doesnt really care about what you think or how everyone would protest, protesting short of a violent revolution never works (even the violent revolution bit is arguable), in HSE's opinion this tactic could work if they bring in a few more of those pakistani and indian doctors, and from now on even nurses and other healthcare staff as well, but even the doctors they bought in earlier this year are being meldoramatic these days.

I think "melodramatic" is a bit of an insult, these doctors have been kept here for 4 months now , some still without pay.
The way they have been treated to keep the folly of reconfiguration going is shocking.

opinion guy

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think "melodramatic" is a bit of an insult, these doctors have been kept here for 4 months now , some still without pay.
The way they have been treated to keep the folly of reconfiguration going is shocking.

Indeed.
I missed this melodramatic crack . Imported guy what are on? Melodramatic ? They've been treated really badly. Disgraceful stuff!

Biologic

Another reason to leave Ireland once I qualify, not that I needed one.

Dr Galen

Biologic wrote: »

Another reason to leave Ireland once I qualify, not that I needed one.

imported_guy

opinion guy wrote: »

Indeed.
I missed this melodramatic crack . Imported guy what are on? Melodramatic ? They've been treated really badly. Disgraceful stuff!

im from one of the aforementioned countries, trust me, this is a five star treatment compared to what they're used to.

Traumadoc

Does not make it acceptable. Bringing professionals over here with inflated promises of pay. Then leaving them isolated in B+Bs for months - Meals provided in the hospitals- as long as you did not want to fast during ramadam, Some weekends the resturant was closed.

Oh you will be caught in a turf war between the HSE and the IMC.

I am sure you are from one of those countries but I do not believe you are aware of the differences between how doctors are treated in these countries.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61511435&postcount=1

imported_guy

Traumadoc wrote: »

Does not make it acceptable. Bringing professionals over here with inflated promises of pay. Then leaving them isolated in B+Bs for months - Meals provided in the hospitals- as long as you did not want to fast during ramadam, Some weekends the resturant was closed.

Oh you will be caught in a turf war between the HSE and the IMC.

I am sure you are from one of those countries but I do not believe you are aware of the differences between how doctors are treated in these countries.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61511435&postcount=1

white people call a good belting child abuse, eastern people call it parenting... see how it works?

opinion guy

Ok I'm officially ignoring the troll now

CB1989

The way I see it, its the perfect way for the HSE and the government to completely half all doctor's salaries in a number of years. Removing overtime and increasing working hours is so ridiculous it makes sense. Any newly qualified Irish educated doctor knows they can earn much better but also just earn money for the hours that they've actually worked (instead of this time in lieu nonsense) in countries like australia new zealand canada and the states. There is already a large emigration of junior doctors to these countries, if these new wages come in, it will lead to a mass exodus of 90%+ of junior doctors. But, this massive brain drain in ireland will be filled by doctors from countries like pakistan and india like what we're seeing already, who are more than happy to work these hours for this wage as, what i can only presume, is a better wage then in their home countries. And in a few years these foreign junior doctors will be in senior posts and won't be looking for the same inflated wage that senior doctors of a few years ago were getting so I see this as a whole move to edge out expensive home bred doctors for their cheaper foreign counterparts.
P.S. i in no way want to belittle any foreign doctor, I feel they are as competent and as well trained and educated as any Irish doctor, but as they're coming from lower wage countries, i feel their willingness to work for lower wages will force many irish doctors abroad. I would also like to remind people in the private sector that to be a doctor is a huge investment. For me personally I gave up a social life from the age of 16 for two years to study for the leaving cert, and then worked my ass off for 6 years for an undergraduate medical degree. Not looking for any sympathy whatsoever for my life choices, this is the life I chose, but if I work an 80 hour week, then I expect to get paid for an 80 hour week in cash, not time in lieu!

Traumadoc

imported_guy wrote: »

white people call a good belting child abuse, eastern people call it parenting... see how it works?

Thats why when people are trafficked here it is illegal, even though the traffickers say "it is much worse for them in their own country"

We should not and do not accept people being treated like this.
For years the HSE and the department of health carried on like this. Refusing to pay over time, then refusing to pay after 65 hours, then paying only half time over 65 hours. Eventually paying for the work done but refusing to comply with EU legislation.

I cannot believe the way these doctors have been treated.
I know of one doctor who has been unpaid for 3 months, while his wife and kids are in India.
I cannot believe you think that they are being melodramatic.

opinion guy

Meanwhile in Scotland doc dies driving home after night shift:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/10/16/worked-to-death-exhausted-young-doctor-veers-off-road-and-dies-after-gruelling-nightshift-86908-23492372/#.TpxQ7SZGHDh.facebook

ThatDrGuy

Again I say it. Just leave. Ireland has no future as a country and medicine in Ireland is done for. Im starting in NZ soon. Im contracted for 40 hours a week and I may occasionally be asked to do 46. All OT is paid for, training actually happens and the career has a future. I think there are 3 out of my graduating class of 100+ left in Irish medicine and all of them are leaving this year. Stop complaining - its not going to improve, the country is bankrupt and you guys are the easiest targets. Its tragic if you cant leave because of family etc but there are still much better jobs out there in big pharma, public health etc than hospital med/surgery. Get out before its too late.

4Sheets

Ireland is rapidly becoming a 3rd world nation..once again

CiaranC

To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

imported_guy

CiaranC wrote: »

To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

probably ireland, probably the tax payer, and yes they arguably got shafted sicne they're not getting the dividends of what they invested into :rolleyes:

opinion guy

CiaranC wrote: »

To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

They are leaving, in part, because the AREN'T GETTING ANY TRAINING

Biologic

CiaranC wrote: »

To the guys who are leaving, where did you get your training? Who paid for it?

Ireland. The government pays for under half of my training, so I'm the majority shareholder in myself. Which is more than I can say for 90% arts/engineering/science graduates who emigrate and don't get the "we paid for your education" argument thrown at them.

imported_guy

opinion guy wrote: »

They are leaving, in part, because the AREN'T GETTING ANY TRAINING

i think he meant medical school, which the tax payer directly pays for.

imported_guy

Biologic wrote: »

Ireland. The government pays for under half of my training, so I'm the majority shareholder in myself. Which is more than I can say for 90% arts/engineering/science graduates who emigrate and don't get the "we paid for your education" argument thrown at them.

the tax payer pays for all of undergraduate medical training, and they already paid for your first degree if you're GEM, and they're still paying half of your GEM fees. your argument is invalid.

Biologic

imported_guy wrote: »

the tax payer pays for all of undergraduate medical training, and they already paid for your first degree if you're GEM, and they're still paying half of your GEM fees. your argument is invalid.

I was really hoping you'd say that.
No, the government does not pay 50% of my fees. They pay substantially less than that. So much so that each year the difference adds up to about the cost of an undergrad year in my first degree. Taking into account the cost of my self-financed MSc, I've outpaid the government on fees alone (not to mention living expenses and the fact that I've worked for 6 of those years).
Even if you were right and the cost of my undergrad outweighed GEM (you're not, see above), that'd only add more weight to my point that other graduate emigrants should come under the same moral blackmail as doctors.
As usual, your argument is invalid.

RobFowl

ThatDrGuy

LOL Robfowl.

Ive seen the accounts of the medical school I went to. The international students paying 35,000 + more than subsidise the whole thing. The irish goverement does pay per head (irish students are in minority) but since the school generates a surplus this gets spent on maintaining other depts - the black hole arts block. Even if the irish gov didnt contribute a cent the medical school would be there as it is such a huge money spinner for the college. Long story short the malaysian goverement and international students paid for my education - not the tax payer. If anything i should spend some time in malaysia as a thank you

imported_guy

Biologic wrote: »

I was really hoping you'd say that.
No, the government does not pay 50% of my fees. They pay substantially less than that. So much so that each year the difference adds up to about the cost of an undergrad year in my first degree. Taking into account the cost of my self-financed MSc, I've outpaid the government on fees alone (not to mention living expenses and the fact that I've worked for 6 of those years).
Even if you were right and the cost of my undergrad outweighed GEM (you're not, see above), that'd only add more weight to my point that other graduate emigrants should come under the same moral blackmail as doctors.
As usual, your argument is invalid.

I used half as a figure of speech, the HEA makes a contribution of 11000 euro out of 26,000 (used to be 13000, so they did pay atleast exactly half few years back) currently its 11000/26000, im sorry they pay 42.30769% of your fees, which is alot less than half :rolleyes:

saying you contributed to your education doesnt take away the fact that the tax payer also contributed to your education, you cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.

also you completely disregarded my point about the undergraduate medical education fees being paid by the tax payer.

Chiparus

My med school received no government support while I was there. I owe the Malaysian, British and Qatarian governments as well as a number of private individuals as they supplemented my education. But nothing to the Irish government.
But they insist in me paying "taxes" to pay for Irish students to go to medical school. Plus they made me work for no pay and sometimes half pay if I was lucky.

Robbery.

Biologic

imported_guy wrote: »

I used half as a figure of speech, the HEA makes a contribution of 11000 euro out of 26,000 (used to be 13000, so they did pay atleast exactly half few years back) currently its 11000/26000, im sorry they pay 42.30769% of your fees, which is alot less than half :rolleyes:

Nope, you said the gov'ment pays for at least half of my education. They don't. If you're allowed to be pedantic about things, so am I. And while we're being pedantic, the fees are 26555, so they pay 41.4234% of my fees. You're even wrong with a calculator .

imported_guy wrote: »

saying you contributed to your education doesnt take away the fact that the tax payer also contributed to your education

What's your point? I appreciate what the government have done, but where are you going with this?

imported_guy wrote: »

you cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.

I really don't see how that dodgy analogy fits in with my sentiment that I out payed the government in my degree.

imported_guy wrote: »

also you completely disregarded my point about the undergraduate medical education fees being paid by the tax payer.

I'm a graduate medical student. I don't care about your point regarding undergraduate medical students. I'm talking about this purely from a financial perspective and their fee structure is totally different. You cant SUBTRACT 25 apples from 32 oranges and get an answer in cows per square acre.

foreverandever

Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?

dissed doc

foreverandever wrote: »

Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?

Nope, irish doctors don't owe any irish government or population anything mroe than any other person who got any other degree like arts or engineering. It's not a charity, it's your own time and your own life, like anybody else who the "tax payer" funded (i.e., around 20% of the population incl. the parents of said medical student).

Seeing as doctors are singled out constantly and having contracts broken constantly, you should be happy they stuck around as long as they did. Maybe if they weren't ridiculed and bullied constantly professionally and in the media, you would have some goodwill, but that has long since departed.

opinion guy

imported_guy wrote: »

i think he meant medical school, which the tax payer directly pays for.

Great so lets get interns then into theatre and have them operate, into cath lab and have them ...cath(!), into ...you get the drift.

On Pat Kenny a few months ago Minister Reilly stated it costs 250,000 to put someone thru medical school. He then went on to say it costs 1,000,000 ti train them from intern level to consultant level. Pat The Plank in a rare show of quick wits, then immediately asked him 'are you saying you want them to go abroad for the more expensive part of the training'.....or words to that effect. At which point the Minister got very shifty and backtracked.

Long and short of it is - they want docs to go abroad and always have. Problem is they have stopped coming back.

And frankly I believe Irish docs owe it to the patients to fight the current system, even if they only way they can register their fight is by leaving and forcing change.

foreverandever

dissed doc wrote: »

foreverandever wrote: »

Well I think if you work in Ireland you're going to have to pay taxes regardless of how much you paid the medical school during training.

I do feel that the only way the Irish health system is going to improve is if Irish doctors stay here and try to fix things. A case of ask not what your country can do for you! Like most of the post grads in medicine surely researched it and realised what they were getting themselves into before they started studying?

Nope, irish doctors don't owe any irish government or population anything mroe than any other person who got any other degree like arts or engineering. It's not a charity, it's your own time and your own life, like anybody else who the "tax payer" funded (i.e., around 20% of the population incl. the parents of said medical student).

Seeing as doctors are singled out constantly and having contracts broken constantly, you should be happy they stuck around as long as they did. Maybe if they weren't ridiculed and bullied constantly professionally and in the media, you would have some goodwill, but that has long since departed.

yes I agree, Arts and Engineering students should give something back to the government but unfortunately there are zero jobs for alot of them in Ireland while Ireland is crying out for doctors. I've only been interning for a few months but while the work is hard it is rewarding and at the moment the money is fine. I'm not out to buy a merc for a few years(joking by the way!) I think the biggest thing I notice in the hospital is other doctors attitudes and nurses to be honest. It's this woe is me attitude and not wanting to work hard. Now that's just my opinion from what I experienced but I think the negativity in the hospital would be the only reason I'd ever leave and that's down to the other workers, not necessarily the HSE!

tatabubbly

Guys, you are talking about doctors here, the people who save your lives and everyone elses in a crisis. They, in fairness, need more sleep than the rest of us to be in tip top form. You don't want a tired surgeon/doctor to be treating you!

So they don't pay for their education, they get the pleasure of being taxed to the hilt once they leave college so they more than pay for themselves as well as every other graduate, irrespectable of subject.

Those who leave may return after the HSE has bucked up their act and realised that they need to treat their staff better. I'd love to be a doctor but I don't think I could hack the lifestyle.

Doom

mossyc123 wrote: »

A lot of Organisations have increased Working Hours in order to save Labour costs over the last few years.

It's well known that Nurses are encouraged to take all Sick Leave entitlements in order to make that generous entitlement look necessary.

No reason that HSE workers should be treated any differently to other employees in this country.

Savings need to be made and reform will hopefully bring these about.

+ 1, i'm private sector and i've had to agree to 4hrs extra a week to stay employed, so problem........ so man up

mapaco

Doom wrote: »

+ 1, i'm private sector and i've had to agree to 4hrs extra a week to stay employed, so problem........ so man up

so i should grow a pair and do 44 hours a week????
yeah right

take everything

mapaco wrote: »

i work in the HSE and it boils my blood to see all the 'suits' wandering round the hospital with blank paper on clipboards pretending to do something important-while i for one sometimes have to change my scrubs for all the sweating.

we are run ragged in there and no one cares because it is still seen as some sort of 'vocation'-bullsh*t-i just want to pay my mortgage and come home without an injury.
my sister works in the private sector and i just love hearing her tales of dancing on the production line and bonuses throughout the year.

i refuse to work overtime cos it all goes on tax and i wouldnt be physically able.

stop tarring us with the brush of the overpaid fatcats in hospital management-i can bet most of you dont come home from work crying after a day of physical and verbal abuse from increasingly irate patients who are left 48 hours or more languishing on a corridor.

NONE OF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON OUR PAY UNTIL YOU HAVE WORKED IN THE 3RD WORLD CONDITIONS WE PUT UP WITH EVERYDAY.

we dont get paid half enough for the things we do-but unfortunately the only way people cop on to this is when they become a patient themselves.

That's exactly what it is, exploitation of the "vocation" thing.

RobFowl

mapaco wrote: »

so i should grow a pair and do 44 hours a week????
yeah right

Not too sure if you're being sarcastic but most Doc's of my vintage have done 48hr shifts while only getting paid 1/2 time.
A 44 hour week still seems a lifetime away....

ThatDrGuy

foreverandever wrote: »

yes I agree, Arts and Engineering students should give something back to the government but unfortunately there are zero jobs for alot of them in Ireland while Ireland is crying out for doctors. I've only been interning for a few months but while the work is hard it is rewarding and at the moment the money is fine. I'm not out to buy a merc for a few years(joking by the way!) I think the biggest thing I notice in the hospital is other doctors attitudes and nurses to be honest. It's this woe is me attitude and not wanting to work hard. Now that's just my opinion from what I experienced but I think the negativity in the hospital would be the only reason I'd ever leave and that's down to the other workers, not necessarily the HSE!

Enjoy it while it lasts. Intern year is by far your best year in medicine. Its all down hill from there.