Christians been driven out of the middle east?

Paddy Samurai · 10-10-2011 4:00pm #1

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

During the initial anti-President Mubarak protests in February, many of the demonstrators were young, modern, secular types who were in favour of full rights for the Christian demonstrators in their midst.
Now, however, the dominant force behind most street protests and political activity is the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist movements and the original protesters have lost control of the demonstrations.
This has gone hand in hand with an upsurge in attacks on Christians.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16086142

The Middle East is the birthplace of Christianity and home to some of the world's most ancient Christian denominations. But Christian communities across the region are declining in numbers because of a combination of low birth rates, emigration and, in some places, persecution and violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239529

Jordan and Israel seem to be fairly open.Would it make any difference if all Christians left the middle east?.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 4:01pm

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

lazygal · 10-10-2011 4:02pm

Also, it's BEING not BEEN. Christians aren't exempt from grammar rules, despite what your God might say.

old hippy · 10-10-2011 4:04pm

Whilst not being religious in the slightest, I don't agree that people should be driven out of a country because of their faith.

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2011 4:04pm

Give the OP a break. He's right to highlight this. Our media (influenced by the London press) is way to eager to applaud the so-called Arab Spring without inquiring too closely into some of its dark corners. The ongoing massacre at Sirte is one such corner - the ethnic cleansing of Coptic Christians in Egypt is another.

ejmaztec · 10-10-2011 4:06pm

lazygal wrote: »

Also, it's BEING not BEEN. Christians aren't exempt from grammar rules, despite what your God might say.

They are on this forum, as per the rules.:P

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 4:06pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

You sound like a delightful person. People being driven out of their homes and killed and you just keep pushing for your ideology.

lazygal · 10-10-2011 4:06pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

They are on this forum, as per the rules.:P

That's not how I roll!

Dudess · 10-10-2011 4:06pm

Our press and the British press are so "pro muslim" they have no problem with small girls getting their genitals carved up - fact. :cool:

Steodonn · 10-10-2011 4:06pm

I would rather the Christians leave Ireland imo

ejmaztec · 10-10-2011 4:07pm

lazygal wrote: »

That's not how I roll!

Neither do I, but we have to take the rough with the smooth.:(

old hippy · 10-10-2011 4:08pm

Dudess wrote: »

Our press and the British press are so "pro muslim" they have no problem with small girls getting their genitals carved up - fact. :cool:

Backed up with appropriate links, of course

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 4:08pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You sound like a delightful person. People being driven out of their homes and killed and you just keep pushing for your ideology.

I really doubts it's as bad as Skynews is reporting.

Dudess · 10-10-2011 4:09pm

old hippy wrote: »

Backed up with appropriate links, of course

'Twas irony - some folks around here have it in their imagination that not being anti muslim = defender of Sharia law...

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 4:09pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Jordan and Israel seem to be fairly open.Would it make any difference if all Christians left the middle east?.

Would it have made any difference if all the Irish left Ireland during the British plantations? There's nothing at all right about people being persecuted for their religious beliefs and being bullied out of their homes (And sometimes killed) by what are essentially long-standing invaders. I am of course talking about the situation in Egypt. Egypt was originally a Christian country in the years that followed Greco-Roman Egypt until it was invaded and taken over by the Arabs whose descendants now form part of the force attempting to force Christians to emigrate out of their own country.

old hippy · 10-10-2011 4:09pm

Dudess wrote: »

'Twas irony - some folks around here have it in their imagination that not being anti muslim = defender of Sharia law...

Ah, ok

ejmaztec · 10-10-2011 4:12pm

Does "driven out" mean that they give them a lift to the airport, or does it mean "kill them"?

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 4:15pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I really doubts it's as bad as Skynews is reporting.

I have family over there. The little that Sky News reports has nothing on what's really going on over there.

Just yesterday in a demonstration after an attack on a church, the army ran over and crushed a Christian protestor's head under a vehicle. This "revolution" business has brought about hell for minorities in the region.

seamus · 10-10-2011 4:15pm

It's not really surprising. Radical groups of any kind are typically the most organised and by definition the most militant, so are the ones most likely to fill a power void when one appears.

Protests which start out very liberal and leaderless will either break down and dissipate because they lack direction, or will be hijacked by such radical groups who already have the organisation and leadership required to keep the protest going.

What's ironic is that this could lead to UN intervention against the protestors and an attempt to reinstall someone linked to Mubarak, at least in the short-term.

Chuck Stone · 10-10-2011 4:16pm

This stinks.

Suryavarman · 10-10-2011 4:18pm

I had a feeling that something bad was going to "spring" out of these revolutions.

Johro · 10-10-2011 4:19pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

I think we need to be careful here and keep things in perspective before we have another 'Islam's coming to get ya' thread. From what I've seen so far, a rise of militant Islam is the opposite of what the majority of people involved in the 'Arab Spring' want.
Militant Islam is just as limiting to their freedom as dictators are.

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2011 4:23pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Egypt was originally a Christian country in the years that followed Greco-Roman Egypt until it was invaded and taken over by the Arabs whose descendants now form part of the force attempting to force Christians to emigrate out of their own country.

Ah, now Ted! Egypt originally a Christian country?

What's this about then?

Or this?

Or this?

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 4:25pm

You could have actually read my post... it tends to help avoid embarrassing situations like these.

Egypt was originally a Christian country in the years that followed Greco-Roman Egypt until it was invaded and taken over by the Arabs
That part in bold is a time period...

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2011 4:28pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You could have actually read my post... it tends to help avoid embarrassing situations like these.

Egypt was originally a Christian country in the years that followed Greco-Roman Egypt until it was invaded and taken over by the Arabs
That part in bold is a time period...

I read your post. You don't really comprehend the meaning of the word 'originally'. (Clue - it means at the point of origin, not a brief period in the middle.) Your logic is Egypt was a Christian country for a brief period of time some more than 1400 years ago. That doesn't make it a Christian country in any meaningful sense. It was nominally Christian between a lengthy period of worshipping their own ancient deities and then a further lengthy period of being predominantly Muslim.
DNA testing on modern Egyptians shows that they are related to their Osiris-worshipping forefathers, and hence were NOT displaced by invading Arabs as you suggest.

Chuck Stone · 10-10-2011 4:29pm

Johro wrote: »

I think we need to be careful here and keep things in perspective before we have another 'Islam's coming to get ya' thread. From what I've seen so far, a rise of militant Islam is the opposite of what the majority of people involved in the 'Arab Spring' want.
Militant Islam is just as limiting to their freedom as dictators are.

That's why it stinks.

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was deliberate agitation fomented by those who would not like to see a democratic Egypt.

Johro · 10-10-2011 4:30pm

I don't think it matters whether Egypt was Christian or Muslim. Go back far enough and they worshipped different gods altogether. Past or present religions shouldn't define who have a right to live on its soil.

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 4:40pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I read your post. You don't really comprehend the meaning of the word 'originally'. (Clue - it means at the point of origin, not a brief period in the middle.) Your logic is Egypt was a Christian country for a brief period of time some more than 1400 years ago.

No. My logic is that Christianity has been alive in Egypt long before Islam came on to the scene. Hence the injustice of modern day Islamists trying to force Christians out of Egypt.

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2011 4:46pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

No. My logic is that Christianity has been alive in Egypt long before Islam came on to the scene. Hence the injustice of modern day Islamists trying to force Christians out of Egypt.

Christianity predates Islam shock!
I thought that might be your point which is why I introduced you to the concept of the Egyptian pantheon that - shock again! - was in Egypt for thousands of years before Christianity came onto the scene.
Egypt is a predominantly Muslim country with a Christian minority and has been for centuries.
The reason why it is unjust to ethnically cleanse the Coptic Christians is because ethnic cleansing is itself morally f ucking evil. It doesn't really matter what flavour of godbothering happens to be responsible.

Johro · 10-10-2011 4:47pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

No. My logic is that Christianity has been alive in Egypt long before Islam came on to the scene. Hence the injustice of modern day Islamists trying to force Christians out of Egypt.

I don't think anyone denies there's an injustice here, but it would still be an injustice if those Christians had set up shop, so to speak, yesterday.

johnmcdnl · 10-10-2011 4:53pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

Steodonn wrote: »

I would rather the Christians leave Ireland imo

would that include you as well as I'd say there's a fair few of the posters on here who seem to love Christian's being persecuted but are baptised themselves... if your one of the lucky ones who had atheist parents well good for you but how many of your friends were baptised... would you like to see them killed simply because a piece of paper says that they were Christians remembering that you can't get yourself out of the Catholic church...

if this happened in Ireland and all the Protestants and Muslims and Jews were killed and driven out would you support it??? just to get rid of religion...

if I remember correctly most people on here seemed to be in support of the rebels when they were getting rid of Ghadaffi and Mubarack and all which is fair enough - but do you honestly think that this is acceptable... trying to kill innocent people simply because they believe in a different god to them...

this is what I think most people were afraid of happening when these uprisings happened - that one dictator would be replaced with something worse...

Eramen · 10-10-2011 5:04pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

>>>> Anti-Theist Forum for 5 y.o.'s

How I'd like to see that :eek:

Nodin · 10-10-2011 5:06pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With ............. east?.

Its not an area none for its tolerance of minorities. The Copts were being treated badly before the "Arab Spring", I might add.

mcmoustache · 10-10-2011 5:06pm

A religious majority persecuting a religious minority?

I'm shocked. Seriously, here's my shocked face -> :eek:.

Some of these Arab Spring revolutions could end up creating another Iran (Students rise up, mullahs take over, hilarity ensues). It's one thing to topple a regime. It's another to stand up to the religious authorities who plan on filling the power vaccuum. It will be interesting to see what kind of people take over these countries.

Dudess · 10-10-2011 5:08pm

Johro wrote: »

I think we need to be careful here and keep things in perspective before we have another 'Islam's coming to get ya' thread.

Good luck with that! :pac:

In before "There are two mosques in the whole of Ireland, we'll all be made worship Allah soon...! :eek:"

Herb Powell · 10-10-2011 6:02pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

What
They were dictators

Coriolanus · 10-10-2011 6:10pm

The last round of crusades were a lark, might as well do it again. And none of this flying malarky, we'll walk to the holy land, same as last time. Should be able to find some Jews along the way too.

philologos · 10-10-2011 6:10pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

With the rise of militant Islam in countries involved in the arab spring,it looks like in some countries that Christians are been increasingly targeted .
Its looks like they were safer under the so called dictators.

Coptic Christians were heavily persecuted in Egypt even under Mubarak. This is nothing new. In fact, in light of the last 2,000 years of Christianity is nothing new. The early Christian church was built during intense suffering and persecution. Jesus said that Christians should expect to be persecuted as they have on a global level since its very beginnings.

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Jordan and Israel seem to be fairly open.Would it make any difference if all Christians left the middle east?.

Jordan has similar challenges to Egypt as far as I'm aware, and Israel has challenges of its own for Jewish Christians.

You ask "Would it make a difference if all Christians left the Middle East? I think it would make a difference in that there would be nobody to live or speak for Christ in that region of the world, and there would be no witness to the Gospel in that area of the world. Thankfully in the past few years Christians have been beginning to get an entry to tell people about the Gospel in that region of the world. One can only hope it will continue.

Killer Pigeon wrote:

>>>> Christianity Forum

As long as it eventually leads to the total annihilation of all religions, I couldn't give a damn.

Ultimately it could be any further from happening, even in many largely secularized countries there is a strong Christian presence.

Nodin · 10-10-2011 6:13pm

Dudess wrote: »

Good luck with that! :pac:

In before "There are two mosques in the whole of Ireland, we'll all be made worship Allah soon...! :eek:"

Two?????????

Hide the feckin pork.....

Nodin · 10-10-2011 6:17pm

There's a detailed report on this at the moment on CH4. It would seem that this was - to a large extent - a state instigated attack, in that State TV urged 'ordinary Egyptians' to 'support the Army', thus ramping up the tension and violence.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 6:32pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I have family over there. The little that Sky News reports has nothing on what's really going on over there.

Just yesterday in a demonstration after an attack on a church, the army ran over and crushed a Christian protestor's head under a vehicle. This "revolution" business has brought about hell for minorities in the region.

Are you suggesting that the army is directly and specifically targeting Christians? How do you know it wasn't an accident?

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 6:38pm

johnmcdnl wrote: »

would that include you as well as I'd say there's a fair few of the posters on here who seem to love Christian's being persecuted but are baptised themselves... if your one of the lucky ones who had atheist parents well good for you but how many of your friends were baptised... would you like to see them killed simply because a piece of paper says that they were Christians remembering that you can't get yourself out of the Catholic church...

Pointless point in my opinion. Of course I can "get myself out" of the RCC. It's called not going to mass. If the RCC want to keep me on their records as a Catholic, against my wishes, then I'd take legal action against them for defamation of character.

Mike 1972 · 10-10-2011 6:38pm

Of course its not just Christians who have faced persecution in Egypt in recent times.

Now tell me again how weve nothing to fear if weve nothing to hide :rolleyes:

philologos · 10-10-2011 6:40pm

Mike 1972: Where has anyone argued that it is just Christians who have been persecuted? It doesn't detract from the fact that Christians are being persecuted occasionally in a violent manner.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 6:44pm

philologos wrote: »

Mike 1972: Where has anyone argued that it is just Christians who have been persecuted? It doesn't detract from the fact that Christians are being persecuted occasionally in a violent manner.

If it's not just Christians who are being persecuted, then the OP should not specifically refer to Christians. Are Christians more special then other religious denominations? It seems like they are according to the OP.

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 6:44pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the army are directly targeting Christians? How do you know it wasn't an accident?

I'm not suggesting it, i'm stating it. It's not the army as an organisation but a proportion of members of the army who are affiliated with Islamist groups. I find it extremely hard to believe that the incidents that have occurred against Christians in the past few months that had some army involvement have all been accidental.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 6:45pm

Eramen wrote: »

>>>> Anti-Theist Forum for 5 y.o.'s

How I'd like to see that :eek:

Don't go there.

*Snaps fingers precariously*

woodoo · 10-10-2011 6:46pm

lazygal wrote: »

Also, it's BEING not BEEN. Christians aren't exempt from grammar rules, despite what your God might say.

Sigh

philologos · 10-10-2011 6:47pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

If it's not just Christians who are being persecuted, then the OP should not specifically refer to Christians. Are Christians more special then other religious denominations? It seems like they are according to the OP.

In this case, it happened to be in respect to Christians, this is why the media have been covering it in this light.

Unless you'd like someone just to tell you outright lies to make you feel better? Here's the coverage in the Guardian. Not a paper people would say had a pro-Christian bias.

Killer Pigeon · 10-10-2011 6:48pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it, i'm stating it. It's not the army as an organisation but a proportion of members of the army who are affiliated with Islamist groups.

Do you know for certain that they are targeting Christians, specifically? Or is that just based on spin?

partyatmygaff · 10-10-2011 6:50pm

Here's a video snippet of some of the events I mentioned earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBxMG1e8oLw

I suppose those drivers must have thought they were playing GTA4 or something. We all know the Egyptian security forces would never hurt a fly.

NSFW, GRAPHIC IMAGES
A news story and about four or so images of the aftermath of yesterday's protests. Seeing photos like that and then hearing stories about the people over in the Occupy Wall St. protest complaining about "police brutality" really shows how good we have it over here in the West.

Christians been driven out of the middle east?

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