Christians been driven out of the middle east?

Eramen · 10-10-2011 06:04PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

>>>> Anti-Theist Forum for 5 y.o.'s

How I'd like to see that :eek:

Nodin · 10-10-2011 06:06PM

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With ............. east?.

Its not an area none for its tolerance of minorities. The Copts were being treated badly before the "Arab Spring", I might add.

mcmoustache · 10-10-2011 06:06PM

A religious majority persecuting a religious minority?

I'm shocked. Seriously, here's my shocked face -> :eek:.

Some of these Arab Spring revolutions could end up creating another Iran (Students rise up, mullahs take over, hilarity ensues). It's one thing to topple a regime. It's another to stand up to the religious authorities who plan on filling the power vaccuum. It will be interesting to see what kind of people take over these countries.

Dudess · 10-10-2011 06:08PM

Johro wrote: »

I think we need to be careful here and keep things in perspective before we have another 'Islam's coming to get ya' thread.

Good luck with that! :pac:

In before "There are two mosques in the whole of Ireland, we'll all be made worship Allah soon...! :eek:"

Herb Powell · 10-10-2011 07:02PM

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

What
They were dictators

Coriolanus · 10-10-2011 07:10PM

The last round of crusades were a lark, might as well do it again. And none of this flying malarky, we'll walk to the holy land, same as last time. Should be able to find some Jews along the way too.

philologos · 10-10-2011 07:10PM

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

Coptic Christians were heavily persecuted in Egypt even under Mubarak. This is nothing new. In fact, in light of the last 2,000 years of Christianity is nothing new. The early Christian church was built during intense suffering and persecution. Jesus said that Christians should expect to be persecuted as they have on a global level since its very beginnings.

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Jordan and Israel seem to be fairly open.Would it make any difference if all Christians left the middle east?.

Jordan has similar challenges to Egypt as far as I'm aware, and Israel has challenges of its own for Jewish Christians.

You ask "Would it make a difference if all Christians left the Middle East? I think it would make a difference in that there would be nobody to live or speak for Christ in that region of the world, and there would be no witness to the Gospel in that area of the world. Thankfully in the past few years Christians have been beginning to get an entry to tell people about the Gospel in that region of the world. One can only hope it will continue.

Killer Pigeon wrote:

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

Ultimately it could be any further from happening, even in many largely secularized countries there is a strong Christian presence.

Nodin · 10-10-2011 07:13PM

Dudess wrote: »

Good luck with that! :pac:

In before "There are two mosques in the whole of Ireland, we'll all be made worship Allah soon...! :eek:"

Two?????????

Hide the feckin pork.....

Nodin · 10-10-2011 07:17PM

There's a detailed report on this at the moment on CH4. It would seem that this was - to a large extent - a state instigated attack, in that State TV urged 'ordinary Egyptians' to 'support the Army', thus ramping up the tension and violence.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:32PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I have family over there. The little that Sky News reports has nothing on what's really going on over there.

Just yesterday in a demonstration after an attack on a church, the army ran over and crushed a Christian protestor's head under a vehicle. This "revolution" business has brought about hell for minorities in the region.

Are you suggesting that the army is directly and specifically targeting Christians? How do you know it wasn't an accident?

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:38PM

johnmcdnl wrote: »

would that include you as well as I'd say there's a fair few of the posters on here who seem to love Christian's being persecuted but are baptised themselves... if your one of the lucky ones who had atheist parents well good for you but how many of your friends were baptised... would you like to see them killed simply because a piece of paper says that they were Christians remembering that you can't get yourself out of the Catholic church...

Pointless point in my opinion. Of course I can "get myself out" of the RCC. It's called not going to mass. If the RCC want to keep me on their records as a Catholic, against my wishes, then I'd take legal action against them for defamation of character.

Mike 1972 · 10-10-2011 07:38PM

Of course its not just Christians who have faced persecution in Egypt in recent times.

Now tell me again how weve nothing to fear if weve nothing to hide :rolleyes:

philologos · 10-10-2011 07:40PM

Mike 1972: Where has anyone argued that it is just Christians who have been persecuted? It doesn't detract from the fact that Christians are being persecuted occasionally in a violent manner.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:44PM

philologos wrote: »

Mike 1972: Where has anyone argued that it is just Christians who have been persecuted? It doesn't detract from the fact that Christians are being persecuted occasionally in a violent manner.

If it's not just Christians who are being persecuted, then the OP should not specifically refer to Christians. Are Christians more special then other religious denominations? It seems like they are according to the OP.

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 07:44PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the army are directly targeting Christians? How do you know it wasn't an accident?

I'm not suggesting it, i'm stating it. It's not the army as an organisation but a proportion of members of the army who are affiliated with Islamist groups. I find it extremely hard to believe that the incidents that have occurred against Christians in the past few months that had some army involvement have all been accidental.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:45PM

Eramen wrote: »

>>>> Anti-Theist Forum for 5 y.o.'s

How I'd like to see that :eek:

Don't go there.

*Snaps fingers precariously*

woodoo · 10-10-2011 07:46PM

lazygal wrote: »

Also, it's BEING not BEEN. Christians aren't exempt from grammar rules, despite what your God might say.

Sigh

philologos · 10-10-2011 07:47PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

If it's not just Christians who are being persecuted, then the OP should not specifically refer to Christians. Are Christians more special then other religious denominations? It seems like they are according to the OP.

In this case, it happened to be in respect to Christians, this is why the media have been covering it in this light.

Unless you'd like someone just to tell you outright lies to make you feel better? Here's the coverage in the Guardian. Not a paper people would say had a pro-Christian bias.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:48PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it, i'm stating it. It's not the army as an organisation but a proportion of members of the army who are affiliated with Islamist groups.

Do you know for certain that they are targeting Christians, specifically? Or is that just based on spin?

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 07:50PM

Here's a video snippet of some of the events I mentioned earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBxMG1e8oLw

I suppose those drivers must have thought they were playing GTA4 or something. We all know the Egyptian security forces would never hurt a fly.

NSFW, GRAPHIC IMAGES
A news story and about four or so images of the aftermath of yesterday's protests. Seeing photos like that and then hearing stories about the people over in the Occupy Wall St. protest complaining about "police brutality" really shows how good we have it over here in the West.

4leto · 10-10-2011 07:54PM

Why now, Islam has tolerance written into its practice. So for a 1000+ years they have lived together in relative peace and now all of a sudden they are been driven out.

So in this modern scientific age what is going on, surely there should be more tolerance not less. Unfortunately Islam seems to me these days to be more about nationalism and identity then religion.

Even in secular Turkey the Islamic parties are making ground.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 07:56PM

philologos wrote: »

In this case, it happened to be in respect to Christians, this is why the media have been covering it in this light.

Unless you'd like someone just to tell you outright lies to make you feel better? Here's the coverage in the Guardian. Not a paper people would say had a pro-Christian bias.

Let's say this week Christians are attacked. Next week it's Muslims and the week after it's Jews. The media report on each consecutive individually each week. Sure, the media aren't really biased in this scenario but the fact each of these events occurred on separate occasions would lead certain individuals to interpret the wider story as something far from what it actually is. A Christian would ignore the fact that Muslims were attacked last week and say that the army is specifically targeting Christians.

philologos · 10-10-2011 08:02PM

I've not much interest in debating the facts with you Killer Pigeon. I can't imagine Muslims being widely persecuted for their religious beliefs in an Islamic society just as I can't imagine that evangelical Christians are persecuted widely in the Bible Belt. In this case Christians have been persecuted against. Indeed, worldwide this happens on a huge scale throughout the world, and particularly in Asia.

Personally, I think it is wrong, but ultimately I don't think that it will change. Christians often stand out from others in the world, this can either make people curious about them or in some cases hostile towards them.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 08:02PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Here's a video snippet of some of the events I mentioned earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBxMG1e8oLw

I suppose those drivers must have thought they were playing GTA4 or something. We all know the Egyptian security forces would never hurt a fly.

Yes, it's heavy handed, you have to admit. But are they specifically targeting Christians? How can you be sure that the security forces aren't using such heavy handed tactics against non-Christians? Sure only a couple of months ago Mubarak's security forces were using the same (if not worse) tactics against his own people.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 08:06PM

philologos wrote: »

I've not much interest in debating the facts with you Killer Pigeon. I can't imagine Muslims being widely persecuted for their religious beliefs in an Islamic society just as I can't imagine that evangelical Christians are persecuted widely in the Bible Belt.

Then by that same logic, I could say that in Christian countries Muslims are more likely to be persecuted against than Christians. In fact, this is not the case.

So I'm afraid, philologos, discussing the facts here is quite important and brushing them aside in this argument would be quite disingenuous.

And by the way, Christians are not special.

4leto · 10-10-2011 08:08PM

philologos wrote: »

I've not much interest in debating the facts with you Killer Pigeon. I can't imagine Muslims being widely persecuted for their religious beliefs in an Islamic society just as I can't imagine that evangelical Christians are persecuted widely in the Bible Belt. In this case Christians have been persecuted against. Indeed, worldwide this happens on a huge scale throughout the world, and particularly in Asia.

Personally, I think it is wrong, but ultimately I don't think that it will change. Christians often stand out from others in the world, this can either make people curious about them or in some cases hostile towards them.

There is the Sunni, Shia and a host of other Islamic sects who have been at each other's throats for centuries.

Just like Catholics and Protestants here in Ireland and the Europe of old.

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 08:09PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Yes, it's heavy handed, you have to admit. But are they specifically targeting Christians? How can you be sure that the security forces aren't using such heavy handed tactics against non-Christians? Sure only a couple of months ago Mubarak's security forces were using the same (if not worse) tactics against his own people.

There was a much larger protest on the 7th October in Tahrir square to do with people opposing the re-enactment of Emergency law. Funnily enough, there were no deaths that I heard of. In a much smaller protest yesterday organised by Christians there were 35 killed and 300 injured (And counting).

Must be luck of the draw I guess.

philologos · 10-10-2011 08:10PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Then by that same logic, I could say that Muslims than Christians to be persecuted against in Christian countries.

If there is such a thing as a Christian country in the world, I guess so. Although, if it were truly a Christian country it wouldn't be characterised by such gross abuse.

I condemn outright mistreatment of any person irrespective of creed, race, sexual orientation and so on.

philologos · 10-10-2011 08:14PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

So I'm afraid, philologos, discussing the facts here is quite important and brushing them aside in this argument would be quite disingenuous.

And by the way, Christians are not special.

To account for your ninja edit. You're not discussing the facts at all, you're trying to explain them away.

As for Christians not being special, I wouldn't necessarily agree, but in the sense that they shouldn't be regarded as superior to other people I absolutely agree. Christianity is profound, and I think the representatives of Christian truth in the Middle East are incredible to say the least. I'm entitled to that opinion just as much as you're entitled to your opinion that it is all a fairytale.

What we can't escape from is the fact of what is happening across the world to millions of Christians.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 08:16PM

philologos wrote: »

If there is such a thing as a Christian country in the world, I guess so.

Well, there must be, if you'd like to see Egypt as an Islamic country.

philologos wrote: »

Although, if it were truly a Christian country it wouldn't be characterised by such gross abuse.

Oh really? Because I forgot to read over the past 80 years of Irish history.

Christians been driven out of the middle east?

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