Do multicultural societies work?

woodoo · 28-09-2011 12:18AM

Our own bicultural society hasn't worked all that great over the last 800 years.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 12:20AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Well the USA has 'worked', whatever that means, for quite a long time and that's pretty much the definition of a multi-cultural society.
So, in-so-far as a nebulous question like this can actually be definitively answered, i'd go for yes.
And, before anyone mentions it, the citizenship test, does not counter the various ways in which the US is clearly a multicultural country.

The USA is one of the most racist countries in the world, black people are given jobs ahead of whites for the simple fact they are black and they need to fill a quota,they treat people differently based on their race yet they want to achieve equality... its the same with colleges, different race different opportunities.

Fight_Night · 28-09-2011 12:22AM

jugger0 wrote: »

The USA is one of the most racist countries in the world

No it is not.

pragmatic1 · 28-09-2011 12:58AM

Dionysus wrote: »

Multiethnic societies can work, multicultural societies are an entirely different matter.

Spot on sir.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 01:01AM

Fight_Night wrote: »

No it is not.

Great argument, really thought provoking and intriguing, i liked the way you challenged my opinion with your stellar answer, 5 stars, will read this post everyday for the rest of my life and marvel at its excellency.

I disagree tho, America is the most race obsessed and racist country in the world.

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 01:01AM

jugger0 wrote: »

The USA is one of the most racist countries in the world, black people are given jobs ahead of whites for the simple fact they are black and they need to fill a quota,they treat people differently based on their race yet they want to achieve equality... its the same with colleges, different race different opportunities.

Really? F*cking really?
The real problem in the USA, the reason you describe it as 'one of the most racist countries in the world' is the statistically, and generally, inconsequential, government intervention known as 'affirmative action'?
That really overrides the whole slavery, the law that used to give carte-blanche to people who wished to hang black people by their necks until they were dead off tree branches, black people not being allowed to vote or access education, the Jim Crowe laws that were in effect in the south less than a generation ago..etc..
The real 'racism' and problem in the USA is the damn blacks and how they're coining it off this whole affirmative action deal?
Yeah, they rule the roost over there, just check out how rich your average black person is in America and how the law seems to be hugely weighted in their favour..; the poor white-man can't catch a break in America, as usual...
Jesus...

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 01:19AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Really? F*cking really?
The real problem in the USA, the reason you describe it as 'one of the most racist countries in the world' is the statistically, and generally, inconsequential, government intervention known as 'affirmative action'?
That really overrides the whole slavery, the law that used to give carte-blanche to people who wished to hang black people by their necks until they were dead off tree branches, black people not being allowed to vote or access education, the Jim Crowe laws that were in effect in the south less than a generation ago..etc..
The real 'racism' and problem in the USA is the damn blacks and how they're coining it off this whole affirmative action deal?
Yeah, they rule the roost over there, just check out how rich your average black person is in America and how the law seems to be hugely weighted in their favour..; the poor white-man can't catch a break in America, as usual...
Jesus...

Not the slavery excuse.. honestly i dont see how something that happened 200 or so years ago is still affecting black people today, seems like a ****ty excuse.

I wasnt saying that black people are behind the race problems in America,just that black people while in the minority, are the poorest,most uneducated,most likely to be in jail, most unemployable etc... surely they're is something wrong there? Obviously America has a massive problem with the differences between white and blacks standards of life.

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 02:08AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Not the slavery excuse.. honestly i dont see how something that happened 200 or so years ago is still affecting black people today, seems like a ****ty excuse.

I wasnt saying that black people are behind the race problems in America,just that black people while in the minority, are the poorest,most uneducated,most likely to be in jail, most unemployable etc... surely they're is something wrong there? Obviously America has a massive problem with the differences between white and blacks standards of life.

Didn't refer to slavery or anything else as an 'excuse'; excuse for what, exactly, anyway?..
Simply gave an extremely abbreviated example of the real history of racism in America in reply to your previous post, which seemed to suggest that America's current problems stem from an onslaught of policies designed to favour 'blacks' above everything/everyone else.
Was just pointing out that that was beyond preposterous and beyond laughable.

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 02:16AM

jugger0 wrote: »

The USA is one of the most racist countries in the world, black people are given jobs ahead of whites for the simple fact they are black and they need to fill a quota,they treat people differently based on their race yet they want to achieve equality... its the same with colleges, different race different opportunities.

This is a highly misinformed post. You are referring to "Affirmative Action" and the primary group of individuals that have benefited from this program are White women. Not to mention, that statistics do not accurately record the "legacy" hiring and admissions.

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 02:18AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Not the slavery excuse.. honestly i dont see how something that happened 200 or so years ago is still affecting black people today, seems like a ****ty excuse.

I wasnt saying that black people are behind the race problems in America,just that black people while in the minority, are the poorest,most uneducated,most likely to be in jail, most unemployable etc... surely they're is something wrong there? Obviously America has a massive problem with the differences between white and blacks standards of life.

Slavery may have happened 150 years ago (ended in mid 1800s) but legal segregation only ended 45 years ago. Considering that both of my parents are in their late 50s/early 60s, they were alive during this period of time. My grandfather fought in a segregated military. My father attended segregated schools. My mother drank from the "Colored Only" water fountains. Why do people like to throw up how long ago slavery ended but completely ignore Jim Crow and it's relatively recent ending?

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 02:26AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Didn't refer to slavery or anything else as an 'excuse'; excuse for what, exactly, anyway?..

Excuse for the poor situation most black people are in.

ascanbe wrote: »

Simply gave an extremely abbreviated example of the real history of racism in America in reply to your previous post, which seemed to suggest that America's current problems stem from an onslaught of policies designed to favour 'blacks' above everything/everyone else.
Was just pointing out that that was beyond preposterous and beyond laughable.

Black people get more help now then ever, yet seem to be worse off then ever... what the hell is going on? obviously all these policy's are complete bull****, help make everyone equal by treating one group better then the others...

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 02:31AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

This is a highly misinformed post. You are referring to "Affirmative Action" and the primary group of individuals that have benefited from this program are White women. Not to mention, that statistics do not accurately record the "legacy" hiring and admissions.

"In 2009, Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade and researcher Alexandria Walton Radford, in their book 'No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal', examined data on students applying to college in 1997 and calculated that Asian-Americans needed nearly perfect SAT scores of 1550 to have the same chance of being accepted at a top private university as whites who scored 1410 and African-Americans who got 1100. Whites were three times, Hispanics six times, and blacks more than 15 times as likely to be accepted at a US university as Asian-Americans. These results were after controlling for grades, scores, family background (legacy status) and athletic status (whether or not the student was a recruited athlete)."

How the hell is that fair?

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 02:40AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Excuse for the poor situation most black people are in.

Black people get more help now then ever, yet seem to be worse off then ever... what the hell is going on? obviously all these policy's are complete bull****, help make everyone equal by treating one group better then the others...

'Get more help..'. How quaint..whatever you think.
'Yet seem to be worse off than ever'; look around you; in the USA and all around the world, pretty much everyone is 'worse off than ever', in the context of about the last half-century.
And it's only going to get worse.
I don't really care about your opinion regarding 'multiculturalism' in America, really; if what you believe happens to keep you warm at night, then good luck to you.'
Edit: and, by the way, if your beliefs stretch to the point where the 'blacks' in America 'aren't really Americans and are part of the problem of 'multiculturalism', you should probably take into account that most 'blacks' in America today, have ancestors that were slaves brought from Africa and that their ancestors were actually in America before the descendents of the Irish/Polish/Italian etc immigrants, that make up much of the current US population, many of whom currently consider themselves 'true' Americans, were ever there.

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 02:48AM

jugger0 wrote: »

"In 2009, Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade and researcher Alexandria Walton Radford, in their book 'No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal', examined data on students applying to college in 1997 and calculated that Asian-Americans needed nearly perfect SAT scores of 1550 to have the same chance of being accepted at a top private university as whites who scored 1410 and African-Americans who got 1100. Whites were three times, Hispanics six times, and blacks more than 15 times as likely to be accepted at a US university as Asian-Americans. These results were after controlling for grades, scores, family background (legacy status) and athletic status (whether or not the student was a recruited athlete)."

Yes, yes. That's nice but your statistics are reporting on the problems faced by Asian Americans; it really doesn't serve as evidence of preferential treatment of Blacks over Whites.

But to clarify your statistics, this is why Asian Americans are facing those problems:

http://www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml

When affirmative action was first implemented in the early 1970s, Asian Americans benefited from it in large numbers, as did Blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, American Indians and the group that has benefited the most, White women. Since that time, Asian Americans have achieved notable successes in educational attainment, employment, and income -- so much so that Asians are frequently called the "model minority."

In fact, on many university campuses around the country, Asian Americans soon became disproportionately represented. That is, it was common for 10%, 15%, or more of a university's student population to be of Asian ancestry at a time when Asians were only about 3% of the general population. This was also because the Asian American population is relatively young, so many more Asians were applying to college than before as well.

Nonetheless, many universities became alarmed at the growing Asian American student population on their campuses. So much so that once the Asian proportion of their student population reached 10%-15%, they began to reject Asian students who were clearly qualified. Soon, Asian Americans were accusing universities such as U.C. Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, and Brown of imposing a quota or upper limit on their admission numbers. After several protests and investigations, these universities admitted that there were problems with these admission policies but never admitted any deliberate wrongdoing.

And:

http://www.theroot.com/views/real-affirmative-action-babies

All economic indicators, higher education admissions’ practices, and corporate and law firm figures show that when it comes to leveling the playing field in the past 30 years, white women—not black men, black women or other persons of color—have gained the most ground.

Political theater plays best when you can stoke racial fears and use the images of “unqualified blacks and browns” admitted to schools through flawed affirmative action policies taking the “rightful” position of “better” qualified white students or professionals.

But the stark facts, according to a CNN Black in America 2 report, suggest that white women are the least negatively impacted by the struggling U.S. economy. The unemployment rate for white women is just 6.7 percent, compared with 9.1 percent—just below the national average—for white men, 11.1 percent for black and Latina women and 20 percent for black men.

For further reading:

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

Spread · 28-09-2011 02:49AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Great argument, really thought provoking and intriguing, i liked the way you challenged my opinion with your stellar answer, 5 stars, will read this post everyday for the rest of my life and marvel at its excellency.

I disagree tho, America is the most race obsessed and racist country in the world.

You are, and have been, talking mostly rubbish. What is your source? Drop The Enquirer, Globe and Gerry Springer and get an educated view of life in the States.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 02:50AM

ascanbe wrote: »

'Get more help..'. How quaint..whatever you think.

Well thats what it is isnt it?

ascanbe wrote: »

'Yet seem to be worse off than ever'; look around you; in the USA and all around the world, pretty much everyone is 'worse off than ever', in the context of about the last half-century.
And it's only going to get worse.

Uhmmmm wut? so your saying that the unfortunate position that black Americans find themselves in (incredibly high crime and unemployment rates etc) is because everyone is in the same boat worldwide? nah man.

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 02:56AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Excuse for the poor situation most black people are in.

Black people get more help now then ever, yet seem to be worse off then ever... what the hell is going on? obviously all these policy's are complete bull****, help make everyone equal by treating one group better then the others...

Really worse off?

http://www.jbhe.com/features/64_degreelevels.html

The sum of our story is that at all levels of higher education, from the community colleges straight through to the doctoral level, there is good news to report on degree attainments by African Americans. Yet much work needs to be done to improve the black student college graduation rate. Overall, the evidence clearly shows that large and increasing numbers of African Americans are attaining success in higher education.

I do acknowledge that African Americans have been hit extremely hard by the recession however your comments in this thread seem to portray African Americans as being the greatest recipients of all of these government and/or private programs when it is much more complex than that. I think your bias is showing.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 02:57AM

Spread wrote: »

You are, and have been, talking mostly rubbish. What is your source? Drop The Enquirer, Globe and Gerry Springer and get an educated view of life in the States.

Rubbish about what? please share your sources of truth wise wizard.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 02:59AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

Really worse off?

http://www.jbhe.com/features/64_degreelevels.html

The sum of our story is that at all levels of higher education, from the community colleges straight through to the doctoral level, there is good news to report on degree attainments by African Americans. Yet much work needs to be done to improve the black student college graduation rate. Overall, the evidence clearly shows that large and increasing numbers of African Americans are attaining success in higher education.

I do acknowledge that African Americans have been hit extremely hard by the recession however your comments in this thread seem to portray African Americans as being the greatest recipients of all of these government and/or private programs when it is much more complex than that. I think your bias is showing.

• More African Americans are under correctional control today -- in prison or jail, on probation or parole -- than were enslaved in 1850, a decade before the Civil War began.

• More black men were disenfranchised in 2004 than in 1870, the year the 15th Amendment was ratified, prohibiting laws that explicitly deny the right to vote on the basis of race.

• More than half of working-age African-American men in major urban areas -- according to one report, as much as 80 percent in Chicago -- have criminal records and are thus subject to legalized discrimination.

Source The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in an Age of Colorblindness.

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 02:59AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Well thats what it is isnt it?

Uhmmmm wut? so your saying that the unfortunate position that black Americans find themselves in (incredibly high crime and unemployment rates etc) is because everyone is in the same boat worldwide? nah man.

I'm Black American. I have a Bachelor of Arts in medieval history, a Juris Doctor (law degree), and I am completing a dissertation towards a MPhil from TCD. I grew up in a middle class household (up until my teens) where my mother was in the nursing profession and my father was a career officer in the military. Am I really in an unfortunate position?

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 03:06AM

jugger0 wrote: »

• More African Americans are under correctional control today -- in prison or jail, on probation or parole -- than were enslaved in 1850, a decade before the Civil War began.

• More black men were disenfranchised in 2004 than in 1870, the year the 15th Amendment was ratified, prohibiting laws that explicitly deny the right to vote on the basis of race.

• More than half of working-age African-American men in major urban areas -- according to one report, as much as 80 percent in Chicago -- have criminal records and are thus subject to legalized discrimination.

Source The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in an Age of Colorblindness.

And? There are also more Black millionaires in the United States than there were during slavery. That tends to happen when a population increases. As someone who has a foot in the legal profession, I am highly critical of our justice system but you are just throwing up statistics thinking that you are proving some point.

And the recent census shows that:

Black-owned firms grew faster -- both in number and sales -- than U.S. firms did as a whole over a five-year period, according to the latest data available from the Census Bureau.

The number of black-owned businesses increased 60% between 2002 and 2007, more than three times the growth seen among all firms, according to the Census Bureau's business owners survey. Meanwhile, sales jumped 55%, vs. 34% for all businesses.

A pretty good balance, I reckon.

guitarzero · 28-09-2011 03:13AM

People of the same "culture" barely work well together never mind other ones coming together.

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 03:15AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Well thats what it is isnt it?

Uhmmmm wut? so your saying that the unfortunate position that black Americans find themselves in (incredibly high crime and unemployment rates etc) is because everyone is in the same boat worldwide? nah man.

So what are you saying? What is your diagnosis for the number of black people/men mainly, in jail in America and the high rates of unemployment among black people in America?
I could give my opinion for why this is so but you only seem to be hinting at your opinion.
I don't know what you are getting at. Don't beat around the bush and don't hesitate to post the evidence that supports your case.
Are you suggesting that black people, or maybe just African-Americans, are congenitally predisposed towards committing crime and towards being unwilling to gain employment?
If that's your belief, then have the courage of your convictions.
Please post the evidence for this; i'm sure that if you do post compelling evidence then posters here will give it due consideration.
Don't hide behind the excuse, that so many others do, that you'll be done down by 'political correctness'.
Post compelling, logical evidence and we can go from there..

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 03:16AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Edit: and, by the way, if your beliefs stretch to the point where the 'blacks' in America 'aren't really Americans and are part of the problem of 'multiculturalism', you should probably take into account that most 'blacks' in America today, have ancestors that were slaves brought from Africa and that their ancestors were actually in America before the descendents of the Irish/Polish/Italian etc immigrants, that make up much of the current US population, many of whom currently consider themselves 'true' Americans, were ever there.

Thanks for the history lesson, so you're saying that black and white Americans share the same culture, are both equally proud patriots, yet one is far worse off in wealth,education all that good stuff... yet the only difference is their race.. so in fact it is safe to say that America IS one of the most racist countries in the world due to this mistreatment which is completely due to race so i was in fact right all along... Sound.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 03:19AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

I'm Black American. I have a Bachelor of Arts in medieval history, a Juris Doctor (law degree), and I am completing a dissertation towards a MPhil from TCD. I grew up in a middle class household (up until my teens) where my mother was in the nursing profession and my father was a career officer in the military. Am I really in an unfortunate position?

Cool story, but do you really think i meant 100% of black people when i said that? i mean come on.. are you denying that you're in the vast minority?

Killer Wench · 28-09-2011 03:26AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Cool story, but do you really think i meant 100% of black people when i said that? i mean come on.. are you denying that you're in the vast minority?

Considering that I will be in possession of three degrees, in comparison to much of the American population, I am in the vast minority.

Ultimately, my objection towards your posts is that, yes, America is an imperfect society, and, yes, there are still many gains to be made within many minority communities, but you can't dismiss the gains that have been made in the last 45 years - not 200 years - but 45 years.

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 03:32AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Thanks for the history lesson, so you're saying that black and white Americans share the same culture, are both equally proud patriots, yet one is far worse off in wealth,education all that good stuff... yet the only difference is their race.. so in fact it is safe to say that America IS one of the most racist countries in the world due to this mistreatment which is completely due to race so i was in fact right all along... Sound.

Nope, you aren't. That was due to law; and i never mentioned patriotism, which is irrelevant to this discussion.
You are the one suggesting that a country cannot ever harmonise because there was once a law that discriminated against certain people in that country; that would be like saying that men could never live with women in pretty much any current democratic country because t women were once prohibited, by law, from voting in these countries.
I find that notion preposterous; just as i find the idea of that 'multiculturalism' can't work preposterous.
As long as everyone, regardless of background/culture/belief feels they have a stake/say in any country, and as long as there is an agreed common law that binds people, then there's no problem.

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 03:37AM

ascanbe wrote: »

So what are you saying? What is your diagnosis for the number of black people/men mainly, in jail in America and the high rates of unemployment among black people in America?
I could give my opinion for why this is so but you only seem to be hinting at your opinion.
I don't know what you are getting at. Don't beat around the bush and don't hesitate to post the evidence that supports your case.
Are you suggesting that black people, or maybe just African-Americans, are congenitally predisposed towards committing crime and towards being unwilling to gain employment?
If that's your belief, then have the courage of your convictions.
Please post the evidence for this; i'm sure that if you do post compelling evidence then posters here will give it due consideration.
Don't hide behind the excuse, that so many others do, that you'll be done down by 'political correctness'.
Post compelling, logical evidence and we can go from there..

Are you saying that im saying that black people are congenitally predisposed to committing crimes? cos thats what it sounds like your saying to me?

why is it? you tell me cos i really dont know, its defiantly not because their great grandaddy was a slave anyway.

ascanbe · 28-09-2011 03:45AM

jugger0 wrote: »

Are you saying that im saying that black people are congenitally predisposed to committing crimes? cos thats what it sounds like your saying to me?

why is it? you tell me cos i really dont know, its defiantly not because their great grandaddy was a slave anyway.

Why are you asking me to tell you what you're attempting to articulate?
Helping you to do this would smack of affirmative action and i don't support that policy..

jugger0 · 28-09-2011 03:48AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Nope, you aren't. That was due to law; and i never mentioned patriotism, which is irrelevant to this discussion.
You are the one suggesting that a country cannot ever harmonise because there was once a law that discriminated against certain people in that country; that would be like saying that men could never live with women in pretty much any current democratic country because t women were once prohibited, by law, from voting in these countries.
I find that notion preposterous; just as i find the idea of that 'multiculturalism' can't work preposterous.

I am right tho, Where did i suggest that? America will never harmonize because for the most part different races stick together, cities,high schools colleges are all segregated, i said america is one of the most racist countries in the world and its quite obvious i am right.

ascanbe wrote: »

As long as everyone, regardless of background/culture/belief feels they have a stake/say in any country, and as long as there is an agreed common law that binds people, then there's no problem.

Where is this magical country?

Do multicultural societies work?

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