Should you be allowed drive after failing a driving test?

vibe666 · 05-09-2011 01:54PM

AdamD wrote: »

Do people in this thread actually think that learner drivers are the dangerous ones? :rolleyes:

i imagine that most people on this thread consider that inexperienced drivers are more likely to be the dangerous ones, which by default includes learner drivers due to their lack of experience.

it takes years of regular driving to get enough experience to learn to drive properly and safely and be able to anticipate almost every eventuality on the roads and react accordingly without having to think about it and its something that a lot of drivers never master.

that's not to say that every accident is caused by inexperience, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that with all other things being equal, someone with very little experience on the roads in charge of a 100mph killing machine is more likely to have an accident due to their inexperience than someone with a few years driving under their belt.

inforfun · 05-09-2011 02:04PM

AdamD wrote: »

Do people in this thread actually think that learner drivers are the dangerous ones? :rolleyes:

Rolleye as much as you want but i do think they are.

Coming from a country that doesnt do that whole learner driving thing i have never seen such idiotic behavior there as what i have experienced here.
Let me put it this way, stupid move on the road and i am surprised if there isnt a "L" on the car.

But i ll give you this, stupidity in traffic is certainly not limited to L drivers only.

-Chris- · 05-09-2011 02:12PM

AdamD wrote: »

Do people in this thread actually think that learner drivers are the dangerous ones? :rolleyes:

There are good drivers and bad drivers, mostly through observation, anticipation & common sense.

Of those good and bad drivers, there are some who have sat a test and proven that they comply with the minimum standard, and there are those that haven't.

So I'd say there are (in order of "quantifiable dangerousness"):

Good drivers
Bad drivers who passed the test, but are obviously above a certain minimum level of competence
Drivers who have not sat the test and are therefore an "unknown quantity"
Drivers who have sat the test and have been unable to demonstrate the minimum level of competence

You can then colour it a little by taking distraction, tiredness, intoxication, or any other factor that turns a normally good driver into a bad (i.e. dangerous) one, but it's harder to work it the other way around and say "you've failed to demonstrate the minimum level of competence, but you're actually a good driver".
There is then a certain amount of practice and further learning that's required to take someone from passing the test (demonstrating the minimum level of competence) to being an actual "good" driver.
We shouldn't be afraid to put restrictions on learner drivers and freshly-minted fully licensed drivers, because it's patently obvious to everyone that you're not instantly a good driver the moment you receive your pink license.

donalg1 · 05-09-2011 02:14PM

newbie2 wrote: »

I lol'd

I imagine you are the best driver in the world and never make mistakes on the road?

The full licence thing is so a deriver can take control of the car in circumstances where the lerner does not feel capable or is not capable of proceding. (they obv. get out of the car and swap seats :rolleyes:)

Satnd alone lerner schools would be too expensive. IMO it should be taught in secondary schools.

Dictionary?!!!

-Chris- · 05-09-2011 02:17PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Dictionary?!!!

We don't do the "pedantic grammar Nazi" thing around here, thanks.

05-09-2011 04:40PM

Not to be cocky, but I passed my test in March and am pretty sure that both before and after I recieved my license I was a more able driver than 30/40% of road users. The 'experienced' ones seemingly do not know how roundabouts or indeed indicators work.

Wolverine_1999 · 05-09-2011 04:50PM

AdamD wrote: »

The 'experienced' ones seemingly do not know how roundabouts or indeed indicators work.

Sure using them things involves lifting your arms which could count as exercise.

The driving test in Ireland is a joke in any case so failing it in my view means you weren't laughing at the stupidity of it in the first place.

Let them drive! Sure wouldn't our insurance companies not be so rich because of all the bad drivers on the road otherwise!

shamtastic · 05-09-2011 04:52PM

Many learners are at a safer level than OAP's and the people who speed the whole time and tail gait it's nonsense to suggest they are all lethal. Yes we need laws to stop a load of 17 year old's driving on the roads all night but the whole system needs a revamp.

keeley 4 · 05-09-2011 04:58PM

its easy to say the driving test was so easy but i know if my parents or many MANY older people who have full licenses had to re sit their tests now they wouldn't pass....

even though I am a learner I have to say more often than not its older people who drive worse than young people there should definatly be a law where people have to do a driving test when they get to the age of 70 but i do agree some young people are dangerous drivers but the driving test is a joke no one actually drives like that after they pass it anyway....

Cool Mo D · 05-09-2011 05:06PM

I would say that if you placed a hidden camera in every car in the nation tomorrow, and recorded 40 minutes of driving, a good 90%+ of drivers would have broken enough rules of the road to fail a driving test.

-Chris- · 05-09-2011 05:13PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I would say that if you placed a hidden camera in every car in the nation tomorrow, and recorded 40 minutes of driving, a good 90%+ of drivers would have broken enough rules of the road to fail a driving test.

And that opens another can of worms.

Someone who's passed their test, demonstrating the minimum level of competence, who habitually speeds and talks on the phone, has the ability to drive within the law and with (relatively) complete control for those 40 mins.

Someone who's failed their test and therefore isn't capable of demonstrating the minimum level of competence, will be equally incompetent during the 40 minute recorded drive.

I'm not sure who's worse, someone who chooses to drive unsafely, or someone who's an unsafe driver and refuses to accept it...

166man · 05-09-2011 06:29PM

AdamD wrote: »

Driving in a driving school is vastly different from driving on proper roads, if they could only do that then by your logic they would have full licenses having on driven on proper roads with traffic for 20 minutes, ridiculous.

That is such a silly idea. You passed the same test as everyone else from the last 20 years, but wait, they're allowed drive and you're not. The test is so called as it tests whether you should be allowed to drive or not, if you pass you are obviously good enough and safe enough to drive. Of course your driving isnt going to magically change just because you passed, but your driving 1 week before the test was obviously of a good standard hence why you passed, what else do you expect? I really don't understand where you are going with that statement.

Do people in this thread actually think that learner drivers are the dangerous ones? :rolleyes:

It really isn't a silly idea to be honest, this attitude in Ireland that once you have that pink slip of paper you are automatically a good driver is a load of nonsense, if anything in a way some learners are better than fully-licensed drivers as many of them do not speed, obey the rules of the road and do not talk on the phone while driving. Just because somebody can drive around on a route for 35 minutes that they will have practised many times before does not mean that they will be able to handle crosswinds on a motorway doing over 100km/h... in the rain.

The driving test is just so outdated I really do not understand it, I mean in the test it is a requirement that you are able to reverse around a corner(?!!!). In all fairness if you did that on the open road the Guards would probably pull you over...

05-09-2011 06:33PM

166man wrote: »

It really isn't a silly idea to be honest, this attitude in Ireland that once you have that pink slip of paper you are automatically a good driver is a load of nonsense, if anything in a way some learners are better than fully-licensed drivers as many of them do not speed, obey the rules of the road and do not talk on the phone while driving. Just because somebody can drive around on a route for 35 minutes that they will have practised many times before does not mean that they will be able to handle crosswinds on a motorway doing over 100km/h... in the rain.

The driving test is just so outdated I really do not understand it, I mean in the test it is a requirement that you are able to reverse around a corner(?!!!). In all fairness if you did that on the open road the Guards would probably pull you over...

Having to be accompanied for another 6 months would if anything hinder their driving. The big issue being raised is experience, when you pass your test you can drive on your own, giving you way more chance of gaining experience. If you had to be accompanied you wouldn't improve your driving all that much.

Laisurg · 05-09-2011 06:38PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

No, just not allowed drive on the roads, why should my life be put in danger by somebody who was testes and deemed un safe to drive?

@ comminted - Also that full licence driving thing is a load of non-sense. A full driver cant control the car thus allowing the learner driver full control which is the problem in the first place.

erhaps schools should be set up to teach learner drivers cause I cenrtainly dont like helping them knowing my life is in danger.

Just because they failed the test once doesn't mean they're ignorant, I've been in cars with people who passed on their first try and are some of the worst drivers I've ever seen.

166man · 05-09-2011 06:49PM

AdamD wrote: »

Having to be accompanied for another 6 months would if anything hinder their driving. The big issue being raised is experience, when you pass your test you can drive on your own, giving you way more chance of gaining experience. If you had to be accompanied you wouldn't improve your driving all that much.

What I'm trying to say here is that the only difference between someone driving two weeks before their test and two weeks after is that they have driven for 30 odd minutes properly yet they are now allowed to drive alone and have vastly reduced insurance...

sean1141 · 05-09-2011 06:50PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

what is my problem is that learner drivers are putting life at risk everyday

so are a lot of full licenced drivers so what is your plans for them?

the first time i sat my driving test i failed on slow progress. dont think i was a real danger to other road users..

sure a full licenced driver can drive on the wrong side of the motorway and its only 2 points and an 80 quid fine:eek:

CiniO · 05-09-2011 06:56PM

commited wrote: »

Well assuming that you are acknowledging that it's illegal to drive unaccompanied without having passed a driving test, how do you expect people to learn how to drive?

The same as they do it in almost every other country...
Learn with driving instructor in double control car.
And be allowed on the road without instructor, only after passing driving test.

If you were talking about driving without a fully licensed driver, well of course that shouldn't be allowed!

What help a fully licensed driver is.
Vast majority of licences drivers has very bad habbits, don't know how to drive correctly, and has no clue how to teach to drive.

I'm sure most adult people went through physics in high school. Would you think all those people would be able to prepare their children for leaving cert in physics?

The fact that someone has a full licence, and maybe passed a test some years ago, doesn't mean that such person is good person to be teaching someone to drive.

BenEadir · 05-09-2011 07:05PM

I was debating the issue of how learner drivers are basically allowed to drive unaccompanied down the country and got hammered by my wife's family down the country for insisting that unaccompanied learner drivers should be prosecuted but I got the same old arguments i.e. "it's not practical when we live X miles from anywhere" or "sure I'm only doing the school run" and similar.

Unfortunately I hadn't boned up on what the punishments are if on the rare occasion a learner is stopped/prosecuted. Can someone here with actual knowledge of the relevant law (maybe a Garda, driving instructor or solicitor) spell out the potential punishments if a learner driver is caught driving unaccompanied?

Also, what's the story with their insurance? Assuming they have standard 3rd party or are driving "Mammy's car" as a named driver is their insurance completely invalid? What happens if an unaccompanied learner has an accident. Is the damage to the other persons car not covered by the learner drivers insurance? What if there is a juvenile passenger in the learner drivers car (say a 12 year old brother/sister) and they are injured, would their injuries not by covered by the learner drivers insurance because there wasn't a licensed driver in the car accompanying the learner driver?

I'm heading back down to see the out/inlaws at the weekend and want to be fully prepared this time so please please please enlighten me on the subject

Ben

guyfo · 05-09-2011 07:23PM

I failed my test 3 times but that by no means makes me a bad driver nor was I immediately after the test. I failed for going when a lolypop man on roadworks turned the sign to go and I went straight into the line of an oncoming traffic. I failed the second time for having to pull forward to see round an illegally parked car in the middle of a town to see if there was anything coming and got slightly in the way of an oncoming car which had to drive around me. The third time I failed for gears. Total bull**** because he gave me 3 marks for one manuver when I stopped to do the reverse around a corner I went to select reverse it just wouldn't go in. It was a hire micra with serious milage on it and a worn box. I tried reverse it wudn go in, I tried again, wudn go in, double cluched and then with a slight grind it went in. And I failed my test for that. The joys of being 18 when doing your test, some lads will blatantly try to fail you for anything. I switched centre and did the test again. I had an off day and drove worse than on my previous 3 attempts yet still passed because I had a bit of luck and a fair tester. Just because everything went ok on your first time doesn't mean you are superior to everyone else on the road who failed they're test before. Before you start on me I did my test first when I was 18. I have been driving since I was 12 on private farm land and have been driving on the road since I was 16 on tractors. When I was 17 I got a race car and I compete in a sport called autotesting which is a test of driving talent and precision. I drive fairly safely on the roads and I know I'm not the best driver in the world but I know I can control a car better than the average person despite failing my test.

05-09-2011 07:35PM

Passed my test 4 months before I was 18.

You jell?

<snip pic>

vibe666 · 06-09-2011 08:19AM

AdamD wrote: »

Passed my test 4 months before I was 18.

You jell?

<snip pic>

i passed my test 3 months after i was 17, what difference does it make?

166man · 06-09-2011 05:42PM

vibe666 wrote: »

i passed my test 3 months after i was 17, what difference does it make?

I thought you couldn't get the learner permit until 17 and then had to wait 6 months to do the test?

GoGoGadget · 06-09-2011 06:04PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

Lets behonost, the driving test isnt hard

Just on that I believe the fail rate is very roughly 50% so it is a tough test if you go on the figures. It depends really on the person, some people have more of an aptitude for driving than others, and those that don't may have an aptitude for something else.

Back on the point, yeah it sounds like a bizarre situation when you read about it but if they're accompanied then nothing wrong with it legally. And it's still ok to drive by yourself on your second provisional as far as I know.

Although I can't find much wrong with driving on a provisional without a fully licensed driver, it would be different if it was an instructor with dual controls beside you but realistically your buddy/family member beside you probably has worse habits than the provisional driver and can't help you in any split second decisions.

Personally I found that only by driving by myself did I really start to get confidence on the road.

R.O.R · 06-09-2011 07:06PM

vibe666 wrote: »

i passed my test 3 months after i was 17, what difference does it make?

36 days - you jelly?

166man wrote: »

I thought you couldn't get the learner permit until 17 and then had to wait 6 months to do the test?

That ruling only came in a couple of years ago, in Ireland. Not everyone who posts here would have done the test in Ireland, and even older people use t'internet nowadays.

tu2j2 · 06-09-2011 07:28PM

Of course learners/people who have failed a test should be allowed to drive on the road, how the hell else are they going to learn to drive?

I also don't buy the argument that you need to be in dual controlled car to learn too, once you've mastered basic control then the instructor is really only needed for advice and guidance, if you can't manage a clutch your ****ed anyway.

I think the car test should be more like the revised bike test, a couple of hours theory and basic manovuring skills in a controlled environment. Then allowed on the road supervised by a qualified instructor. I'd like to see a two part test really, one after your basic instruction and then something like the R plates in the uk with a more advanced test after 6 months or so including motorways/night driving etc but allowing people to practice on their own in the mean time. But then thats never gona happen anyway.

I'd also like to see more emphasis on advanced driving after the test has been passed, people who learn through experience are usually not great drivers, they've just got by for so long with constant near misses. Experience isn't remotely as much use as proper instruction.

This thing of picking a certain demographic to start a thread about how they're crap annoys me a bit, learners are dangerous this week, young men next week, old woman the week after and sure BMW drivers after that, I find that the people that complain the most about others are usually the ones who need to take a close look at their own road manners

vibe666 · 06-09-2011 11:07PM

166man wrote: »

I thought you couldn't get the learner permit until 17 and then had to wait 6 months to do the test?

I didn't take my test in Ireland, i took it in the UK 17 years ago.

i lived in the country down a farm track and i got my first car when i was 13, so i was well used to driving by the time i came to actually learn to drive officially.

i still had a month of lessons from a qualified instructor to make sure i hadn't gotten into any bad habits and he decided i was ready for the test after a month, but i actually failed the first two tests due to having the same b@stard of a tester both times. the 3rd time i took the test, at the end the tester asked me why i'd failed 2 tests. i told him the name of the guy who had failed me twice and he just gave me a knowing nod and said "oh right. well okay, congratulations, you've passed" and that was it.

R.O.R wrote: »

36 days - you jelly?

yes always, but not of that.

a lad i went to school with was just on the verge of passing his test, sitting at a set of lights with the tester when a lotus esprit rear ended him and the instructor told him that he had to fail him, even though they were almost finished and he would have passed if he'd made it back to the test centre.

shelly818 · 06-10-2011 12:44PM

@orange 2 I am a learner driver and I am out with a full license holder quite often and i would just like to point out that I've never seen a learner driver/any one with L plates do something wrong its nearly always been someone with out L plates who I'm going to presume is a full license holder. I'd like to see a full license holder re take the test as I've heard a lot of people with a full license would actually FAIL because they've fallen into bad habits!

Just because a person has a full license doesn't mean they drive safely!!:mad:

JerCotter7 · 06-10-2011 01:17PM

I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed drive after failing. I found the driving test to be useless really. It didn't check anything important outside a town. Never even got to drive above 50km/h. Also got a green tick because I pulled up the handbrake without pressing the button on it....

R.O.R · 06-10-2011 01:20PM

shelly818 wrote: »

@orange 2 I am a learner driver and I am out with a full license holder quite often and i would just like to point out that I've never seen a learner driver/any one with L plates do something wrong its nearly always been someone with out L plates who I'm going to presume is a full license holder. I'd like to see a full license holder re take the test as I've heard a lot of people with a full license would actually FAIL because they've fallen into bad habits!

Just because a person has a full license doesn't mean they drive safely!!:mad:

However, holding a full licence does mean that somebody has assessed your driving to be of a suitable quality at some point in time.

Jaysoose · 06-10-2011 01:26PM

Some truly frightening posts..

Having passed my test in the north its frightens me that people in the republic can Fail a test of their basic driving ability then be allowed to drive home.

Does nobody see the irony of being deemed not fit for a full license then be allowed drive away as if the preceeding 40 minute test didnt happen. Also somebody mentioned the high failure rates does nobody think this is because people are driving on l plates without sufficient instruction and developing a multitude of bad habits before they even start looking for the test.

But its Ireland and the "Its grand" rules apply.

Should you be allowed drive after failing a driving test?

Comments