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Crazy council plan for clontarf.

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24567…14

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    #32
    Inbox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Inbox


    I only read recently that sea levels arent rising anymore but are dropping. Can't remember where I read it though.


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    #33
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.


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    #34
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    latenia wrote: »
    I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.

    what a bizarre & petty comment. Believe it or not, some people like sea views & sea views add value to property, attract diners to restaurants etc, the prom in Clontarf is a hive of activity from dawn till dusk every day year round with walkers, cyclists, joggers.
    Dublin City Council need to realise that the residents of Clontarf and the surrounds have for years been extremely united against Dublin Port's many failed plans for a land infill in Dublin Bay and their bizarre and short-sighted plans will be met with resistence from a united & organised group of residents.


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    #35
    J K
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 468 ✭✭J K


    RMD wrote: »
    I extremely doubt it will hold off large sea swells, it could function along a river where it will confine the flow to the nearby river area but against head-on large sea swells I don't see it coping.


    Are you seeing a flaw in the design of the structure or in the materials used - concrete and steel? Does your prediction hold true for whatever specifications or size of wall and beams used or just for the one pictured in the link?


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    #36
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    bamboozle wrote: »
    some people like sea views & sea views add value to property, attract diners to restaurants etc, .

    What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

    People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.


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    #37
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

    See here:

    http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx


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    #38
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    Yahew wrote: »
    What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

    See here:

    http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx

    Was actually looking at that yesterday. If it's suitable, I think it could look quite
    well


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    #39
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Degsy wrote: »
    What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

    People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.

    Kinara, Restaurant 1014, Cafe Corvo, The Yacht, Sand Bar, Casa Pasta, Bay Restaurant

    i'm sure all the above will agree they have a strong passing trade of people who have gone for a walk along the prom and popped in for a bit to eat or a drink afterwards especially on a sunny day & the weekends.


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    #40
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Yahew wrote: »
    What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

    See here:

    http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx

    that looks very nice (considering the alternative!)


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    #41
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    bamboozle wrote: »
    Kinara, Restaurant 1014, Cafe Corvo, The Yacht, Sand Bar, Casa Pasta, Bay Restaurant

    i'm sure all the above will agree they have a strong passing trade of people who have gone for a walk along the prom and popped in for a bit to eat or a drink afterwards especially on a sunny day & the weekends.

    Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

    Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?


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    #42
    buscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭buscuit


    Degsy wrote: »
    What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

    People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.
    Degsy wrote: »
    Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

    Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

    Man, your comments are idiotic. You really add nothing to this discussion.

    From what I have heard (from someone that has lived in Clontarf for the last 60 years) is that there has actually only been one instance of flooding in that time. This is really about laying the groundwork to eventually reclaim a substantial part of the nature reserve, something DCC have been wanting to do for sometime.


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    #43
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Sand Bar overpriced? That's a first... Kinara's early bird is great value, Bay's lunches are good value too. 1014 does great deals and all profits go to charity.

    If I lived with a view of a bay I would be pissed off if they were going to build a wall blocking it, so would you Degsy, and you know it! There are plenty of unemployed highly skilled Irish architects and engineers that could come up with alternative, ingenious methods of flood defense. DCC are being lazy here. I cycle the coast a good bit and I love looking at the herons, egrets and curlews, as do lots of people. Blocking it is moronic, no matter how much disdain you hold for the coastal residents and businesses.


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    #44
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    bamboozle wrote: »
    what a bizarre & petty comment. Believe it or not, some people like sea views & sea views add value to property

    I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.


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    #45
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    latenia wrote: »
    I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.

    That blue wobbly stuff in between the shore and the port is actually sea. I like the port view, I used to sail and row from Poolbeg. I like watching the ships come in and out, the pilots racing up and down the wall, loads of people do.


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    #46
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    the focus on the wall parts is a distraction it will be mostly a sloping grass bund, I am surprised at the height, I had seen the plans which indicated around 1.75 height, it seemed people had accepted that, would water really get over 1.75 wall, or is it just waves,is there somewhere that explains that.

    800px-Clontarf_shore.jpg

    the view is not that great, http://www.reclaimthesea.com/images/clontarf_jetty001.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Clontarf_shore.jpg http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x48670e80ea27ac2f:0xa00c7a9973171a0,Dublin,+Co.+Fingal&gl=ie&ei=WKKZTqX1E4WyhAfj9-iKBA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ8gEwAA

    and the listing of graffitti among the problems just suburbian hysteria

    http://www.clontarfresidents.com/news/view/flood-defences-clontarf-latest-update
    thought this was an interesting comment from Martin Ó Treasaigh, maybe the council aren't thinking big enough.
    You might want to consult with a hydrographic engineer about the necessity of these defenses.
    The way the harbour is designed is to trap a large volume of water between the north and south Bull walls to create tidal scour at the entrance.
    The system was designed to have two relief systems to prevent too much pressure (water) in the harbour. One was the half height section of the north wall (from the Marian statue out to the North Bull Light) and the other was the gap in the north wall that was later bridged by the now iconic wooden bridge.
    There is a lot of detail about this design in the book about the history of Dublin port. It is also touched on briefly in this website: http://www.clontarfonline.com/bull_wall.htm
    When they built the causeway from Raheny across to the Bull Island they effectively closed off the essential 2nd relief valve to allow water out of the harbour when it is rising too high.
    Flooding only occurs when a strong easterly wind coincides with a high tide and usually heavy rain. In this situation there are two rivers, lots of streams and storm drains etc. pouring into the harbour enclosed by the north and south walls, but it cannot get out as the wind is forcing more seawater into the harbour entrance.
    This is when the excess water should be able to escape via the gap in the north wall (wooden bridge) and out into the bay around the Bull Island. Since it cannot escape this way it finds the next lowest or weakest spot, be it Clontarf or Ballybough or wherever, and floods it.
    The city council regularly quotes a tidal study stating that the causeway was built at a null point in the tidal stream, but was this data gathered during an easterly storm?
    I am not a Hydrographic Engineer, so I cannot state for certain that this is definitely the main issue, but I am sure it must be a contributory factor.
    If the 2nd relief valve was reinstated a much reduced defence for Clontarf might be feasible.

    why not remove that causeway and put back a bridge that whole area is silting up, more more looking like a field then a bay. presumably there are big pipes under that letting water through?

    it seems to be the narrowness of the area which exacerbates the problem and there were trying to make it even narrower by extending the port!

    I made this to show how much changes there has been in dublin bay, through human intervention,I agree clontarf hasn't had a seaview for 150 years
    http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2010/09/dublin-bay-coastline-google-timeline.html you'll need the plugin

    those that talk of property prices, whether it be the crash or the flooding they've gone accept it.

    this is good page
    http://www.floods.ie shows the flood reports


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    #47
    RMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    Degsy wrote: »
    Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

    Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

    I'd prefer to keep it as it is knowing it quite likely wont be flooded. I've lived here for 10+ years, in that time the area has only flooded once to a point where they had to close the seafront while the water was kept out of houses using sandbags, no damage was done.

    I have never seen nor heard of a situation where an 8 foot dyke was needed. I don't see why you're so against the opponents of it, you don't live in the area so it wont affect you regardless what happens. Really just seems you have some chip in your shoulder with Clontarf.


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    #48
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Degsy wrote: »
    The powers that be are quite happy to let the lagoon on the dollymount side silt up completley because they never thought to allow the sea to flow under the causeway.
    expectationlost wrote: »

    why not remove that causeway and put back a bridge that whole area is silting up, more more looking like a field then a bay.

    I find that very interesting
    Great post expectationlost, are you an engineer?

    I don't know a lot about the subject, had to google what tidal scour was :o
    But if that would help it seems a very simple and obvious solution. I wonder why the council aren't going with it


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    #49
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    mikemac wrote: »
    I find that very interesting
    Great post expectationlost, are you an engineer?

    I don't know a lot about the subject, had to google what tidal scour was :o
    But if that would help it seems a very simple and obvious solution. I wonder why the council aren't going with it

    sorry didn't make it clear that quote is from
    Martin Ó Treasaigh on

    http://www.clontarfresidents.com/news/view/flood-defences-clontarf-latest-update


    http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Water/WaterServicesProjects/SurfaceWaterProjects/CoastalFloodProtectionScheme/FileDownload,21667,en.pdf
    http://www.dublincity.ie/waterwasteenvironment/waterprojects/pages/coastalfloodingprojects.aspx#clontarf%20flood%20defence
    http://www.floodresiliencity.eu/files/file/FRC_in_den_Medien/IBM%20FRM%20Summit%20Tony%20Maguire.pdf
    http://www.greenparty.ie/ga/content/download/11679/131627/file/dublin%20flooding.pdf

    I do agree with dublin bay joe http://nearpodcast.org/pcast/?p=2780
    this is about the port


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    #50
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    big turnout at the protest http://www.thejournal.ie/clontarf-residents-protest-over-flood-wall-plans-255484-Oct2011/#slide-slideshow7


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    #51
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    latenia wrote: »
    I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.
    latenia wrote: »
    I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.

    I'm not from Clontarf or nor do I live there or know anybody who lives there, but I love the views along the cycle track.

    It's a mix of a view of the bay, the sea, the port and Bull Island -- most of the port tanks and things are about 800m or more from the Clontarf, so they look quite distance and with things like the Poolbeg chimneys, people tend to have a wide range of views on these from love to hate to everything in-between.

    Anyway, the sea, the bay, the port and Bull Island:

    178245.JPG
    178247.JPG
    178246.JPG


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    #52
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    i can't decide whether this is accurate or not
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=277853315579433&set=a.165482210149878.32897.129977137033719&type=1&ref=nf
    299897_277853315579433_129977137033719_937625_460091821_n.jpg
    http://www.clontarfresidents.com/_uploads/files/72905203.pdf

    he's made that a slope right?

    anyway dcc should have better visuals


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    #53
    dillo2k10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭dillo2k10


    mikemac wrote: »
    Flood-Protection-Systems-including-Glass-Wall-105795_image.jpg

    Any objections to one of these? Looks nicer then an earth bank

    Any little scrote caught smashing glass should be tossed into the sea

    I dont think anything like that would be reliable enough. If the water builds up against these and if even one of the "windows" breaks then the water will come rushing in causing an even bigger problem by the speed of the water flowing in.


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    #54
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    expectationlost wrote: »
    why not remove that causeway and put back a bridge that whole area is silting up, more more looking like a field then a bay. presumably there are big pipes under that letting water through?

    My grandparents lived in dollymount for 50 years and they said the causeway was deliberatly built with no way for the sea to wash through in order that parts of the bay could be reclaimed.

    And from the time the causeway was built the lagoon silted up alarmingly fast..the lagoon used to be popular with boating but it just became to shallow and muddy.


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    #55
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Degsy wrote: »
    Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

    Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

    you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder with Clontarf, perhaps you should take your comments to a restaurant review site where they may be relevent?


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    #56
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    latenia wrote: »
    I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.

    This. The biggest eyesore in Dublin, the power station at Poolbeg ruins any semblance of a view. It is even worse over at Sandymount, I can never understand people paying €2m+ for a house that looks out on two ugly chimney stacks, much better views in Killiney & Dalkey IMO.


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    #57
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    RATM wrote: »
    This. The biggest eyesore in Dublin, the power station at Poolbeg ruins any semblance of a view. It is even worse over at Sandymount, I can never understand people paying €2m+ for a house that looks out on two ugly chimney stacks, much better views in Killiney & Dalkey IMO.

    They cant afford Killiney or Dalkey.

    They're sort of pseudo snobs.


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    #58
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    I like them. Always did, iconic Dublin landmarks, great for position when out in the bay! The South wall is a fairly cool place to knock around too.

    Shelterlow.jpg


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    #59
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Degsy wrote: »
    They cant afford Killiney or Dalkey.

    They're sort of pseudo snobs.

    and the boards.ie winner for most irrelevant posts on a thread goes to....


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    #60
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    bamboozle wrote: »
    and the boards.ie winner for most irrelevant posts on a thread goes to....

    So 5000 "clontarf residents" turned out to stop the council interfering with thier Lovely Sea view.

    A proportion of them were concerned about the affect this development would have on thier house prices,yes?

    How many of these good citizens turned out to protest the previous three savage budgets the economy has been subjected to,or the handing over of our soverignty to the IMF?

    But when thier beautiful view is threatened or a few grand knocked off the value of thier houses they protest in huge numbers.

    Can you see why i'm less than sympathetic to thier plight?


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    #61
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Reminds me of the lobby group in Portmarnock, against the runway expansion of Dublin airport which never happened in the end anyway

    When asked their reasons one of them was house prices, nobody wants to live on a flight path
    It's not how you win support

    The good people of Clontarf have many reasons to object to this but if they bring up their precious house prices it'll turn people off and make others lose interest

    RMD wrote: »
    Many people will buy a house along Clontarf road because they'll have a view over the bay. Taking into account there's 300 hundred houses along the road, it adds up to a couple of million in falling prices.

    So this is irrelevant
    And you could turn it around and say it helps people who want to buy into the area and are not bothered by the wall. Helps a business get cheaper rent or cheaper to buy a premises
    High property prices are not always a good thing

    RMD wrote: »
    Not to mention as said it's a popular amenity used by cyclists, walkers, sports teams / athletic clubs etc. Stick a 9 foot mound in the middle of it and it ruins it for a lot of people.

    In the 10+ years I've been living in Clontarf I've only seen 2 bad spots of flooding both well controlled by sand bags. I've never seen flooding conditions that would require a 9 foot wall.

    That's a far better argument


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